RE: A hunting story/Rant (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/21/2006 7:50:22 PM)

 
Hello A/all,

On a related note, the taste of wild buffalo, antelope, deer, rabbit, and even squirrel is what I would refer to as "sublime."

But then I like gamey flavors.

The only rattlesnake I ate was when I was hiking with 7 underpriveleged kids in the mountains, and rounding a turn I saw one in the trail.

Quickly dispatching it with a stick on it's head and my swiss army knife, I made the 7 dwarves eat it for dinner.  It had 9 rattles and was stringy and tough, but I will be the first to opine that it did not taste like chicken.

For the rest of my time with them, my nickname was Rattlesnake Killer.

Im not sure what it means, but it was rather amusing to me to prove that I could outsmart a 3.5 foot Pacific Diamondback Rattlesnake with superior tactics and technology.  It was a "smell the testosterone" sort of Kodak moment.

Sinergy



Najakcharmer -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/21/2006 11:05:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Im not sure what it means, but it was rather amusing to me to prove that I could outsmart a 3.5 foot Pacific Diamondback Rattlesnake with superior tactics and technology.  It was a "smell the testosterone" sort of Kodak moment.


Oh, good gods.  Crotalus oreganus are docile little things.  I barely bother with hooks to handle them, and to clean their cage or change their waterbowls, they can be laid gently on the floor and ignored until the cleaning's done.  Their brains are roughly the size of a split pea, so if you think that outsmarting one is a big deal, I'm afraid that your standards for yourself must be quite remarkably low.  [:D]

I have no respect for the notion that it is manly or smart to kill a small, docile buzzworm.  You might as well have stepped on a caterpillar.  Not impressive.  The Pacific rattlesnakes I picked up and played with - directly out of the wild -  rarely even objected much, and I was busily committing various scientific indignities on their persons.  As I stated to an annoying redneck with a missing finger who was bragging about killing this rattlesnake and making a hatband out of it, I could easily make a live hatband out of the same animal with no great fuss.  While I was wearing the hat.  So you'll pardon me if I see absolutely nothing to admire about killing one.  There's simply no reason to do it.  They are not particularly good to eat, and they are certainly not a threat to anyone who doesn't step directly on them or attack them first. 

I've spent a lot of time in very close proximity to these animals, and they are just not at all aggressive.  There are a few North American Crotalus that are a bit quicker on the defensive trigger and worth giving a slightly wider berth to, but oreganus isn't one of them.  At one time I had at least one specimen and usually two or three in every color phase and subspecies of oreganus in one room.  As I recall that was a nice quiet place to work since none of the lazy little worms cared enough to rattle.  Unlike the atrox next door, who were the Carmen Miranda maracca chorus that never quit.

The Pacific rattlesnakes aren't a diamondback; that's atrox or ruber, wrong geographical area.  They used to be in the viridis complex until recent mtDNA work split them off.  I'm not sure if you are referring to oreganus oreganus or oreganus helleri, but they're pretty close taxonomically and in temperment. 

Snakes are not game animals suitable for sustainable harvest; they are top level predators with a low reproductive rate that play a crucial role in the ecosystem.  You might as well shoot and eat some bald eagles instead - it accomplishes the same thing.  



seeksfemslave -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 1:50:46 AM)

Julietsierra points out what she sees as hypocracy of those who oppose hunting for fun and who then eat or wear animal products.

It is well known, I hope, that animals may be treated in a disgusting callous manner when being "prepared"  for human consumption eg battery farming, cruelty in slaughterhouses, I am not clear why this justifies either getting all togged up and  blasting hundreds if not thousands of pheasants out of the sky, as the English aristos and visiting wealthy Americans are wont to do or any other hunting/killing for pleasure that you may know about.

I cannot deny that hunting for food/clothing is an entirely different matter and obviously as societies have developed in complexity the hunting individual has evolved into the food corporation.



Sinergy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 4:56:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Im not sure what it means, but it was rather amusing to me to prove that I could outsmart a 3.5 foot Pacific Diamondback Rattlesnake with superior tactics and technology.  It was a "smell the testosterone" sort of Kodak moment.


Oh, good gods.  Crotalus oreganus are docile little things.  I barely bother with hooks to handle them, and to clean their cage or change their waterbowls, they can be laid gently on the floor and ignored until the cleaning's done.  Their brains are roughly the size of a split pea, so if you think that outsmarting one is a big deal, I'm afraid that your standards for yourself must be quite remarkably low.  [:D]



I would probably be the first to insist that my standards for myself are remarkably low.

Having said that, I normally would not bother a rattlesnake, or at this point in my life, pretty much anything else going about it's business.  But I had the seven dwarves to think about.  11 year old boys from the inner city with older siblings or parents incarcerated, dead, or drug addicted, stuck with me on a week long backpack so I could try to reach them and have them leave the camp with the idea that there is more to life than inner city violence, drugs, and a dead end life.

The rattlesnake did not give it's life to simply satisfy some carnal need on my part to exterminate living things.  I ended up cooking it and fed it to the seven dwarves in order to give them a memory of a world completely outside the paradigm they grew up with.  Perhaps I reached one or two of them and they escaped the cycle of violence they were being raised in to.

Sinergy




Sinergy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 5:11:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
But to make the point that you are doing it to "thin the herd" or "deal with deer overpopulation" or some other nonsense fails to take into account that deer did just fine for thousands and thousands of years before white man invaded the New World.


Actually, they didn't, always.  Ecosystems change as populations rise and fall in response to various events, ranging from climate changes to drought to invasive species.  Human impact on ecosystems has caused more disruption in a shorter time than ever before, but human impact is definitely not the sole cause of ecosystem disruption or population imbalances.  It's just the most common and catastrophic cause in this century.



Depends on how long a time line you want to examine the problem from.

When human beings crossed the arctic ice bridge from Asia, they encountered a continent with large mammals who had never been exposed to human hunting tactics.  Over the next few thousands of years, human beings systematically exterminated the large mammals that lived here.  With the development of firearms in the last few centuries, human beings embarked on an extermination of the large sized predators on this continent.

As you stated, ecosystems are incredibly tightly interconnected.  Human beings messed with this one, and now the only solution apparently is to issue deer licenses to cull the herd.

The problem we have out in California involves the mountain lion.  This large sized roaming predator was exterminated wholesale up until the mid 1970s, the reason most frequently given was to protect rancher's cattle, when environmental activists got it moved to the endangered species list. 

So now it's numbers are rebounding, largely due to the animal it tends to eat the most, coyotes, being an overpopulating nuisance that many people complain about.  But people keep expanding out into the area that was once the mountain lions.  So now people get up in arms because Lassie gets picked up and carried off by a large puma and they want mountain lions killed.

Population pressures have resulted in the need for people to do things like cull deer herds to protect young growth plants and mass die-offs of deer populations.

I am not saying I have issues with killing Bambi, simply attempting to point out that the problem is bigger than killing Bambi will solve...

Sinergy



caitlyn -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 5:30:45 AM)

General Response - Does the reason someone hunts, really matter?
 
I don't hunt myself, but if someone gets off on trophy hunting ... they should go for it. Animals get hurt. Guess what, things get hurt in this world. Almost anything that gets someone off ... gets something else hurt. We here like BDSM, and discussing it on the internet. All activities that get nobody hurt ... right? Well, wrong actually. The leather gear used in BDSM, cost animals their lives. The internet, and the unprecidented access to pornography, including BDSM pornography ... well tell me, what do you really think happens to the 100+ thousand runaway teen girls in America every year?
 
Quick highjack for Synergy ... the Spinal Tap character from your quote is David St. Hubbins.



Najakcharmer -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 8:28:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Having said that, I normally would not bother a rattlesnake, or at this point in my life, pretty much anything else going about it's business.  But I had the seven dwarves to think about.  11 year old boys from the inner city with older siblings or parents incarcerated, dead, or drug addicted, stuck with me on a week long backpack so I could try to reach them and have them leave the camp with the idea that there is more to life than inner city violence, drugs, and a dead end life.


Admirable for you to give your time and energy to that cause.  Would have been even more admirable to leave the young boys with the message that they could co-exist peacefully with other living things without needing to solve problems by violence.

quote:

The rattlesnake did not give it's life to simply satisfy some carnal need on my part to exterminate living things.  I ended up cooking it and fed it to the seven dwarves in order to give them a memory of a world completely outside the paradigm they grew up with.  Perhaps I reached one or two of them and they escaped the cycle of violence they were being raised in to.


The lesson you were teaching was one of solving problems by violence.  It's the same concept whether that violence is against man or nature.  When I educate people about snakes, I show them that by approaching calmly without fear or anger, the "enemy" becomes a valuable ally.  Perhaps that would have been a better lesson to teach.  I'd think a martial artist would understand that. 

I don't think you can teach people successfully that problems can be solved peacefully by directing their violence against nature or against an animal.  The paradigm of looking for violent solutions doesn't change because you've redirected its target.  A snake is percieved as an enemy to be defeated, but the fact is that it is only an enemy if human fear and hatred create that emnity in the first place.  Deal with the temporary obstacle in a calm and gentle manner, and it is not an enemy at all.

Part of what locks people into a cycle of violence is that they create their own enemies with their attitude and behavior.  There is no better example of that than how humans foolishly make enemies of wild animals that would not have voluntarily attacked a human had they not been forced to defend themselves from humans who attacked them first. 



Najakcharmer -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 8:32:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
When human beings crossed the arctic ice bridge from Asia, they encountered a continent with large mammals who had never been exposed to human hunting tactics.  Over the next few thousands of years, human beings systematically exterminated the large mammals that lived here.  With the development of firearms in the last few centuries, human beings embarked on an extermination of the large sized predators on this continent.


There is still some argument on the subject of whether or not that early human migration was the cause of mass large mammal extinctions, but I don't doubt it was a contributing cause. 

quote:

As you stated, ecosystems are incredibly tightly interconnected.  Human beings messed with this one, and now the only solution apparently is to issue deer licenses to cull the herd. [...] I am not saying I have issues with killing Bambi, simply attempting to point out that the problem is bigger than killing Bambi will solve...


I agree heartily.  I will also state that buying, preserving and appropriately managing land as a hunting/trapping/fishing conservation area may be the *only* viable way in some areas to save habitat intact so that any of the species in that local ecosystem can survive in a modernized and commercialized world. 



sophia37 -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 9:55:08 AM)

In NY state the deer also destroy any regeneration of forest products. Consider Ginseng, which is now protected since its become so rare, walnut trees, herbal plants, costly shrubs. etc etc. Theres more to land use than agricultural farming. Its become a very serious problem for us here.  And anymore, there are not enough hunters to keep the population down. Hunting has become taboo in oh so many ways. 



philosophy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 10:04:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
 Almost anything that gets someone off ... gets something else hurt.


.....not sure i can agree with that sentiment Caitlyn, it seems to me to be a too-easy cop out to justify things that would otherwise be unjustifiable.....but in a big world, with many ways of organising society, perhaps thats what it really is like where you live. i would argue that going into the bush, hunting and tracking some shy creature that might bite and then taking a really good photo of it doesn't hurt anyone.....unless it's a digital picture, in which case i pity those poor kodak stock-holders.



caitlyn -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 11:20:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
.....not sure i can agree with that sentiment Caitlyn, it seems to me to be a too-easy cop out to justify things that would otherwise be unjustifiable.....but in a big world, with many ways of organising society, perhaps thats what it really is like where you live.


Why do you insist on assuming again and again, that anyone pointing something out, is justifying it?
 
That isn't the case, just so you know ... and respectfully, if you would take a moment to try to understand that, you might spend less time calling people things like 'fascist', on this board.



philosophy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 11:38:31 AM)

ok Caitlyn........mind you, if you posted stuff you actually believed then answering the words you type would be a lot less problematic.



caitlyn -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 11:50:03 AM)

I'm pretty sure I did ... line two starts with, "I don't hunt myself." I can't be more clear ... actions speak louder than words.
 
Without making this a pissing match, I do think several posters here, have a habit of taking a single line of posted information, posted informationally, and assuming the poster is presenting it as a hill worth dying on.
 
Perhaps we can just make the logical leap, that admitting the existance of something, no more justifies it, than refusing to accept it's existance, makes it go away.



philosophy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 12:02:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


 
...I do think several posters here, have a habit of taking a single line of posted information, posted informationally, and assuming the poster is presenting it as a hill worth dying on.
Perhaps we can just make the logical leap, that admitting the existance of something, no more justifies it, than refusing to accept it's existance, makes it go away.


(my italics)

..and it is on this precise point Caitlyn, that you and i fundamentally disagree. To accept the existence of something as nebulous as an inevitable relationship between pleasure and pain, or the political doctrine of might makes rights, as unavoidable dictums helps to make them true. By challenging such perceptions and finding alternate ways to percieve the universe we have a chance of evolving. You, of course, are entirely entitled to your opinion.......and equally entitled to express it......as am i.

......and now back to the thread........it seems to me there is a clear moral and ethical difference between violence for violences sake, and violence to either defend or feed oneself. Perhaps, as humans, we have some way to go before we can seperate these issues...but history suggests that one day we may.......the Roman gladiatorial contests have, after all, largely been replaced with far less lethal sports. It just may take a few hundred years before we stop killing things for 'fun'.........



caitlyn -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 12:21:36 PM)

I didn't say accept ... I said admit.
 
I give up ... you are, what you are.



Sinergy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/22/2006 3:01:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

A snake is percieved as an enemy to be defeated, but the fact is that it is only an enemy if human fear and hatred create that emnity in the first place.  



Actually, and I explained this to them prior to killing the snake.  I was not killing an enemy to be feared.  I was killing a lunch so I could show them how to prepare, cook, and consume it.

I took quite a bit of time while we ate it to explain that everything is interconnected with everything else like a 3 legged stool.  Knock out one part of it and the whole structure collapses.

Sinergy



ScooterTrash -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/23/2006 3:37:30 AM)

quote:

Yesterday was Opening Day here...
 
Erin....Shawna bagged her a buck yesterday morning, with her Jeep. Now it's totaled, she has a bump on her head and my truck is loaned out. Luckily she is fine other than a bit shaken up, but the outcome could have been much worse. All the more reason why I would rather see a hunter have a freezer full of meat, than motorists having to run an obstacle course on the highway because of overcrowding in the woods. Those who think they are just "too cute to shoot", apparently haven't had to call their insurance company lately about an uninsured deer trashing out their vehicle.



mistoferin -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/23/2006 4:16:24 AM)

Awwww.....tell her I'm sorry and give her hugs for me.

Car deer accidents are a huge problem. On the third morning of the season I drove out to the land that I hunt. I couldn't pull into the driveway of the property because a vehicle was blocking my way. A woman had just hit an 8 point that was coming off the property. (guess what deer that most likely was!) She was upset. Her car was totalled and to make matters worse the deer was severely injured but had managed to crawl off into the field. Her son was on her way to track it and kill it. Not exactly the most humane way to die. Her husband couldn't come because he had totalled his truck out hitting a deer just the night before. Someone on this thread made mention of 80 lb. deer....I'm not sure what deer they are looking at. I would have estimated that buck to be about 250. Hit that at 55 miles an hour and you have one big mess. The woman was lucky because the deer had actually caved in part of her windshield. An injured deer in your lap could be a very dangerous situation.



Sinergy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/23/2006 8:03:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

Yesterday was Opening Day here...
 
Erin....Shawna bagged her a buck yesterday morning, with her Jeep. Now it's totaled, she has a bump on her head and my truck is loaned out. Luckily she is fine other than a bit shaken up, but the outcome could have been much worse. All the more reason why I would rather see a hunter have a freezer full of meat, than motorists having to run an obstacle course on the highway because of overcrowding in the woods. Those who think they are just "too cute to shoot", apparently haven't had to call their insurance company lately about an uninsured deer trashing out their vehicle.


I am not sure what part of the country she is in, Scootertrash, but it does remind me of the trauma a few years back that the many of the local ranchers up in the Yellowstone region of Montana experienced when the forest service talked about importing wolves from Canada to reintroduce wolves to that national forest.

Wolves, bears, and mountain lions are all wonderfully beautiful as well, and do a bang-up job keeping deer populations in check.

Please give my condolences to your friend with the busted up jeep.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: A hunting story/Rant (11/23/2006 8:06:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Someone on this thread made mention of 80 lb. deer....I'm not sure what deer they are looking at. I would have estimated that buck to be about 250.



I have never hunted deer, mistoferin, and the comment I made about 80 pounds refers to a comment a hunter friend of mine made years back about how much meat one can get out of the deer he shoots.

He gave me some.  It was quite tasty.

Sinergy



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