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"Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:00:35 AM

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thetammyjo posted a great discussion about life's paths. In a later response, she said, "I did want to say that for me I do not feel I could force someone to stay with me because of my personal moral code." It got me to thinking and I didn't want to hijack her thread.

What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

My thoughts: In the end, we cannot force anyone to do anything, nor can we be forced if we truly, truly don't want to do it. There are consequences for choosing not to, but, we can choose those. Case in point: you can hold a gun to my head and tell me I have to do something in order to live. I have the choice to do it or be shot. Same thing if you help the gun on someone else and told me that they'd be shot if I didn't comply. It would all depend on what I was willing to "sell" (doing whatever) in order to get what I wanted (life) that would define my willingness to be "forced". But, in the end, it's MY choice to do, or not...not your choice...you've merely uped the ante and have, or haven't, convinced me that it's worth it.

Master Fire

< Message edited by MasterFireMaam -- 12/5/2006 11:14:56 AM >

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:08:13 AM

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From: Fort Wayne Indiana
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quote:

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it?

Hmm going to have to expand on this a bit please.

Physically, I have been forced to do something that I did not want to do ( in regards to relationship/slavery)

Morally and eithically, I have been forced to do something that I did want to do, but had no choice in the matter.

edited because I can not spell

< Message edited by Kalira -- 12/5/2006 11:14:08 AM >

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:13:37 AM

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If I truely didn't want to do something I would not do it. I have some very non-negotiable limites. I have had a few Dom's who wanted to bag a few of my limites off the list. They learned very fast that not only will I NOT break the limit....I may break them for trying to get me to break it.

This is 2006. Our freakin Gold fish have rights. Unless someone has you locked in a basement tied up with masking tape and has a gun to your head you cannot be forced into anything.

I will say this however. This is touchy and I want to make sure I word this correctly. I have found that some submissives are just not capable of saying no. They are lacking major self esteem and have other issues to boot. I have a hard time saying "No". That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about are the subs out there who are willing in a way to trade limites for affection or a place at your side. I do fear for them as they would be easy prey for a predator. I don't know to what limit these subs would break, but i'm sure they were "forced" in a way to do things they did not want to do.

Is it really consentual when you know your playing with someone who isn't all togther and you could if you wanted with little force and or guilt make them do things they didn't want to do. They are adults, you did not point a gun to their head........but are you really not responsiable?

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:15:34 AM

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I edited the post....

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Kalira)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:16:15 AM

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I am in agreement with you. I dont think anyone is really ever forced to anything its just a matter of choosing even if the choices are bad. As a Dom I really feel as though I can
never force someone to do something against there will. Submission is something thats given and if the sub cant do what I need then there are others out there that I am sure will.

(in reply to Kalira)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:18:53 AM

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It really depends on what's being asked.
A hard limit means that the particular activity is something the person will not do and never force anyone else to do.
There are softer limits that might be able to be pushed. But again, caution has to be used.

(in reply to Kalira)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:24:40 AM

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quote:

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

LOL thank you

In regards to all of them ( physically, morally, and ethically ), NO, I did not feel like I had a choice.

In regards to being physically forced, it was with my first Master. Basically, I wanted to learn, so, he showed me, physically, what happens when I was disrespectful, and disobedient in a willful and hostile way

On that one, he literally beat my ass until I did what he wanted ( and it was nothing huge that he wanted, I just got it in my mind that I was in no way going to do it ).

Could I have left the relationship because of this? No, basically, I was happy with the relationship and with his way of teaching. Harsh and painful, yes, but it was still my choice to stay.

With Master now. The answer is the same. No. I gave up my rights in that regard when I became his property.

As for the others...let's just say that I chose the lesser of two evils.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:25:02 AM

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quote:

What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

M.F. Maam,
Force someone? If there an opposite to that position it defines my version of Dominance. I require my slave to ask and or beg for the privilege of doing something. I have many expectations but no demands, other than to live and behave as I expect.

Prior to accepting her I made sure that beth knew the expectations in great detail. Many issues come fell under the physical expectations, but there were plenty of expectations on the mental and emotional aspects of the proposed relationship as well. The process in her case was long because she had no 'lifestyle' reference point. My cynicism was deep because the opposite was true. I had plenty of lifestyle reference but no indication that what I wanted could be achieved in a relationship long term.

Not only do I believe that applying force is counter productive to a long term relationship, but I feel the application of force can also be a good source of frustration. What are the limits of force? How is a Dominant served by having to apply force to achieve desired result? I have another word for the application of force to achieve a result; it's 'work'. Sure working hard for a goal can be rewarding, but in a relationship the effort should be a toward common goal not forced. Not to be confused with "training" where the common goal is to be better or less intimidated by a specific behavior or 'skill'. Is it semantics to say we enjoy ongoing "training" but avoid "work"? You can decide that.

For us, and only indicating our relationship; we 'work' as a couple because there is no "force" involved on either side of the flogger.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:33:49 AM

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Does anyone else like Mortgage Foreclosure play, or am I the only one?

J. P. Morgan

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:34:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

Physically, sure.

And while you can't FORCE someone to do something emotionally or mentally...you sure can fuck someone over pretty badly and be really vicious if you want. Some people are more prone to getting fucked over than others, but there's always a way to fuck you over if they want.

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(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 11:57:28 AM

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Forcing someone to do something that is against their moral code or ethics is not my idea of dominance. Forcing, in and of itself, is not my idea of dominance, but that's another conversation entirely. While I enjoy being the temptress and seeing how far I can take someone down a path, the path ends at the line where I know they would be compromising their values.

For instance, I would never ask a recovering addict or alcoholic to use drugs or drink, I wouldn't ask a married partner to violate their wedding vows, and so on. My sub is a vegetarian and if I asked her to eat meat she would, but I know the reasons behind her being a vegetarian and I wouldn't want to be the cause of her breaking that practice.

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Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:04:08 PM

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quote:

Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

I always have a choice.
A choice may bring about unfortunate or unpleasant consequences, but I have the choice.

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(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:04:41 PM

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From: Mesa, AZ
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quote:

What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I would respectfully state that I think if there is willingness and trust I would do what my Dom wanted, knowing he/she was helping me grow or wanted me to do it for HIM/HER.

on the other hand, I HAVE been forced. You learn that you need to be careful in this lifestyle. Two months ago I was forced to submit to what *I* term rape or assault. He held my hair and made me comply. So YES you can be forced. I wouldn't recommend it if you want to ever see that sub again. At least the semi healthy in thought ones. THis man is no longer a Dom to me. And to be honest I knew it was not right and kept hesitating to cut things off.

If the boundaries are clearly defined, including what areas may be pushed..then you are not really forcing. you have the subs permission. Even though I really enjoy the bondage and the feeling of no control. I am like most healthy humans. Rape in real life is NOT part of my fantasy.

_____________________________

Never appeal to a man's "better nature."
He may not have one. Invoking his self-interest
gives you more leverage.
R. A. Heinlein

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:21:02 PM

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You can easily put people in a position where they can't say no.
The implied threat of dismissal or humiliation in public etc etc.
Everyone has something that they are more afraid of than what is being asked of them.
Find it and use it if you want to break someone.
But if you do then be prepared for the consequences.
They are your doing and your responsibility.
Of course you can just do it and move on.
But don't try and tell me it was consensual.

(in reply to sisambergris)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:26:37 PM

diamonddreamlove

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Sir gives me options or choices. I choose to do the things i know He wishes. That is not force. His view on this has been if He has done His job right He knows what He can ask for and knows when i am ready to do it as well. If He asks and i am not ready then He says that would be because he did not do His job right. So far no matter how difficult the request He has chosen right for me.

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:36:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

You can easily put people in a position where they can't say no.
The implied threat of dismissal or humiliation in public etc etc.
Everyone has something that they are more afraid of than what is being asked of them.
Find it and use it if you want to break someone.
But if you do then be prepared for the consequences.
They are your doing and your responsibility.
Of course you can just do it and move on.
But don't try and tell me it was consensual.

Good point.

Many subs are also scared to safeword. That's why the dominant needs to be good at reading a situation and knowing when a scene has gone too far. And that takes some skill.

(in reply to lateralist1)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:39:43 PM

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i agree with lateralist1. If i am only given choice a b or c and none of them is something i want to do then i am being forced to do something i do not want to.

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Bitching; whining in a louder voice.

If the truth hurts, change it!

(in reply to lateralist1)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:41:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

You can easily put people in a position where they can't say no.
The implied threat of dismissal or humiliation in public etc etc.
Everyone has something that they are more afraid of than what is being asked of them.
Find it and use it if you want to break someone.
But if you do then be prepared for the consequences.
They are your doing and your responsibility.
Of course you can just do it and move on.
But don't try and tell me it was consensual.

That is what I was trying to say earlier and doing a very poor job at it as well!
Well Done!

(in reply to lateralist1)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:42:16 PM

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In the end you almost always have the choice even with the gun to your head you have the choice, the alternative choice may not be ry much to your liking either but it is there.

Short of being physicly overpowered and physicly moved it seems there is always a choice.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/5/2006 12:49:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

In the end you almost always have the choice even with the gun to your head you have the choice, the alternative choice may not be ry much to your liking either but it is there.

Short of being physicly overpowered and physicly moved it seems there is always a choice.

Even then, you can choose to struggle or not. I refuse to say which way to go. Struggling can improve a situation, or make it ten times more painful. I think it depends on what you can live with.

amber

_____________________________

Never appeal to a man's "better nature."
He may not have one. Invoking his self-interest
gives you more leverage.
R. A. Heinlein

(in reply to Archer)

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