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About puntuation - 12/31/2006 1:35:14 AM   
MasDom


Posts: 375
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline 		OK so i,m going back to the basics on punctuation, due to the fact all that heavy drinking has erased a few things I needed.
 
But tell me if this little learning session seems odd to you...
 
 
 
NOTE: The semi-colon remains between the two clauses, even when the conjunctive adverb is moved. e.g.,

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style; opinions about his work, however, vary widely.

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style; opinions about his work vary widely, however.


So why is it wrong if I write it like this?

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style.
However opinions about his work widely differ.

(I feel stupid) -smiles-
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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 2:22:16 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Which example is wrong ? I dont like the comma near to however.

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 3:22:48 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Except for the fact that you need a comma after "however" in the second sentence (to indicate that the adverb "however" modifies the entire phrase "opinions about his work widely differ"), what you wrote is fine.  Some people claim that you can't begin a sentence with "however," but that rule makes no sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasDom

So why is it wrong if I write it like this?

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style.
However opinions about his work widely differ.

(in reply to MasDom)
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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 4:54:11 AM   
mgdartist


Posts: 328
Joined: 5/13/2006
From: irving tx
Status: offline 		your fist step in learning better...
"puntuation"(sp)
seems to me might be best served learning to spell it: "punctuation"
just sayin'



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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 6:55:38 AM   
farmbound1


Posts: 46
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		The correct wording would be as follows:

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style; however, opinions about his work vary widely.

The way you wrote it (see below), you have a sentence and a sentence fragment unless you take the word "however" out of your second statement.  The reasoning is that the word "however" does not modify any of the words in the second statement and does not connect anything together, so it is completely superfluous.  Also, I believe it is more correct to say "differ widely" than "widely differ".
imho,
will

So why is it wrong if I write it like this?

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style.
However opinions about his work widely differ.

(in reply to mgdartist)
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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 7:00:50 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I guess what I don't understand is why you hit the enter key after every period.  Or, perhaps, it's when you've finished (or mostly finished) a thought.  It makes your posts hard to read.  Well, not hard to read exactly, but I tend to skim them since they seem so damned long. 

I just read another post of yours...it seems you just hit the enter key when the mood strikes you.  I'm just wondering why.

Jeez, this is my third edit...this (the above) is a question for the OP.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 12/31/2006 7:07:00 AM >

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 7:05:58 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Did you mean "first"?

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 7:48:54 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farmbound1

The correct wording would be as follows:

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style; however, opinions about his work vary widely.

The way you wrote it (see below), you have a sentence and a sentence fragment unless you take the word "however" out of your second statement.  The reasoning is that the word "however" does not modify any of the words in the second statement and does not connect anything together, so it is completely superfluous.  Also, I believe it is more correct to say "differ widely" than "widely differ".
imho,
will

If  had to try to remember such detail when writing a post I would most likely forget what it was I was trying to post about.
Some might think that a good thing however.
However I think they would be wrong..
However that may be !

(in reply to farmbound1)
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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 8:23:04 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Having taught English for a few years, I'll see what I can do.

About puntuation

Regarding Punctuation

OK so i,m going back to the basics on punctuation, due to the fact all that heavy drinking has erased a few things I needed.

OK, so I'm going back to the basics on punctuation due to the fact that all of my heavy drinking has erased a few brain cells.

But tell me if this little learning session seems odd to you...

But, please tell me if this little learning session seems odd to you.

NOTE: The semi-colon remains between the two clauses, even when the conjunctive adverb is moved. e.g.,

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style; opinions about his work, however, vary widely.

The conjunctive adverb is however...

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style; opinions about his work vary widely, however.

The conjunctive adverb moves to a less desirable location, though the semicolon is still acceptable. 

So why is it wrong if I write it like this?

So, why is it wrong if I write the sentance like this?

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style.
However opinions about his work widely differ.

The bigger mistake is using two simple sentences relating to the same subject.  If you read the two sentences out loud, it sounds like a fourth grade book report.  A common wouldn't be considered strong enough (though it is acceptable) to link two independent full clauses i.e. a clause with both a subject, verb, and direct object.  The semicolon simply functions as a 'super comma.'

The lesser mistake is that "However" would require a comma after it, in any case.

Hope this helps.

Stephan


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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 9:31:30 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Hugs back to ya sweetie.

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 9:48:28 AM   
OedipusRexIt


Posts: 634
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		I just love it when someone lectures on the right way to do anything.

I get an even bigger kick out of grammer police who do so under a topic heading that is mis-spelled.

Don't we feel silly now....

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 10:01:20 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I just love it when someone lectures on the right way to do anything.

Seems that's what the OP was asking for, no? 

I get an even bigger kick out of grammer police who do so under a topic heading that is mis-spelled.
 
i kinda get a kick out of the grammer police.  Is this a new branch of security?  lol

Don't we feel silly now....

Feel silly....on here???  That would take an act of God 
 
DG


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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 11:19:54 AM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I just love it when someone lectures...


Yeah, I think I have a little bit of a "lecture fetish" myself.
Hot, isnt it?

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 11:53:45 AM   
MmakeMme


Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline 		As long as it's decipherable, wtf cares? I have an MA in English, a BA in journalism, and what I learned from all those years (and all that money) was how to avoid looking like a pompous ass when I write in informally. In formal writing (such as in professional / paid pieces) it is only proper that one revert to all the vague and concrete pomposity one can muster.

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 12:40:47 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That's wrong.  Follow your logic through: if "however" somehow turns the second sentence into a fragment, then it can't be in an independent clause after a semicolon either.  So that can't be the reason.

The only reason why some people would object to what he wrote has to do with the vestigial rule that sentences cannot begin with the word "however."  But as I said, I don't think that rule makes any sense and plenty of brilliant and knowledgeable writers violate it all the time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farmbound1

The correct wording would be as follows:

Ernest Hemingway was a master of style; however, opinions about his work vary widely.

The way you wrote it (see below), you have a sentence and a sentence fragment unless you take the word "however" out of your second statement.  The reasoning is that the word "however" does not modify any of the words in the second statement and does not connect anything together, so it is completely superfluous.

(in reply to farmbound1)
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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 12:58:44 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		LaM:  I believe the "rule" against beginning a sentence with "however" generally stems from the venerable Wm. Strunk, and is perpetuated by E.B. White in his famous revision of "Elements of Style".  In fact, Strunk and White do not apply a  a blanket condemnation of the practice, but rather make a distinction in usage:

quote:

However. In the meaning nevertheless, not to come first in its sentence or clause.

[incorrect]:   The roads were almost impassable. However, we at last succeeded in reaching camp.
[correct]:      The roads were almost impassable. At last, however, we succeeded in reaching camp. 

When however comes first, it means in whatever way or to whatever extent.

However you advise him, he will probably do as he thinks best.

However discouraging the prospect, he never lost heart.
 

Note that no comma follows the preferred usage.  You are correct; many fine writers break this rule.  I learned (from Jacques Barzun, to drop an esoteric name that few, if any, will recognize) that "however", inlaid into a sentence, is preferred.  It is more elegant and better directs the reader to the writer's point, which is "item a may be true, however I'll now tell you about item b".

However you use the phrase, please make sure never to say "however, but" which all agree is redundant.  I like new writing, however I am partial to the golden oldies of Fowler, Strunk and White.

E.

< Message edited by Emperor1956 -- 12/31/2006 1:04:14 PM >

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RE: About puntuation - 12/31/2006 7:55:20 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		No, that's not right either.  If you're using "however" to mean "nevertheless," you HAVE to have the comma, because it modifies the entire following phrase.  In the examples that you have, there's no comma after "however" because it's being used in the sense of "in whatever manner."

Anyway, the reason why it's silly to object to starting a sentence with "however" (in the sense of "nevertheless") is that there wouldn't be any controversy if you just set off "however" somewhere within the concessive clause.  (A "concessive" is something like "but," "still," "nevertheless," etc.)

For example:

This conversation is technical.  However, some people may find it interesting.

That's supposed to be incorrect according to the silly rule I'm talking about.

But what about:

This conversation is technical.  Some people may find it interesting, however.

No one would object to that.

So what earthly difference does it make whether "however" is set off at the beginning of the clause or someplace within it?  Makes no sense to me; it sounds like one of those silly Victorian rules that Oxonians invented because they didn't have anything better to do with their time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Note that no comma follows the preferred usage.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 12/31/2006 8:01:36 PM >

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RE: About puntuation - 1/1/2007 2:49:16 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks LaM...concessive is a new one on me.  Your reasoning is sound (what else is new).  Like Emperor, I tend toward Strunk, but  this makes sense.

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RE: About puntuation - 1/1/2007 3:11:29 AM   
MiLady2005a


Posts: 21
Joined: 11/6/2006
Status: offline 		I had an English professor tell me once that I wrote too "professionally" for his taste.  He graded me tough on all assignments, then gave me an "A" in the course. lol

I have no problem as long as most words are at least close to being spelled correctly and I can decipher the intent of the author.  It would help a few people get their point across if they used spellcheck.

Im not one to be obcessive over proper punctuation for internet conversations and forums.  Say what you have to say and be done. 



quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme

As long as it's decipherable, wtf cares? I have an MA in English, a BA in journalism, and what I learned from all those years (and all that money) was how to avoid looking like a pompous ass when I write in informally. In formal writing (such as in professional / paid pieces) it is only proper that one revert to all the vague and concrete pomposity one can muster.

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RE: About puntuation - 1/1/2007 3:29:51 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		Well, I don't think that proper spelling is obsessive, but as long as I can understand the content and all of the words aren't misspelled, then it's no big.

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