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RE: forced masculinity - 3/17/2006 9:43:15 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Lola's point was that physiology, although a sign of gender, is not determinitive of it. Hence lola's POV is that "gender is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT."


I am not sure if there is anyone here who disagrees with that point of view. It seems rather basic: sex and gender are two different things. To put it simply, sex is between your legs and gender is between your ears. If anyone disagrees with that, I hope they will speak up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
When people read the signs or "traits" as you call them of gender as determinitive, they are fucking people who don't fit the mold.

People read the signs of gender and make inferences based upon their past experience. And hopefully that experience will include some gender diversity and a willingness to allow each person to identify their gender.

Perhaps it might be useful to note that masculine and male are not the same thing. Male can refer to sex or to gender. Masculine refers to cultural norms.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I'm personally not offended by anyone's viewpoint here, because I don't expect others to be sensitive to me or what I might want.

That is good, because this thread is about what some women want from their men, its not about what some men want from their women. Some people enjoy needle play, but I wouldn't expect to post my negative feelings about needle play in a thread where needle play enthusiasts are discussing what they have done and how much they enjoy it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
But men with very strong TV urges or men who go a more serious transgender route (TS) have enough baggage as it is without GGs piling on about what "makes a real man."

I don't think the thread is about trying to force anyone to do anything they don't want. If someone identifies as transgender, I think that is accepted. Are you saying that all women have to desire transgendered persons as sexual partners?

quote:

So you see, its a subtle thing, not an overt thing here ---- which is smart on your part --- because "I love masculine men" leaves you the back door opening of plausible denyability that you look down on anything else. Its kind of like me going on and on about how I love and adore THIN women. If this is all I say, then its quite easy for me to deny hating fat women. Its a subtle thing.


No, I don't think so. To say you are attracted to thin women is just that - its your personal perference. And if your preference was not to date curvy women, well... that would be your loss. But its also your choice and valid as such.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 3/17/2006 10:11:47 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 4:21:18 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		I'm still waiting for a Fem Domina or Male Dominant to contribute to this board along the original OP's train of thought.

Let's redirect the thread towards the BDSM topic of Forced Masculinization.

If we wanted to enter into discourse debating the metaphysical and sociological import of the theoretical differences between transgendered and transexual deviants, we'd all belong to Psychiatry News, instead of Collar Me. Don't get Me wrong, I'm not bashing TV's or TS's or TG's, I simply would like to concentrate on BDSM.

Forced Masculinization: to wit: Forcing a fem sub to discover her 'masculine' side.

Since I've never engaged the service of a fem sub, the topic interests Me.

Any constructive, enlightening comments, anyone?

Texas Maam

(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 302
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 4:33:11 PM   
Katmistress


Posts: 33
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline 		I don't believe that stating a preference automatically says that you have equally strong feelings against the opposite. Any negative on that line is just in the ear of the beholder. You are reading something into what someone says because that is what you want to believe.
In other words saying you love cake doesn't mean that you hate pie.
There are times when even the most masculine man looks rather nice in a little apron.
The bottom line for me is the man MUST take care of himself. He must keep himself clean and healthy. I don't care how masculine of feminine a man is if he smells badly or just lets himself go he isn't going to be much good for anything.
That is just IMO.
Kat

(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 4:42:43 PM   
Katmistress


Posts: 33
Joined: 4/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Forced Masculinization: to wit: Forcing a fem sub to discover her 'masculine' side.

Since I've never engaged the service of a fem sub, the topic interests Me.

Any constructive, enlightening comments, anyone?


This does sound interesting to be honest with you. It is something that I haven't given much thought to but will wait for words from others.
I am sure there will be comments form people here who have had both good and not so good experience with this issue.
Kat

(in reply to Katmistress)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:01:19 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		In actuality, this is a very old thread that has been refreshed. However, the direction it took caused Angelika to abandon this and begin a new one in the hope that dicussion could stay more on topic.
That thread Techniques for teasing out masculinityis the follow up to this one.
Angelika was trying to make the point that many submissive boys are very into the feminization thing, and that many of us Ladies truly enjoy a very masculine man at our knees. So what tecniques might there be to accomplish having these submissive boys get back in touch with their masculine side, and what is it that thrills us so about the masculinity that could and should be serving us?
Here were the examples Angelika gave from this thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GddssBella
"Teasing out" a male's inner masculinity is something I actually snitched from Angelika. I just liked the term so well. (#163) It must be done with grace & subtlety. Overt actions sometimes backfire & have disastrous consequences. I believe that masuclinity embraces all that is best in a man. Chivalry, courtesy, charisma, dignity, charm, wit, etc. I further believe that all males have these traits possible within themselves. It is a matter of re-introducing a male to their inner gentleman.


a posting from a male submissive:

quote:

ORIGINAL: PassionateNights
I work hard and am successful by most measures. I move through the world with a fair amount of confidence and presence. And yet.....I absolutely need at the core of my being to kneel before a Dominant woman and give her all that I am. To find ways to please her and anticipate her needs....My masculinity is completely seperate from my submission and just who I am. I find that there are Dommes who enjoy taking a powerful man and owning him (thank the universe for that!).


or this one:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GentleLady
Nothing comes close to watching a strong masculine male baking a chocolate cake, setting the table, or decorating cookies because he wants to. The contrasts are just too delicious.


and finally:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
My personal favorite is watching one in a towel or pair of boxers carrying my plate to me


Although I enjoy dress up play as much as the next Domina, I do thoroughly enjoy the *masculinity* that is kneeling before Me. We seem to have a tendency to move in the direction of the feminine, (or the neutral, sexless sort of scurrying around to take care of Mistress) because it is such a popular part of the lifestyle, and, I also think, because many males feel it is not masculine to submit...therefore they cannot be overtly masculine and also serve a FemDom. They often manage to shut that masulinity down when alone with Mistress.
Why is that? The boys all seem to want the french maid's costume, whereas I would much prefer a nice looking and well fitted pair of jeans on him. Shirt optional (My option).
Make sense?

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 3/18/2006 5:06:27 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to TexasMaam)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:06:18 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Aw *blush* I made your list ... LOL

I'm sorry that I helped to perpetuate the off topic direction.

On topic, our new boy is a neat freak. He is often found t-shirtless while vacuuming or cleaning the bathroom or kitchen. He does laundry and cooks too (although his cooking still leaves a bit to be desired at least he tries, right?) ... and there is no doubt in my mind, his mind, or the mind of anyone else who sees him that he is masculine.

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:11:13 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

Aw *blush* I made your list ... LOL

I'm sorry that I helped to perpetuate the off topic direction.

On topic, our new boy is a neat freak. He is often found t-shirtless while vacuuming or cleaning the bathroom or kitchen. He does laundry and cooks too (although his cooking still leaves a bit to be desired at least he tries, right?) ... and there is no doubt in my mind, his mind, or the mind of anyone else who sees him that he is masculine.


*laffs* Actually, you were on topic. Lady A used these examples to get the new thread going, and took those examples from this thread as being a few of the on topic responses. Most of the rest was not! LOL
Your new boy sounds yummy and divinely masculine!


_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to SweetDommes)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:15:40 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Katmistress
quote:

Forced Masculinization: to wit: Forcing a fem sub to discover her 'masculine' side. Any constructive, enlightening comments, anyone?

This does sound interesting to be honest with you.


Not allowing her anything 'feminine' - no make up, hair short, no skirts, no body hugging clothing, no 'fem' lingerie (sports bras, nana pants, etc), nails cut short, no high heels, no perfum, etc .. stripping the feminine ego and all that.

Find it quite fascinating, that and the other one I like doing is taking a butch fem sub and making her wear skirts and have her hair fru fru'ed and nails done.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to Katmistress)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:17:27 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

Although I enjoy dress up play as much as the next Domina, I do thoroughly enjoy the *masculinity* that is kneeling before Me. We seem to have a tendency to move in the direction of the feminine, (or the neutral, sexless sort of scurrying around to take care of Mistress) because it is such a popular part of the lifestyle, and, I also think, because many males feel it is not masculine to submit...therefore they cannot be overtly masculine and also serve a FemDom. They often manage to shut that masulinity down when alone with Mistress.
Why is that? The boys all seem to want the french maid's costume, whereas I would much prefer a nice looking and well fitted pair of jeans on him. Shirt optional (My option).
Make sense?


Thanks for clarifying the topic.

I guess I'm fortunate in that bobbi is so very masculine in everything he does. He occasionally wears 'pretties' because it makes Me laugh, but feminization just isn't our thing. His submission, however, is.

The thread, however, did lead Me to contemplate the forced masculinization of a fem sub and I'd love to read more on that topic.

Texas Maam

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:19:24 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn
Not allowing her anything 'feminine' - no make up, hair short, no skirts, no body hugging clothing, no 'fem' lingerie (sports bras, nana pants, etc), nails cut short, no high heels, no perfum, etc .. stripping the feminine ego and all that.
Find it quite fascinating, that and the other one I like doing is taking a butch fem sub and making her wear skirts and have her hair fru fru'ed and nails done.


THAT's what I'd love to read more of. Do tell? The butch in the salon imagery is priceless, thanks for sharing!

Texas Maam

(in reply to Jasmyn)
Profile   Post #: 310
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:29:26 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold


*laffs* Actually, you were on topic. Lady A used these examples to get the new thread going, and took those examples from this thread as being a few of the on topic responses. Most of the rest was not! LOL
Your new boy sounds yummy and divinely masculine!



Eh, at times I was LOL

And yes, he is *swoons* and he just finished cleaning the bathrooms for me

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 5:37:43 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Yw ;) I like that I can take a man and strip him of all things masculine and that I can do that to a female by taking away all things feminine ... no longer can the man fiddle with his cuff links and look self assured in his suit when he's wearing a pretty pink dress and ribbons in his hair... no longer can the woman toss her golden locks or look all pretty and coy wearing a smock and y-fronts.

They are still a man or a woman standing before me, but there is power in 'gender constructs' ... masculine power & feminine power ... stripping the person of 'gender' takes away the power pertained to their gender (if that makes sense) .


_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to TexasMaam)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: forced masculinity - 3/18/2006 9:22:33 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned



quote:

So you see, its a subtle thing, not an overt thing here ---- which is smart on your part --- because "I love masculine men" leaves you the back door opening of plausible denyability that you look down on anything else. Its kind of like me going on and on about how I love and adore THIN women. If this is all I say, then its quite easy for me to deny hating fat women. Its a subtle thing.


No, I don't think so. To say you are attracted to thin women is just that - its your personal perference. And if your preference was not to date curvy women, well... that would be your loss. But its also your choice and valid as such.


In a strict sense you are right. If everyone were like me, you would be absolutely right. But you cannot deny that when folks say what the like, they also imply what they don't.... so some sensitivity is warranted.

Sissies here took offense, rightly or wrongly, justified or unjustified... so there is a basis to what I said and you are wrong to ignore this fact. The truth is most women dislike or are repulsed by sissies --- so its no wonder they're sensitive. They don't have much refuge. Women going on and on about masculine men just piles onto their plight. Whatayougonnado?? I agree, you ladies should be able to talk about masculine men, but you should also be able to deal with the criticism you may draw for that stance.

On another thread someone said real ladies wear high heels to be feminine. Needless to say one defining what was feminine drew a good amount of criticism.

(in reply to onceburned)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: forced masculinity - 3/20/2006 9:23:36 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		When there are dozens of threads about forced fem, extreme feminization of males, and sissification, and only two (that I have seen in the last year of being active on these boards) about enhancing/forcing/drawing out the masculine aspects of males ... I think I can speak for more than just myself when I say - we stay out of the multitudes of threads about the opposite of our kink, why can't we have one or two thread for our kink without being bashed for it?

I don't go into the multitudes of forced fem threads or sissification threads ... unless it's something like "why don't people want us" - in which case, I give my point of view, and leave - I'm not degrading; I'm not insulting; I don't attack them for their preferences.  Forgive me if I ask the same in return when there is ONE or TWO threads that are about male submissives being masculine instead of feminine - by the definitions given by DustyGold for what is masculine. 

As for your comment about the feminine thread, I admit that I was one who objected to the idea of feminine = wearing heels, but the way it was stated was such that if a person didn't ever wear heels, then they were not faminine at all.  I happen to feel very feminine most of the time, but I rarely wear heels because they aren't comfortable.  I don't wear men's clothing; I don't try to be masculine, but I just don't like how my feet feel at the end of an hour or two being on my feet while wearing heels.  Holly is also quite feminine, but she CAN'T wear heels ... so if someone's criteria of 'feminine' is that heels must be worn, then yeah, I have a problem with it.  That's like saying that only guys who wear coyboy hats are truly masculine, and how silly would that be?

< Message edited by SweetDommes -- 3/20/2006 9:24:16 AM >

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: forced masculinity - 3/20/2006 1:03:19 PM   
SimplyV


Posts: 351
Joined: 11/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

When there are dozens of threads about forced fem, extreme feminization of males, and sissification, and only two (that I have seen in the last year of being active on these boards) about enhancing/forcing/drawing out the masculine aspects of males ... I think I can speak for more than just myself when I say - we stay out of the multitudes of threads about the opposite of our kink, why can't we have one or two thread for our kink without being bashed for it?

I don't go into the multitudes of forced fem threads or sissification threads ... unless it's something like "why don't people want us" - in which case, I give my point of view, and leave - I'm not degrading; I'm not insulting; I don't attack them for their preferences. Forgive me if I ask the same in return when there is ONE or TWO threads that are about male submissives being masculine instead of feminine - by the definitions given by DustyGold for what is masculine.


Hmm.. maybe in the aspect of fairness.. we should go to the other threads and start bashing. I mean.. if thats what is supposed to be acceptable behavior.

Maybe I should start telling people they're sick and wrong because they're into something that I'm not.

Yep.. If intolerance of others is the way things are supposed to be done, then by all means.. maybe I should rethink my approach to life.



Intolerance works both ways. If you want to be accepted for your kink, then you should accept others for theirs. No matter what their kink is.. no matter what yours is. Even if that rules you out as a possible mate.

V

(in reply to SweetDommes)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: forced masculinity - 3/20/2006 5:57:19 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

When there are dozens of threads about forced fem, extreme feminization of males, and sissification, and only two (that I have seen in the last year of being active on these boards) about enhancing/forcing/drawing out the masculine aspects of males ... I think I can speak for more than just myself when I say - we stay out of the multitudes of threads about the opposite of our kink, why can't we have one or two thread for our kink without being bashed for it?
<snipped>

As for your comment about the feminine thread,


I would like to add here, if I am recalling the correct thread, it was not originally about Ladies being feminine at all.  That was something that was brought up by a male submissive, along the way, taking things off topic, to boot, and the discussion then deteriorated into what makes a Lady feminine.  According to the male fantasy, of course.
Honestly, we are not trying to give any boys a hard time. We are not saying anything is good, better, or bad, worse, or just plain indifferent.  We all have out own preferences.  
This is our forum, and if we can't discuss something like this openly and honestly, sharing our opinions and ideas, without insulting and/or hurting anyone's feelings, I can only shrug.  I didn't see anyone being picked on.
onceburned put it quite nicely when he said in partial reply to another post:


quote:


ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I'm personally not offended by anyone's viewpoint here, because I don't expect others to be sensitive to me or what I might want.



quote:

Original:  onceburned  
That is good, because this thread is about what some women want from their men, its not about what some men want from their women. Some people enjoy needle play, but I wouldn't expect to post my negative feelings about needle play in a thread where needle play enthusiasts are discussing what they have done and how much they enjoy it.


< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 3/20/2006 6:01:00 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to SweetDommes)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: forced masculinity - 3/21/2006 6:23:25 AM   
Nahemah


Posts: 34
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		TallDarkandWitty -

A Man after My own heart :) Kudos to Your father, and much thanks to You for being a Gentleman.



(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: forced masculinity - 3/21/2006 6:34:07 AM   
Nahemah


Posts: 34
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		I find that the only kind of feminization I enjoy is when it is able to be used as a tool of extreme humiliation. Taking a strong, tall, big, masculine man and calling him "Candy" and making him wear a dress for Me is appealing for a scene, only.

~*~HOWEVER~*~

That is a tool, not My preference.

I love men. I love gentlemen. I love men that love being men.

Afterall, I am a Woman.


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: forced masculinity - 3/22/2006 12:59:35 AM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		I have had one Domme dress me up like a woman twice and it did nothing for me. Maybe because (and this is just the way I think) I don’t see anything humiliating about being a woman?

The only thing that gave me the creeps (and I love creepy disturbing things) was the make up reminded me of clowns and looked sinister on me. Dressing that way seems like a good way for me to disturb others I thought as I looked in the mirror.
It didn’t make me feel humiliated or submissive just reminded me of the silence of the lamb’s guy.  

When I was much (long long time ago) younger I wore black lipstick and back eye shadow to look creepy all the time. Dressing up for horror punk and punk shows I went to a lot.  

I don’t feminize well I am not passable…to say the least  I come out looking down right creepy its maybe fun for Halloween.

Both times we tried this mind set changed when I saw in the mirror how weird I looked.
Trouble is I liked the creepy Marylyn Manson aspect but not in anyway sexual or humiliating.
Maybe if I felt there was something “wrong” with cross dressing I would feel humiliated?     

Its not that I find that other men that cross dress look strange or not passable to me.
Just me.
Maybe if a made an attractive woman in drag I would think about it different  ...but I don’t.

I personally find my self thinking a whole different way about my self with make up.
This may have more to do with my own teen rebellion period than anything else.

I think there are things (some of them hard limits) that some submissive and some Dom/mmes don’t “get”.

If a Domme was into a furry fetish or plushie and had me dress as a cartoon mascot I would be just as distracted by the weirdness more than any humiliation or sub feelings.
Same thing with adult babies I just don’t “connect” with it.  

my glam rock and punk heroes used gender bending as a sinister act of stage persona rebellion rather than anything sensual. So maybe I see it as an act of passive aggressive empowerment by alienating others rather than submission?

(in reply to Nahemah)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: forced masculinity - 3/22/2006 1:02:27 AM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		So maybe I see it as an act of passive aggressive empowerment by alienating others rather than submission.

here i mean ME not by true sissys and cross dressers that enjoy it. this is how i belive it makes me feel not otheres

(in reply to mantis65)
Profile   Post #: 320
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