quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Thank you for the response Mstr2you ...
 
I agree with you on some level, but do feel you are selling the "gift" group short a bit. Now in fairness, you did indicate several times that people are difficult to categorize ... shades of grey, etc ... Obviously, you are entirely correct.
 
In my view, those that feel their submission is a gift can actually fall into several groups ("perhaps", caviat).
 
Some might use this as an almost guard ... I'm not giving this to just anyone, but only those worthy of such a gift. That might fit in with your romantic notion.
 
Still others might genuinely feel that they want to give something special ... something they see of epic value. You can buy someone a car, and that's a wonderful gift. You can buy someone a pair of designer jeans, and that's a wonderful gift ... but what is the ultimate gift? Some might feel the gift of self fits the bill. The idea that the gift can be taken back, to me is not on point for this type of person. It can be spun to make it on point, but in my view, we are just making words fit a situation. Give me enough time, and I can make submission a tuna salad sandwich, with the choice spin of words.
 
Some might look at the gift, and something completely internal ... not an external gift at all. Like an artist or musician with a gift, or who is gifted ... a person may feel that the ability to share on that level with another person, is a gift of it's own accord. Lets face facts ... all facets of this, from complete slavery, to casual play partner ... are just not for everyone. Not everyone could do it. Those that can, might be said to have a gift, or be gifted.
 
When I look at the rebuttal opinions from several people, I notice one thing right away ... they all focus on the transfer of something from one person to another ... and point out that something that can be taken back, is not a gift. It has to be forever, to be a gift, is the point of view. I don't share that view. If "Master A", is given the gift of submission by "Submissive B", the gift is intact from the moment it is given. If the relationship ends a year later, that year was still given. You can say the gift is open-ended, because it can end, but whatever ends up being given, is in fact given forever.
 
The best thought expressed on this thread, in my view, come from Miss Tress, when she said (paraphrased) that submission is whatever the people involved agree it is. We probably could have ended there.
 
Thank you for the thread. You certainly caused a stir, which is not always a bad thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


 When I look at the rebuttal opinions from several people, I notice one thing right away ... they all focus on the transfer of something from one person to another ... and point out that something that can be taken back, is not a gift. It has to be forever, to be a gift, is the point of view. I don't share that view. If "Master A", is given the gift of submission by "Submissive B", the gift is intact from the moment it is given. If the relationship ends a year later, that year was still given. You can say the gift is open-ended, because it can end, but whatever ends up being given, is in fact given forever.


This really is the crux of the matter I think.

First of all I have to admit the whole idea of offering a part of onself as a gift just seems so precious and romantic that it is hard to fit into MY idea of what bdsm is. I also fear that this "concept" is in fact a dangerous one for newcomers to the bdsm world  as it embraces what I consider a false fairy tale like ideal that in fact can never be acheived and the quest for it will only result in pain and loss.

Let me ask you even if such a thing was possible, and I am far from convinced that it is, that one could offer onself  as an unconditional gift to do as the opposing force should chose, how many dominants do you think would be deserving of such an offering even if such a thing was a reailty? How many human beings with all their failings deserve such an offering? And if you say that that is what the master slave relationship is than I would disagree unless you want to remove the concept of consent which I doubt.

In my view of the master slave dynamic there is no need for the slave to become less than she is and no need for her to give up a part of herself. I want my submissive to remain exactly who she is and than become MORE  because than I become more. I don't grow by receiving gifts, I grow by expanding my world and what is give is less than what we acheive.  It seems to me this "idea" that the submissive lays the gift of submission at ones feet is nothing more than an excercise in ego on both parts with the result being less than before.

I am of the belief that when you give something that is yours you lose something that was yours. I am not talking about a TV set here I am talking about an emotional sense of who you are, give it away and you are changed. Sure you could go on to the next and the next and do the same thing but each time you lose something and eventually you will be empty with nothing left to give.

There will always be those ready to take what is offered, the question is how much of yourself are you willing to lose.
 

(in reply to caitlyn)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mstr2you


Let me ask you even if such a thing was possible, and I am far from convinced that it is, that one could offer onself  as an unconditional gift to do as the opposing force should chose, how many dominants do you think would be deserving of such an offering even if such a thing was a reailty? How many human beings with all their failings deserve such an offering? And if you say that that is what the master slave relationship is than I would disagree unless you want to remove the concept of consent which I doubt.

In my view of the master slave dynamic there is no need for the slave to become less than she is and no need for her to give up a part of herself. I want my submissive to remain exactly who she is and than become MORE  because than I become more. I don't grow by receiving gifts, I grow by expanding my world and what is give is less than what we acheive.  It seems to me this "idea" that the submissive lays the gift of submission at ones feet is nothing more than an excercise in ego on both parts with the result being less than before.

I am of the belief that when you give something that is yours you lose something that was yours. I am not talking about a TV set here I am talking about an emotional sense of who you are, give it away and you are changed. Sure you could go on to the next and the next and do the same thing but each time you lose something and eventually you will be empty with nothing left to give.

There will always be those ready to take what is offered, the question is how much of yourself are you willing to lose.
 

quote:

I don't see giving as becoming or getting less of anything.

quote:

Now, with the holidays and all those great pressies like ties, books we already have, and other stupid shit we don't want.......let us discuss.....RE-gifting!

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Now, with the holidays and all those great pressies like ties, books we already have, and other stupid shit we don't want.......let us discuss.....RE-gifting!

edited to add just cuz.......I was going to go all non PC and bring up indian giving what with all the online crap and velcro collars but Need beat me to it and I didn't want to be redundant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Thank you for the response Mstr2you ...
 
I agree with you on some level, but do feel you are selling the "gift" group short a bit. Now in fairness, you did indicate several times that people are difficult to categorize ... shades of grey, etc ... Obviously, you are entirely correct.
 
In my view, those that feel their submission is a gift can actually fall into several groups ("perhaps", caviat).
 
Some might use this as an almost guard ... I'm not giving this to just anyone, but only those worthy of such a gift. That might fit in with your romantic notion.
 
Still others might genuinely feel that they want to give something special ... something they see of epic value. You can buy someone a car, and that's a wonderful gift. You can buy someone a pair of designer jeans, and that's a wonderful gift ... but what is the ultimate gift? Some might feel the gift of self fits the bill. The idea that the gift can be taken back, to me is not on point for this type of person. It can be spun to make it on point, but in my view, we are just making words fit a situation. Give me enough time, and I can make submission a tuna salad sandwich, with the choice spin of words.
 
Some might look at the gift, and something completely internal ... not an external gift at all. Like an artist or musician with a gift, or who is gifted ... a person may feel that the ability to share on that level with another person, is a gift of it's own accord. Lets face facts ... all facets of this, from complete slavery, to casual play partner ... are just not for everyone. Not everyone could do it. Those that can, might be said to have a gift, or be gifted.
 
When I look at the rebuttal opinions from several people, I notice one thing right away ... they all focus on the transfer of something from one person to another ... and point out that something that can be taken back, is not a gift. It has to be forever, to be a gift, is the point of view. I don't share that view. If "Master A", is given the gift of submission by "Submissive B", the gift is intact from the moment it is given. If the relationship ends a year later, that year was still given. You can say the gift is open-ended, because it can end, but whatever ends up being given, is in fact given forever.
 
The best thought expressed on this thread, in my view, come from Miss Tress, when she said (paraphrased) that submission is whatever the people involved agree it is. We probably could have ended there.
 
Thank you for the thread. You certainly caused a stir, which is not always a bad thing.

So, you're saying they're Indian givers. LOL. Good enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mstr2you

quote:

I don't see giving as becoming or getting less of anything.

When you give of yourself unconditionaly with no expectation of return than you risk losing something of yourself.

The gift of submission if such a thing exists would be different because ones submission brings with it the giving of power and control to another. I think we can all agree on that. It is not neccessary that there is any love at all between the dominant and the submissive. So I will repeat .... in a relationship based on power and control there is no need for one partner to give more of his or her self than another.

We ARE speaking here of giving unconnditionally without expectation of getting anything back out of it. :
"Here is my gift take it and do as you like" PERIOD. That being the case I would repeat that when you give something you lose something.

Either the above is true and this is real or the offering of the gift of submission is nothing more than a precious romantic symbolic expression of what we do.

If the latter is true than I would ask again,,, why all the anger and frustration at my belittling it?

quote:

Actually, I'm not at all angry with your view of things. If belittling someone else's views is important to you, then of course, you're going to do it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
So, you're saying they're Indian givers. LOL. Good enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


No, an Indian giver takes something back. In this scenario, whatever time is given cannot be taken back. A future might be denied, but what was given, was given. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
So, you're saying they're Indian givers. LOL. Good enough.

No, an Indian giver takes something back. In this scenario, whatever time is given cannot be taken back. A future might be denied, but what was given, was given. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mstr2you
There is always a core group of regular posters on a given message board who feel that it is their board and anyone with ideas that differ from their cores ideals are seen as a threat and are to be attacked and eliminated as if one could eliminate thoughts and ideas. It is an illusion of power but neverless they cling to that illusion and pat themselves on the back with each self serving snotty post that they make in response to anyone different from them sure in the conviction that they are on the side of God and only the devil could disagree with their point of view so the devil it must be.

They always get personal in their attacks and feel justified because in their minds it is they that have been attacked and they who must take a stand and defend. If personal attacks don't work or if the "evil one" dosn't run home crying than they go running to the moderator complaining that the poster is has violated board policy.  ( I want to take this opportunity to thank those of you who have been reporting my every word to the moderators, I enjoy getting their emails in the morning really its been fun no I mean it .)

It is too funny that core posters here are rewarded with paddles and lauded as being corrupted and twisted all the way up to deranged as if posting ones life away on a kink fetish board is not reward enough for anyone. ( I have got to exclude the lucky water bird cause I think shes hot and I can't figure out how she does the links thing)

They post when they sneeze and they post when the giggle and they post when their dog farts and they post to each other and they post to themselves and they post and they post and they post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirButchTX

You know, I did not read every response to this thread since there are so many, but Mstr2you had some valid points in his initial post. One thing I did seem to miss is the Top/Dominant's role in this gift of submission if indeed it is a gift.
Let's look at a few points here. Let's say I accept this "gift" of submission. Well, now I've got not only a responsibility for my own well being, but that of another human being as well. I now have to divide my time and energies and perhaps my financial resources yet again one more way. I must find ways to keep the dynamic of the relationship alive and growing which entails a great deal of thought, planning, and imagination. Now these are just a few of the many things that the Dominant in a BDSM relationship has to deal with. So, with all that said....perhaps a submissive must be selective of whom she "gifts" her submission to, but on my end, I must be even more selective of whom I receive this "gift" from. I have turned down more than a few submissives who wanted to saddle me with their gift....LOL. Oh, I forgot, Dominants MUST have a sense of humor and apply it regularly when dealing with this "gift"

SirButchTX

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimbo747

quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

I'd say he's definately rude, crude and lacking general social skills.
I'd guess it's a case of birds of a feather flock together.
.
suzanne

you dont know me well enough to call me rude crude and lack social skills. do you always judge and size someone up so quickly.  how does it feel to know everything?

his post was sarcastic and its unfortuanate you took it so personal.  lighten up.  irregardless HIS MADE A VALID POINT.  ligten up

quote:

  I'd say he's definately rude, crude and lacking general social skills.
Maybe being we all are different to some who are more aligned with his way of thinking it may not seem rude or insulting, but to a lot of the posters in this thread it is.