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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 5:48:00 PM

nikaa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

AquaticSub,

Goreans do NOT go around forcing people into slavery. Kajira conscent, often times beg the collars they wear just as they can beg release from their owners if they wish it or simply walk away. No one forces them to stay if they desire to leave.

I realize that. But the books Gor is based on allow for a woman to be ripped from a happy life and placed into a slavery without her care or consent. I will never be able to rest easy about that.

You are entirled to your opinions and beliefs but please do not confuse the books for how people(Goreans) live in the real life.

By the way,some would say that many of those women forced into slavery found happiness and freedom in slavery.

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika

The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.

Wakan Tankan Nici Un

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:02:32 PM

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

AquaticSub,

Goreans do NOT go around forcing people into slavery. Kajira conscent, often times beg the collars they wear just as they can beg release from their owners if they wish it or simply walk away. No one forces them to stay if they desire to leave.

I realize that. But the books Gor is based on allow for a woman to be ripped from a happy life and placed into a slavery without her care or consent. I will never be able to rest easy about that.

You are entirled to your opinions and beliefs but please do not confuse the books for how people(Goreans) live in the real life.

By the way,some would say that many of those women forced into slavery found happiness and freedom in slavery.

If you go back and actually read my post you see that I say "I realize most Goreans do not do this in real life".

Edited to add: It's a book. Why don't you go interview those who actually have been forced into sexual slavery? It's happening now in other countries and I'm sure there are plenty of horror stories to go around.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/3/2007 6:22:38 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to nikaa)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:02:48 PM

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Joined: 12/16/2005
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[fast reply]

OMG...comparing BDSM to Gor is like comparing oatmeal to grits.

You are always going to find someone who likes one but not the other. If you like grits you probably hate oatmeal and cannot understand how people put that mealy stuff into their pie-hole. If you like oatmeal you will never understand how people eat something that sounds like dirt and enjoy eating it.

All of you who hate Gor suck, because you have a very, very closed mind - and all of you who think BDSM is not right obviously suffer from the same malady.

"My kink is great but the other people are stupid / scare me!" Geez. Most of you claim to be opened minded, but the huge empty cavern between your ears is not what is meant by "open mind". Quit whining and eat some oatmeal. Or grits.

< Message edited by Invictus754 -- 1/3/2007 6:05:24 PM >

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to BDSM05478)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:02:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Has anyone read the Sleeping Beauty Triology?

I have read this series and thoroughly enjoyed it.
I also have read the first 25 books of the Gor series and enjoyed them. I was a Gorean for four years but will never be again because of what it has become. Many of the things of beauty that it hold and its concepts I carry in my heart but I will never play the game of deceit that is so prevalent in their roleplaying games and their real life games as well.
I have not yet seen either of the movies "The Pet" or "The Secretary" but do intend to.

I have however written an erotic Master/slave romance that is doing quite well and is the first of a trilogy. Part two is expected to be done in 2007.

(Yes, I am a published novelist.)...

But as far as Gor is concerned... I think I explained my reasoning earlier and will not go into depth with it again. Just that I had enough of it. It was not what Professor Lange envisioned, and some of the websites the claim to be authorized by him do not have his support. I have read many articles about Professor Lange and by him, and many letters he has written to SciFi conventions and elsewhere and no where does he support this. He did write the book "Imaginative Sex" This quote is from Wikipedia "Exploration and satisfaction through the mental and spiritual aspects of sexual intercourse is the thesis of Imaginative Sex, John Norman's nonfiction 1974 work. As is perhaps expected, Norman's concept of the mental and spiritual involves generally male dominant/female submissive BDSM fantasy scenarios, of which the bulk of Imaginative Sex is devoted to. Unlike the Spartan Gor, where it may be natural for men to enslave women, Norman repeatedly emphasizes the need for BDSM to be safe, sane and consensual."

To me this looks like strong evidence that Professor Lange DOES NOT support the Gorean Philosophy that the followers of Gor claim he does.

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:10:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa
Goreans do NOT go around forcing people into slavery. Kajira conscent, often times beg the collars they wear just as they can beg release from their owners if they wish it or simply walk away. No one forces them to stay if they desire to leave.

Given that there's stuff all over the news right now about a self-proclaimed "Gorean Master" convicted for attempting to kill his slave, I'm not sure I'd be completely confident that there was not somebody out there who was deluded enough to attempt doing exactly that.

Possibly one of the issues that folks have with people who say that they base their lifestyles and beliefs on these books is that a lot of nonconsensual stuff is depicted there, including rape, kidnapping, forced prostitution, etc. When that shit happens in the real world, we call it violent crime and we don't think it is a good role model to live by. When a fictionalized account of rape, kidnapping and murder is glorified and made to sound like a good and honorable thing that the women end up being happy and grateful for by the end of the book, there is a danger that someone who says they believe and follow what is written in the books might be crazy enough to really do those things. And apparently some people are.

Now what I've seen of serious Goreans who appreciate the philosophy of the books really doesn't bear out that they are doing any of these things. In general the "serious offline Gorean" crowd seems like a decent lot. But what I've seen of crazy, deluded and violent people under various labels would tend to make me wary of someone who claims to believe literally everything that is written in the books. If you go by what is written there, it would be okay to rape and kidnap any woman and sell her as a prostitute, if you had the strength of arm to do it. In fact she'll even love you for it and be thrilled about her new life. I think that anyone who believes that has major reality check issues, and is no one that I'd want anywhere near me.

As far as I can tell, Goreans don't do that.....but just as there's nothing stopping someone from killing homosexuals and claiming that the Bible told them to do this in order to be a good Christian, there's nothing stopping a similarly violent person from using the Gor books to justify such acts. You could argue that the individuals in question are not real Christians or are not real Goreans, and you'd be quite right. But you'd still be dead if you didn't see the warning signs in time.

(in reply to nikaa)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:27:03 PM

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I miss Iron Bear also ...

Welcome back benji ...

Small factoid that some may not know. For all the bad things that the books say "could" happen to a slave ... not a single slave character was killed in any of the 20+ books.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 1/3/2007 6:32:00 PM >

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:29:25 PM

nikaa

Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline

Najakcharmer,

In regards to the refence of the "gorean" man convicted of attempted murder.

One man’s actions do not always dictate the norm. There are those in every religion, culture, or lifestyle that are extremists.

It would be a great loss in my eyes to condemn the whole for one mans actions regardless of the group, culture, or lifestyle that person claimed affiliation with.

I also belief that if a man(or woman) is not grounded in reality they are easy prey to extreme behavior regardless of the motivating factor.

< Message edited by nikaa -- 1/3/2007 6:32:44 PM >

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika

The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.

Wakan Tankan Nici Un

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:29:33 PM

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I realize that. But the books Gor is based on allow for a woman to be ripped from a happy life and placed into a slavery without her care or consent. I will never be able to rest easy about that.

The apocalypse in Revelations isn't something I rest easy about either, and a lot more people base their lives on that fantasy than Gor. It also doesn't keep me awake at night, either.

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:31:55 PM

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Joined: 6/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

Goreans do NOT go around forcing people into slavery. Kajira conscent, often times beg the collars they wear just as they can beg release from their owners if they wish it or simply walk away. No one forces them to stay if they desire to leave.

OMG... Where have you been? You have not been reading the news in the last ten years have you?
The incident in Syracuse, NY where a man was found to have an underground bunker and was training women to be sex slaves. He had captured them off the streets. He was a self-proclaimed Gorean Master, and when he was found he was training the kajira in their positions. Not one of the seven women that were found with him would testify against him though the youngest was 14. He was only sentenced to six years and released after three for good behaviour. He himself admitted to having trained over 75 women and gave their names and addresses of the Masters he had sold them to. Not a single girl would testify against the man or their Masters.

There is the self-proclaimed Gorean Master in Arizona that killed three of his slaves because they did not satisfy him anymore and it was his right. They were after all only chattel.

There was the incident in England recently where a group was found having converted an underground air-raid shelter into a training ground. They had kidnapped over 25 women and were training them to be kajira. They called themselves the Gorean League of Britain.

I personally have been contacted by a woman on this site that forces people into financial desitution and then gives them the only way out by forcing them to submit themselves as slaves into their Gorean Group. To prove their devotion to their group they have to perform some sort of initiation. In the case that I was contacted in they were trying to think of a torture to perform on this woman that would force her to then torture her own 14 year old daughter to prove her loyalty.

No, you are right, NOT ALL GOREANS force people into collars, but I personally have known some that have, and you can read the papers every so often and find stories like these where others have. And you can NEVER tell me that a CHILD raised in a Gorean family that is raped as a child and brought up into the lifestyle before she is even 10 years of age was given a choice in the matter. I cannot tell you how many of these stories I have heard and of these stories I have heard, yes some are in regular BDSM families, but by far they are outnumbered by families that are Gorean by more than 10 to 1. I even know of one incident where the child was seven and when the police asked her if she knew what a Gorean Bow was, she showed them.

The Gorean Bow is NOT EVEN IN THE BOOKS. It is strictly a sexual use position created by online players and is nothing but a perversion of what the books offered.

These are some of the reasons I left Gor. The worst part about it is that though Goreans will say they are not BDSM and BDSMers will say that Goreans are not BDSM... the outside world sees them as the same thing. So whenever a Gorean does one of these Monstrous things it makes the whole BDSM lifestyle look as bad, and BDSM had nothing to do with it. If Gor is NOT BDSM then leave the BDSM boards and find your own... or admit you are a subbranch of BDSM and get over it.

(in reply to nikaa)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:35:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I realize that. But the books Gor is based on allow for a woman to be ripped from a happy life and placed into a slavery without her care or consent. I will never be able to rest easy about that.

The apocalypse in Revelations isn't something I rest easy about either, and a lot more people base their lives on that fantasy than Gor. It also doesn't keep me awake at night, either.

Neither book is perfect. Rest easy is a term I used to illustrate how I feel about. It doesn't trouble me save when I think about it, but on the issue I can not rest easy.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Stephann)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:38:28 PM

Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline

Hello Robert. ~smiling~

There are those who identify as Gorean who have sadistic and sickly extreme motivations; however, the news is full of vanilla and BDSM weirdos too. Fortunately, those sorts (across the board) are the exception and not the rule.

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to RobertCloud)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:40:24 PM

Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

AquaticSub,

Goreans do NOT go around forcing people into slavery. Kajira conscent, often times beg the collars they wear just as they can beg release from their owners if they wish it or simply walk away. No one forces them to stay if they desire to leave.

I realize that. But the books Gor is based on allow for a woman to be ripped from a happy life and placed into a slavery without her care or consent. I will never be able to rest easy about that.

...

< Message edited by whisperedsighs -- 1/3/2007 7:08:22 PM >

_____________________________

oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:43:45 PM

nikaa

Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
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If Gor is NOT BDSM then leave the BDSM boards and find your own... or admit you are a subbranch of BDSM and get over it.

A few points on this statment alone since I already stated my opinion on extremists. (see post 186 if you wish to read them)

Gor and BDSM are not the same, do they have some common ground. Yes, but they are also different in many ways. One is not better or worse in my eyes they are simply different.

You make several assumptions that I want to adress.

1. You make an assumption about my life choices and that I label myself Gorean. Not that I find fault in that label but you can find several threads where I stated blatently that I do no consider myself Gorean. Though I do have book knowledge as well as personal knowledge and life experiences with many Goreans.

2. You make the assumption that you have the power to tell someone to leave an open forum within this chat site. Last I checked the only ones that could tell someone to leave or show them the door were the MOD Gods.

3. This is an open forum to ANYONE that is a member of this site(CollarMe) and wishes to participate in the discussion regardless of the labels they wear.

< Message edited by nikaa -- 1/3/2007 6:48:52 PM >

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika

The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.

Wakan Tankan Nici Un

(in reply to RobertCloud)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:47:19 PM

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Ok now I see why this has been such a touchy subject.. it is indeed very volatile.
I don't want this to turn into a flame war ladies and gentlemen...please.

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"Never eat more than you can lift." ~ Miss Piggy

(in reply to nikaa)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:52:31 PM

Posts: 13029
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I tried to tell you....

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to KaramelGoddess)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:54:05 PM

nikaa

Posts: 357
Joined: 10/13/2004
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post deleted because in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter

< Message edited by nikaa -- 1/3/2007 7:00:42 PM >

_____________________________

Blessed Be,

Phoenix's Nika

The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.

Wakan Tankan Nici Un

(in reply to KaramelGoddess)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:58:41 PM

Posts: 618
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: NYC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertCloud

I have kept my thoughts to myself on this topic for quite some time. However, I think it is time I speak out.
Having spent four years as a Gorean of the Red Savage tribes and watching what actually goes on both in the online world and in the realtime world I have seen things that made me decide that my beliefs and Gorean philosophy did not fit with that of the majority of those that call themselves Gorean.

...

Thank you so much for this post...I think you sum up the problems (ie when something that may have once been wonderful or at least fun and emotionally satisfying) have been co-opted very well...

(in reply to RobertCloud)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 6:59:28 PM

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LOLOLOLOLOL,
You said it, it must be true.

Well, it is the hard -hitting documentaries such as this that change peoples lives, ain't it.

Yanno, about 6 months ago there was a Domme that pounded a couple quarts of wine up her husband/slave's ass and cakked the fucking guy......

so by logical extension------------well....

The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!!!

Chicken Little.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to RobertCloud)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 7:05:09 PM

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess

Ok now I see why this has been such a touchy subject.. it is indeed very volatile.
I don't want this to turn into a flame war ladies and gentlemen...please.

*Chuckles* You've done well to have it be so well-mannered this far. I wish you luck in keeping it flame free though.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to KaramelGoddess)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/3/2007 7:07:45 PM

Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobertCloud
OMG... Where have you been? You have not been reading the news in the last ten years have you?

Wow...I hope you aren't Christian, because their record in the last two THOUSAND years is a lot worse - no Gorean I have heard of has started a Holy War. And how many Christian fathers have abused their children sexually - or have killed them?

Now do you say that each person should be evaluated individually or do we continue to paint with the broad brush of stereotypes?

However, I'd rather live with a lunatic Gorean than a lunatic Christian...at least no one gives the lunatic Gorean credibility.

_____________________________

You never know your limits, until you push them
If slavery is a gift, the Africans were pretty fucking generous in the 1700 and 1800s, weren't they?

(in reply to RobertCloud)

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