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sadism and masochism - 11/27/2006 11:16:07 PM

fantasmagorical

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if masochism is as defined by dictionary.com
    gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degredation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself

and sadistic is
    gratification gained through causing pain or degredation to others
    any enjoyment in bewing cruel

then would the pain of a masochist really be considered grounds for gratification for a sadist if the saidist knows the masochist enjoys it? since a masochist enjoys it then there is, technically, no cruelty involved right? shouldn't the point at which a masochist feels the need to call their safeword be the point at which a sadist beings to be gratified?

i ask because i am a masochist in that i get extreme sexual gratification from pain but there is a point at which it is too much and ceases to be anything but just pain.
on the other hand i have a cruel streak, sadistic, but it is not something that presents itself in situations that are sexual. my cruel streak comes out in a very psychological sense and the sexual energy that it produces is not related to whoever was at the other end of my cruelty.
i am quite aware that the ways in which sadism and masochism manifest in people can vary widely. i suppose what i am really wondering is, do i need to narrow my search down to a specific type of masochist or change it altogether to find someone who is gratified by giving someone else gratification.

perhaps i am just thinking on this too hard and college is making me crazy.

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/27/2006 11:23:38 PM

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I always figured the worst thing (cruelest) a sadist could do to a masochist is nothing at all, but even that could be drawn into a circular argument if the frustration the masochist feels has a positive side :)

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(in reply to fantasmagorical)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 4:36:45 AM

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a quick response... if I get time later... I will put more effort into the post....

first.... the inflicting of pain is a sensation caused upon another.

second... Gratification is an emotional response, which may be a reflection of the moment, future or past

Just because a masocist has an emotional response that is positive doesn't equate that the sadist hasn't inflicted a sensation that is considered to be pain.

Just because a masocist has endured pain in one moment.. doesn't mean they can't feel gratification the next moment with regards to the last moment. OR... even look forward with gratification for the moment of pain to come.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 4:53:34 AM

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Knight - I had the same problem on this one. I know what I want to say, but am having the devil of a time trying to put it into words! But I think I'm thinking along the same lines as you - its irrelevant to the sadist that the masochist likes it, as the sadist is getting their buzz from their own psyche in inflicting whatever it is.

E

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RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 5:38:55 AM

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I don't find it irrelivent at all, my sadisic side does't get much feeding at all while the person I am working is enjoying the sensation, (there is another at of me that is), it starts to get interesting for my inner sadist when I cross that line and the pain stops being enjoyable for them.
Now to maintain my self image I have to now that something in the person is also being fed even if it is not being enjoyed at the moment.
In some cases it is the service aspect of the other person that is being fed they are providing me with the service of someone to endure the pain my inner sadist wants to dish out.

Now granted I use a fairly tight definition of sadist not the politicly sanitized one that many use.

It's fairly common for people to shift the definitions to suit their identity rather than shift their selves to fit the definition.

< Message edited by Archer -- 11/28/2006 5:39:47 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 5:45:47 AM

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I am a sadist and My sub is a masochist. I am more then happy to give him pain and he is more then happy to receive it. So at the point in time when I am happily beating him, yes I am getting what I need and so is he.

Where my sadism comes into play is my sub has a huge need for perfection. So when he is giving me a pedicure and gets paint on the skin, or smudges it, I get my sadist jollies tsking his inability to get it right, which he has a bit of inner turmoil over. Bingo...a pain that he doesn't like that gives me the giggles. Oh he gets it right eventually to which he gets praised, its just fun to ride him a bit along the way.

Thats how it works for us.

~Lashra

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“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

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RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 6:53:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fantasmagorical

if masochism is as defined by dictionary.com
    gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degredation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself

and sadistic is
    gratification gained through causing pain or degredation to others
    any enjoyment in bewing cruel

I think you're basing your ideas on the second definition of sadistic...to which there isn't a corresponding definition under masochist. The first definition of sadistic is more appropriately paired with the definition of masochist. Thus, mutual satisfaction is also appropriate. Could just be me and my symantics, though.

Master Fire

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(in reply to fantasmagorical)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 7:08:48 AM

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Reposted regarding sadism:
Generally- sadists enjoy pain in others.

Causing it? Usually. But I know plenty of sadists who can enjoy simply watching anothers pain and feeding off of it just as well.

Type of pain? I know plenty of sadists who still get a thrill at someones pain whether it's consensual or not. Unethical sadists are very dangerous people. However, in the scene, most sadists are ethical and so, even if they ENJOY pain produced non consensually, they will not actually DO that.

As well, what a lot of people call sadists, I call fluffy sadists. They don't want to ACTUALLY cause the other person pain- they want the other person to enjoy it, to fly from it, to have a pleasureable experience. For me a sadist is someone who wants the other person to be in PAIN- NOT enjoying it directly at all.

And of course, the mental or physical. Sadism generally refers to physical pain as mental and emotional pain gets so complicated with so many different causes and gray lines (Is it ok to make your slave cry by talking about her dead grandmother?) that it makes it a tricky topic overall. But certainly, some enjoy both.

As always, just goes to show that you can't tell much beyond the basics of a person with just a label.

Reposted regarding masochism:
For me masochism = gaining direct pleasure from what is generally considered to be physically painful

The physical experiences that most people consider "painful" is directly converted into a pleasureable experience. How or why I have no idea- I wish I did.

Then you have people like me- I love everything about pain play EXCEPT the pain part. The pain part sucks. I'm not a masochist- I get no DIRECT pleasure from physically painful experiences.

But I love the marks, the attention, the being passive, the endurance, the submission for THEIR pleasure, the fear, the being used....I love all of those INDIRECTLY. So for me, it's the gaining of all of those indirect things that make the pain experience worthwhile for me.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_525044/mpage_1/key_fluffy%252Csadist/tm.htm#525222
sadist

http://www.collarchat.com/m_583606/mpage_1/key_masochists/tm.htm#583687
Extreme sensation play, what's hot about that for you?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_204732/mpage_1/key_except%252Cpain/tm.htm#204762
why experience pain and what motivates a sub to enjoy it?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_284469/mpage_1/key_except%252Cpain/tm.htm#284905
masochistic vs non masochistic

http://www.collarchat.com/m_428681/mpage_1/key_except%252Cpain/tm.htm#428697
masochism

http://www.collarchat.com/m_514097/mpage_1/key_except%252Cpain/tm.htm#514099
is it the pain or the act of submission?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_99877/mpage_1/key_masochism/tm.htm#99877
ds vs s&m

http://www.collarchat.com/m_319334/mpage_1/key_masochism/tm.htm#319334
question on masochism #1

http://www.collarchat.com/m_319343/mpage_1/key_masochism/tm.htm#319343
question on masochism #2

http://www.collarchat.com/m_475218/mpage_1/key_masochism/tm.htm#475218
masochism and submission, is there a conflict?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_344784/mpage_1/key_masochist/tm.htm#344784
good pain/bad pain...blurred lines?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_221596/mpage_1/key_masochist/tm.htm#221596
sensation slut

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 11/28/2006 7:09:16 AM >

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(in reply to fantasmagorical)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 8:02:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fantasmagorical

if masochism is as defined by dictionary.com
   gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degredation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself

and sadistic is
   gratification gained through causing pain or degredation to others
   any enjoyment in bewing cruel

then would the pain of a masochist really be considered grounds for gratification for a sadist if the saidist knows the masochist enjoys it? since a masochist enjoys it then there is, technically, no cruelty involved right?

Sometimes the things we experience defy the very structure of our language and restricts what we experience and know to what can be described. Imo, until someone skilled with words can come up something clever enough to convey this pain-pleasure phenomenon, this seemingly paradox is better left in pandora's box.

(in reply to fantasmagorical)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 11:45:07 AM

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I don't like the term sadist very much. The real life Marquis de Sade was religious. He felt that what he did was an offense against God. He was wracked with guilt. A modern day D/s Master is hardly likely to feel very guilty over whipping his girl. Embarassed if the neighbors hear you - yes. But guilty - no.

Also in the media the term sadist is usually an adjective for serial-killer or psychopath.

I don't think much of the term masochist either. Many girls who lack much experience think they don't like pain even though they recognize that they are attracted to BDSM. They think there are two types of women - normal ones like themselves and those depraved pain-slut girls they read about on sites like this one.

I don't think its like that at all. Leaving aside for the moment the three percent or so of the population who are homosexual and also the population of FemDoms and male-subs, I think "normal" or at least the predominant form of human sex involves the man giving pain to the woman. There are dozens of mammal species for which this is known to be true - including domestic cats. Stripped of ideological preconceptions, all women seem to enjoy being spanked.

If receiving pain from a man is part of a woman's natural sexual response why do we need a special word?

(in reply to MistressDolly)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 11:55:08 AM

LW3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AGORANTE

If receiving pain from a man is part of a woman's natural sexual response why do we need a special word?

to being able to discriminate those that fit that special word definition.

(sorry about the joke)

(in reply to AGORANTE)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 12:28:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AGORANTE
Embarassed if the neighbors hear you - yes. But guilty - no.

Actually I find the opposite. Most sadists go through a harsh period of guilt over their desires, and need to overcome them. Most of them do so by playing only with people who will enjoy what they give- the fluffy sadists.

quote:

I think "normal" or at least the predominant form of human sex involves the man giving pain to the woman. There are dozens of mammal species for which this is known to be true - including domestic cats.

Analogies always have their place, but physical domination of another being (what takes place in those mammal species you speak of) usually has some pain to go along with it and that does not in any way mean that sex is integral to pain.

Humans tend to have less need to resort to physical means of seduction and force to pro-create.

quote:

Stripped of ideological preconceptions, all women seem to enjoy being spanked.

I obviously don't have to tell you that nature itself abhors universality.

quote:

If receiving pain from a man is part of a woman's natural sexual response why do we need a special word?

Labels are labels. Why do we need a special word for "sorrow" even if it's a natural response to loss? We label something in order to communicate an idea and grow closer in our communication.

Most people hate some form of labels.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to AGORANTE)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 1:07:29 PM

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This is a curiousity to me as well - am i a masochist or just submissive? And is submission in itself a form of masochism since it can, at times, require the denial of one's desires, pleasures, will, which could be considered a psychological form of masochism? In terms of actual pain, i do enjoy some, but it's more intense sensation i like than real pain. There are more S&m things i don't like than do. i've been called a mild masochist.

When the pain builds, what i start feeling is "Master please i'll do whatever You want, just stop." But i don't say that because my overwhelming desire is to submit and to please Him. Ultimately, for me it's more about being dominated and controlled than it is about really liking higher levels of pain. Yet, if someone asks me "are you a masochist?" i would say yes, because i like submitting to the will of another, particularly when there's a great deal more pleasure for them then for me.

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RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 7:12:34 PM

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I have to disagree with you about "all" women enjoy being spanked. I know a few who do not like it at all. I know alot of men who do enjoy it. I think its very individual, just as are personalities.

~Lashra

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“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to AGORANTE)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/28/2006 10:26:16 PM

secretdesires66

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Who really cares as long as everyone involved gets what they need. What is a part of someones psychie, whether it is giving or receiving, is there whether it is lable sadism or masochism. Everyone is one or the other or both to some point .

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RE: sadism and masochism - 11/29/2006 12:57:34 AM

LW3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: secretdesires66

Who really cares as long as everyone involved gets what they need. What is a part of someones psychie, whether it is giving or receiving, is there whether it is lable sadism or masochism. Everyone is one or the other or both to some point .

I bet for both.

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RE: sadism and masochism - 11/29/2006 4:36:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Knight - I had the same problem on this one. I know what I want to say, but am having the devil of a time trying to put it into words! But I think I'm thinking along the same lines as you - its irrelevant to the sadist that the masochist likes it, as the sadist is getting their buzz from their own psyche in inflicting whatever it is.

E

I am not saying that it is irrelevant.... but I am saying that gratification and the pain doesn't occur in the same moment... but can occur in the same scene.

I have taken something my girl enjoys in a sensational way... and used it to the point of pain... in that moment of pain they get to the point of wanting it to stop... they can't endure it anymore... but they do... I cause the pain... I love it. I love getting to that specific moment in time... there is me and the pain. My masocist partners before and after that moment will feel gratifications.... before it is excitement and nervousness... a postive energy indeed... afterwords... it' full of relief and conquest and pride of enduring... oh yeah... can't forget about that nasty natural high *G*.

A scene is moments of time... and that time is a wave of emotions and actions. .. it is not flat and one thought or feeling.

Because of this wave of emotions and actions... you have what appears to be absolutely conflicting motivations occuring in the same scene.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/29/2006 8:13:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: AGORANTE
Embarassed if the neighbors hear you - yes. But guilty - no.

Actually I find the opposite. Most sadists go through a harsh period of guilt over their desires, and need to overcome them. Most of them do so by playing only with people who will enjoy what they give- the fluffy sadists.

Hi LuckyAlbatross, I’m curious whether you know why they feel guilty?

To me, sadist/masochists activities are a two-way street wherein both the giver and receiver engage in mutually gratifying activities. Nothing is being done against the masochists will, in fact, the masochists desires the experience, needs the experience to feel alive and more importantly to have an avenue with which to demonstrate the depth of his devotion to his master (among other things). It seems to me a beautiful, harmonious, balanced, spiritual, erotic engagement.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: sadism and masochism - 11/29/2006 8:33:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDolly
Hi LuckyAlbatross, I’m curious whether you know why they feel guilty?

Partially because it goes against what they have been taught is good and right. Just like most subs go through feeling guilty for wanting to be humiliated, depraved or do all sorts of "nasty" things, most sadists go through the same. We're taught the creating pain is something that is bad, something to avoid. You don't hurt the ones you love if you can help it.

So there's a lot of social training conflicting with innate desires there.

The other part is that they tend to have very dark and bad ideas. They are worried about going TOO FAR, their own desires horrify them to an extent and they are afraid if they let the cat out of the cage it will go completely wild on them and lose control. Even if nothing like this HAS happened, the worry over it and knowing that part of them really WANTS it to happen can be more than enough to cause serious guilt issues.

Oh and I'm talking about sadists- who want the other person to HURT, to NOT LIKE IT, to HATE IT, to be TORTURED by it. Yes, for ethical sadists, they require consent from the person so they know they ACCEPT the pain...but it's not at all what the other person desires, they don't want the pain to feel alive, to prove any submission. They don't want the pain, the pain does nothing for them except make them hurt.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 11/29/2006 8:34:51 AM >

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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RE: sadism and masochism - 11/29/2006 11:03:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Partially because it goes against what they have been taught is good and right.

I understand what you mean regarding society's conventions of what constitutes right and wrong being engraved in us but I wonder whether those in the lifestyle are more likely than not to step outside the box to draw their own conclusions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
The other part is that they tend to have very dark and bad ideas. They are worried about going TOO FAR, ....

As you pointed out, there has to be communication regarding boundaries, of course, but after that ... I'm not sure how a sadist could feel "bad" when what he is doing is giving the masochist exactly what the machosist is agreeing to recieve (for whatever the masochist's reasons)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Oh and I'm talking about sadists- who want the other person to HURT, to NOT LIKE IT, to HATE IT, to be TORTURED by it.

It's mutual imo. There's no giving unless there's a taking. The sadist imo wants to deliver pain for, yes his own satisfaction, but also because he knows he's feeding the masochist what the masochist is hungry for. Some masochists may not like the pain but he wants the pain and the torture or else he would not be there receiving it. It would cease to exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
...but it's not at all what the other person desires, they don't want the pain to feel alive, to prove any submission.

I don't agree. For some it is about just that.... and for some -not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
They don't want the pain, the pain does nothing for them except make them hurt.

So the only thing the pain does for them is make them hurt which means they want the hurt (for their own reasons) or else why would they agree to it. Again there's no giving pain unless there's a taking of pain and since the sadist engages in mutually consented to activies with the masochists - the masochist is getting what he wants.

How nice of the sadists to give the masochists exactly what they want.

< Message edited by MistressDolly -- 11/29/2006 11:05:41 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

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