Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda.

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Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 12:35:39 PM

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The World Bank recently released a study about the world economy titled "Global Economics Prospects". You can review and download it here.

An interesting analysis from James Peron at TCS Daily website:

Extracts:

The report expects the world economy to grow from last year's $35 trillion to $72 trillion by 2030. And this "is driven more than ever before by strong performance in the developing countries." Only two decades ago the poor nations provided only 14 percent of wealthy nations' manufactured imports. Today they provide 40 percent and by 2030 they are projected to provide over 65 percent.

As it was over the last 25 years it is the poor who will benefit the most. "The number of people living on less than $1 a day [in constant dollars] could be cut in half, from 1.1 billion now to 550 million in 2030." And the number living on less than $2 per day will decline by an estimated 800 million.

...

The net result is that the income of developing countries "will continue to converge with those of wealthy countries. This would imply that countries as diverse as China, Mexico and Turkey would have average living standards roughly comparable to Spain today."

As good as this is the Bank says things could be even better. They believe their projections "are fairly impervious to all but the most severe and sustained shocks" but they also admit that "the possibility exists that the world will be even better than envisioned... thanks possibly to unanticipated technological improvements, more innovation in business processes that allow for an acceleration of globalization and widespread adoptions of good policies within countries."

Their "optimistic" scenario would lead to incomes 45 percent higher than today and a decline of absolute poverty from 20 percent of the world's population to 4 percent.

***

Sure sounds to me like the greedy capitalistic world economy, driven by the heartless bastard American corporations intent on globalization are really stinking up the place, doesn't it?

Where are all the Marxist hiding when news like this comes out?

FirmKY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 12:45:55 PM

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You have forgot about global warming. The fly in the ointment.

Also - We already over harvest our planet to the tune of needing two planets to sustain our present consumption. If China's and India's population had the same standard of living as the people in the first world, we will need five planet earths to meet the needs of human consumption. I'd like to see capitalism solve that little problem.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/14/2006 12:48:27 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 1:12:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You have forgot about global warming. The fly in the ointment.

Also - We already over harvest our planet to the tune of needing two planets to sustain our present consumption. If China's and India's population had the same standard of living as the people in the first world, we will need five planet earths to meet the needs of human consumption. I'd like to see capitalism solve that little problem.

1. Flies in the ointment:

hmmm ... think outside the box again, mc. Global Warming = rising oceans = more beachfront property. That's a good thing, ain't it?

2. Sustainability:

Got any hard facts on this, or are you simply relying on Robert Malthus's Principles of Populations?

You know ... the one that hasn't been born out by the test of time, and the one that seems to not take into account the results of a happy, prosperous society on population growth? Nor the effects of technology?

I don't really buy into Chicken Little arguments.

FirmKY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 1:43:52 PM

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"Global Warming = rising oceans = more beachfront property. That's a good thing, ain't it?"

........i can see you need to brush up on your topology.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 1:46:28 PM

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FirmHand loves Wal Mart. Its the place to be!

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 1:50:20 PM

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Here. This is for you FirmHand. Its from Ike.

Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we-you and I, and our government-must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 3:01:58 PM

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quote:

Sure sounds to me like the greedy capitalistic world economy, driven by the heartless bastard American corporations intent on globalization are really stinking up the place, doesn't it?

Yes, well... too bad the luster tarnishes when you consider that the top 1% now owns 40% of the wealth, and the top 5% owns 95%.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 3:07:54 PM

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mommyyyy!!!!

Little johnny got a bigger piece of pie! *pouts*

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 3:09:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

Here. This is for you FirmHand. Its from Ike.

Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we-you and I, and our government-must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.

Sounds nice and all ... dunno .... conservative, I guess.

What exactly does this mean, as far as my OP's point?

FirmKY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 3:11:05 PM

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While I can understand (but not agree necessarily) with what you wrote FirmHandKY, I think the title of this thread is erroneous...capitalism has not failed, but it is thriving and ever more pervasive (whether we like it or not). The fact is I think people misuse the free capitalist system, yet with its imperfections I prefer it over a planned economy (marxist system)....I also disagree with the notion that poor countries by adopting this system become poorer...that happens because the corrupt elites of those countries do not implement the system fairly or with checks and balances, benefitting a few minority. Some shinning examples of this is Chile today, with about 18% of their population in poverty, of which within that 18%, about 4% are very poor....while this may seem like an abismal figure, this needs to be compared to say Chile in 1989 that had 45% of the people in poverty and about 20% of those were very poor....huge, massive gains in less than 20 years. The figures become even more pathetic if we look at Chile in the 60's and early 70's trapped in a cycle of poverty. This was done gradually and took over 30 yrs...starting from 1974 with the free economic policies implemented (starting with decree Law 600 an investment law which started everything), until today, untouched by governments except to increase social spending....and without the elites corrupting themselves or the system.That is the way.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 3:14:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

2. Sustainability:

Got any hard facts on this, or are you simply relying on Robert Malthus's Principles of Populations?

You know ... the one that hasn't been born out by the test of time, and the one that seems to not take into account the results of a happy, prosperous society on population growth? Nor the effects of technology?

Actually there are so many reports about over consumption by humans that it is difficult to choose one but here are two news report summaries, you can follow them up if you want.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6077798.stm

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,750783,00.html

The problem is a collapse in the eco-system, not whether capitalism could give everyone a reasonable life if their were enough resources which there aren't. The weakness of capitalism is that it just doesn't work long term, its not sustainable. That is not to say alternatives to capitalism mean central control and a chaining of human resourcefulness. It's about people refocusing their priorities away from consumption for consumption's sake.

But what is good about capitalism? It appropriates people's time (their most precious resource) for the wealth of others.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 5:54:20 PM

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I edited this because I don't want to get involved with politics again.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 12/14/2006 5:58:54 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 6:56:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually there are so many reports about over consumption by humans that it is difficult to choose one but here are two news report summaries, you can follow them up if you want.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6077798.stm

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,750783,00.html

The problem is a collapse in the eco-system, not whether capitalism could give everyone a reasonable life if their were enough resources which there aren't. The weakness of capitalism is that it just doesn't work long term, its not sustainable. That is not to say alternatives to capitalism mean central control and a chaining of human resourcefulness. It's about people refocusing their priorities away from consumption for consumption's sake.

But what is good about capitalism? It appropriates people's time (their most precious resource) for the wealth of others.

Questions:

1. If not capitalism, and if not "centralized economies", then what type of economic system do you envision would accomplish what you wish?

2. What, exactly is it that you "wish"? What is your definition of success for the human race on the planet Earth?

3. Why are you so quick to accept the "findings" of a "study" that is put out by an admittedly partisan organization? I reviewed both articles, and they are about the very same "report", and there is no link or path to find the study for a detailed analysis.

I just have to say, that I've been reading about "the end of the environment" my entire life. Global warming now, global cooling in the 70s ... and it still all seems like scare tactics to me, done for either political, or philosophical reasons, and not substantially for the advancement of mankind's knowledge.

It' makes me distrustful of all such fear-mongering reports of the imminent demise of the planet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

But what is good about capitalism? It appropriates people's time (their most precious resource) for the wealth of others.

Now this is a very interesting (and illuminating) quote that you have made, and definitely worthy of further discussion, but I'll wait for you to clarify which economic system you are recommending to replace it before I comment.

FirmKY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 7:28:29 PM

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India & China are hardly American style capitalist. It's straight forward redistribution of wealth from the West to the East.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 7:52:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

India & China are hardly American style capitalist. It's straight forward redistribution of wealth from the West to the East.

huh?

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 8:06:32 PM

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FirmhandKY, does your entire political philosophy revolve around a DVD player in the back of your car?

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 8:17:25 PM

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It's this kind of flippant dismissal of serious environmental problems that is going to make future generations look back at us and wonder what the fuck we thought we were doing when we had the fate of the planet in our hands.

It's on the same not-as-clever-as-it's-supposed-to-be level as those bumper stickers that say things like "PRAYER--the original wireless communication."

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Global Warming = rising oceans = more beachfront property. That's a good thing, ain't it?

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 8:40:22 PM

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"And remember children, Jesus wants you to be rich, forget the eye of a needle thing, that was a mis-print."

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 9:26:47 PM

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Beyond a finite point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive.

– from the novel "Dune" by Frank Herbert.

Just thought I’d start things off by tossing that in.

I’ve been away for a bit, Christmas (capitalism’s yearly celebration of itself) keeps me busy at work, but now that I’m back, this looks like a fun topic to jump into.

I believe that it was Winston Churchill who said that democracy was the worst form of government – except for all the others. Likewise, I believe that capitalism is the worst economic system – except for all the others.

Capitalism can work and it can work quite well but only if those engaging in it are people of good will. That is, people willing to exchange value for value (pay a decent wage, not overcharge for a product or service, etc). Hence, the naturally greedy tendency of the human species is capitalism’s Achilles heal. So how do we make capitalism work? First and foremost each one of us must resolve to be one of the people of good will, people who don’t cheat others, won’t tolerate being cheated, and won’t do business with those who cheat others. Easier said and done, I realize. As for the rest? Well, that’s what laws are for. The only question then is, what laws we want. That’s an endless debate and I’ll not get into it here.

Concerning global warming. Two things: first, the climate is going to change. That’s because it has always been changing, long before humans arrived on the scene. Where I sit as I write this was once under two miles of ice, and will be again some day. It is a fantasy to believe that we can arrest climate change and hold the climate in its current state. We can only deal with the climate change as it occurs. We have done this before – read up on what is called the Little Ice Age, and its enormous impact on history. Back then we stumbled blindly along. Now, at least, we have the benefit of some foresight. I say some foresight because that leads me to my second point. Be wary of predications, especially one that are either very rosy or "doom and gloom." Humans are endlessly imaginative and innovative. It is impossible to predict what innovations there will be in technology, philosophy, economy, etc. This limits our ability to project future events based upon current trends. For an example, consider this: in 1933 President Roosevelt appointed a committee to "chart our course" through 1952. This committee’s reports did not once mention atomic energy, antibiotics, jet propulsion, or transistors, all of which were to emerge – and change the world – by 1952.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/14/2006 9:46:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

mommyyyy!!!!

Little johnny got a bigger piece of pie! *pouts*

If you're making an analogy, this would reflect a closer relationship:

"Mom, John and his cronies took almost the whole pie and only left a few crumbs for the rest of the party. And they're coming back for more!"

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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