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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 7:46:31 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Tal Leonidas,

I have to borrow this thread for a moment. I'm absolutely certain that it is wrote in the cliffnotes on some damn cliff that if your slave uses the computer and doesn't log herself back out, and as a result her owner has to mess with it. You can tickle the shit right out of her and perhaps even turn her over to the caste of ticklers headed by none other than some fellow named Hup.

Live well,

Bull


You must be omnicient. There was discusion of the girl being subjected to a good tickling in this house not two hours ago. 

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 341
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 9:19:15 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Are you talking about online here, or in someone's home?  What goes on in people's living room varies.  In some houses, you are expected to follow Gorean protocol as a visitor out of respect for the customs of your host.  Other houses, like mine, are more "hang-loose" about non-Goreans who are just there to socialize and learn.  If your host wasn't clear about what you were walking into before you got there, that sucks.  Sorry that happened to you.


I'm talking people that we knew in r/l from munch groups (public places, not at their own homes, although we were invited to one home once and did go .. we didn't stay long), and the incidents happened in chat rooms (after we had met them r/l) and at the public meetings.

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Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

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Profile   Post #: 342
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 9:55:20 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Are you talking about online here, or in someone's home?  What goes on in people's living room varies.  In some houses, you are expected to follow Gorean protocol as a visitor out of respect for the customs of your host.  Other houses, like mine, are more "hang-loose" about non-Goreans who are just there to socialize and learn.  If your host wasn't clear about what you were walking into before you got there, that sucks.  Sorry that happened to you.


I'm talking people that we knew in r/l from munch groups (public places, not at their own homes, although we were invited to one home once and did go .. we didn't stay long), and the incidents happened in chat rooms (after we had met them r/l) and at the public meetings.


Aw, that's unfortunate.  I'd kind of expect that from chatroom commandos, but if they were involved in your munch group too, that's a little a-holish in my opinion, especially if they didn't clue you in that you'd be expected to observe Gorean etiquitte when they invited you.

Several folks from Collarme have been to my place, both Gorean and not, and we've never had an issue.  Respect is one of the first things that you ought to learn about our ways.  I guess some folks never learn. 

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 343
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 10:02:46 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		The main couple involved in our issues (it was more than just these two people, but they were the ones who caused the biggest problems for us) we met in a non-gorean group ... it just happened to be the only group in the area at the time.  They kind of invaded and tried to take over. 

Granted, the 'leadership' at the time wasn't all that great either ... but at least she was honest about the fact that she was an attention whore that would stop at nothing to have all eyes focussed on her. 

The group (when we left) consisted of the attention whore and her 'Dom-of-the-week', the gorean couple mentioned, and about a dozen other members.  One of the other members was a gorean master who asked us to dominate him for a weekend, with no limits - actually suggested that we tie him to our (very open and public) apartment porch and just leave him there ... and got incredibly nasty when we told him that we weren't interested. 

Other, smaller incidents just solidified our feelings on the topic, but those are the main ones - all from people we knew in r/l, even if some of them did happen in online chat rooms (not gorean chats either).

_____________________________

Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

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Profile   Post #: 344
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 10:10:10 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

The group (when we left) consisted of the attention whore and her 'Dom-of-the-week', the gorean couple mentioned, and about a dozen other members.  One of the other members was a gorean master who asked us to dominate him for a weekend, with no limits - actually suggested that we tie him to our (very open and public) apartment porch and just leave him there ... and got incredibly nasty when we told him that we weren't interested.


Ah, OK, so it was a typical munch group then <grin>.  If this guy was asking to be dominated like that, he was about as much a "Gorean Master" as the "European Trained Old School Masters" you also find haunting such groups from time to time.  Something to look for in the future to tip you off is him describing himself as a "Gorean Master".  We just about never refer to ourselves that way.  We're simply Gorean men, or Gorean free men.  In our world Master is just an honorific, and a role.  We don't define ourselves by the slaves we keep.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 345
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 10:23:29 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		the master bit was mine - I don't recall if he ever referred to himself like that or not ... I do know that the slave he had for awhile was trained as a gorean, and he sold her to the couple   who then made a big deal about her slave bells and training her properly and whatnot.

I do know that just because someone claims something doesn't make it true ... like the submissive in the group who was convinced that he was a switch simply because he was good at topping (he sucked as a dominant, but really was a good top ... huge difference) - however, if that is the only type of gorean we run across, what else do we have to base our opinions on?

_____________________________

Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 346
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 10:32:04 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

however, if that is the only type of gorean we run across, what else do we have to base our opinions on?



Absolutely agreed.  You don't really have a lot to go on, and what you do is apt to be unimpressive.  Unfortunately, your chances of running across serious Goreans at a munch group, or a play venue, aren't really all that great.  We do gather, but mostly privately and among ourselves.  I think I've been to two munches in the last 15 years, both of which at the invitation of folks from Collarme.  More years ago than I want to admit, a group of us here in LA used to attend larger gatherings that were male-dom themed, but we never really fit all that well, and kinda stopped going when those moved to a permanent venue and became a male-dom night at an otherwise pansexual club.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 347
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 10:50:33 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Well..it seems I am now "Persona Nongrata"  However I am not the person who...used the "F" word..women phase.  I admit I did error about Gorean Free Women not posting here.  There was one.   I am open to making amends to any offended by my mistake.  Now, I would like to ask a few questions and let all the Non Goreans answer them.  These questions are from the books.
 
Okay first off it seems from these threads there is a basic belief that women are viewed in the Gor books as inferior. If this is so..then Why in the books are there
 
Tatrix..Women Politcal Leader?
Panther Girls?...a Group of runaway slaves and Free Women who formed tribes...they capture men and women to be sold as slaves to make money.  And there is that Full Moon dance of theirs and what happens to a captured man well..have to read the book.
Accounts of Earth Women, captured and sold as slaves on Gor but become Free and raise to some level of leadership on Gor? (Upward mobility)
If Gor is a Man's World...Why is the true Power controled by the Priest Kings..10 ft Cockroaches that answer to a giant Lady Bug?  (Cockroaches and Lady Bug are my interpetations)
Why are there Free Woman at all?
 
Now let's do some comparisons
 
Gor                                                                          BDSM
objectification             Good or Bad?              objectification                 Good or Bad?
(the table position)                                             (the table position)
 
Speech Restriction  Good or Bad?              Speech Restiriction       Good or Bad?
(3rd Person Speech)                                        (3rd Person Speech)
 
Humiliation                Good or Bad?              Humiliation                       Good or Bad?
(Calling a person                                              (Calling a person
names)                                                                names)
 
I know that BDSM Doms and Dommes use these techniques.  Now...let's see who answers?
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro
 

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 348
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 11:06:48 PM   
Leonidas


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Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Well..it seems I am now "Persona Nongrata"  However I am not the person who...used the "F" word..women phase.  



Dude.  Are you sure you want to introject this right now?  This is a very long thread that looks to be coming to a fairly decent and civil end.  Why are we rushing in with a gasoline can right now?

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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Profile   Post #: 349
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 11:08:14 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		We don't go to munches much (have only found two that aren't blatently anti-F/m dynamics or dominated [pun intended] by pros), and public play is totally not our thing ... so I wouldn't know about who normally frequents where. 

_____________________________

Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 350
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/4/2007 11:16:51 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		answers are for how I feel about them overall - doesn't matter if it's gorean or otherwise.

objectification - ok for short term scenes, bad when it appears to be an overwhelming part of the full time dynamics (thus, I don't like the "i'm a worm" boys ... blech ... just as an example).

speech restriction in general - pretty "eh" about it ... third person speech specifically - incredibly annoying and hard to follow

humiliation - again, ok for short term scenes, bad when it appears to be present in all aspects of a relationship

As for the rest of it ... I read some of the books, I saw that some of the earth women did gain their freedom and move up, missed the panther girls (and I think I'll keep it that way, thanks), wasn't impressed by the woman who was running a city in one of the books ... it ended with her accepting submission, if not slavery, to men anyway, and for the record, wasn't very impressed with the fidelity of the male characters either.  As for the giant bugs ... they were about the only part of the series that I liked - bugs are cool. 

_____________________________

Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

(in reply to SweetDommes)
Profile   Post #: 351
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 5:46:09 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		 
Greetings,

So glad you walked miles in this girls shoes to decide how she should feel on her time as a Domme.

Sorry that you do not agree with the processing that this girl has done on the why, hows and if or buts that occurred in that  unfullfilling closed chapter of her life.

Aren't perceptions and cognitive schemas based on personal life expereince great! they are individual and unique...

no one put those thoughts into my brain except the wonderful ex male subbie and closure.

end of story.

wishing you well

*edited for pre java quota typos

PS...a girl dosn't need a man to turn in her to a kajira..she needs desire, drive, self-disicpline, and a biological and pschyological
gene or two thrown into the mix for good measure.

this one does quite nicely by societial standards of the modern woman-with it going on-indepedant free thinking, self sufficient doesnt need a man type ,single parent, educated career...ya da ya dya da.
no wonder the ex subbie thought she would be a perfect candidate...*chuckles*

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorelei115

Leonidas~

You asked wayyy back earlier in the thread for exact postings of Gorean women saying that all most Dommes really needed to turn them to kajiras was a good man. Well, here are the links.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=754396

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=754509

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=754789

I too stayed out of this discussion because I did not feel I could be civil about it. It is one of the reasons that I do not and will not venture onto the Gorean boards again.

Edited cause I just can't spell to save my life today.


< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 1/5/2007 6:23:38 AM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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Profile   Post #: 352
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 6:12:41 AM   
NINASHARP


Posts: 295
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: NJ/NYC
Status: offline 		Fast reply, 

Sorry if I didn't read the 17 plus pages of replies, and if this has already been pointed out.

I have read some of Gor, though it was long ago, I feel like adding a comment from a different perspective in this thread.  First of all, I never found anything explicitly sexual in any of the Gor novels. The mind was left to the imagination I suppose? The men were superior to women, and IMO, were physically perfectly carved, muscular barbarian men, who were mentally and physically the stronger sex.

I doubt that any of the men were balding or over weight or even out of shape like the men are today on Planet Earth.  Perhaps I am mistaken, since it was a long time ago since I last read Gor, but from what I recall not all the men in the Gor novels were viewed stronger than all women. There were a few that were owned slaves as well. I'm only going on what I read and can remember here,  but there was a hierarchy and protocol for those found weaker with both men and women.

I feel the novels deplicted women to be less than equal because of their gender. Kinda like it was back in this country in the 1700's regarding race. I don't think many of the kajira's were consenting to who their Master's were, because they were taken and sold without rights. Some adored the one they served, because he was deplicted as some sort of a hero or Master of the Universe and was to be treasured and awed over much like a celebrity would be today.. 

I admit I do not know anyone personally into Gor. But I do know from what I had read, that if this was Planet Gor, instead of earth, you would have to seek high and low to find that kind of Gorean Master that is presented in the stories. Maybe George Clooney, but the men were not your average blue collar / white collar men of todays times.

JMO,

NINA  

_____________________________

My stiletto boots fit like gloves around his wrists.. as I locked them on I knew we were a match!

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Profile   Post #: 353
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 6:29:11 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		You said in that thread that the fantasy is believing the female has the control ... yet here you state that was your experience, your schemea, your perception ... so your reality ... ain't personal life experience grand ..its unique to the individual ... ergo so it's YOUR TRUTH ...that is must be everyone elses?  Thats what I don't get. ... How can you tell me or any other fem dom what her experience, her truth is?
 
Yet from your one experience you can catergorically state "the fantasy is believing the female has the control.  It's an illusion created by male sub who calls the shots" and further stated "The male subs are the ones with the power and to believe anything but is fantasy."
 
Sorry but this fem dom doesn't live in a fantasy world.... I call the shots ... perhaps if you did in your fem dom experience your feelings on the subject now would be vastly different.
 
Peace, love and mungbeans.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


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(in reply to fyreredsub)
Profile   Post #: 354
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 6:35:18 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		Please go back and read in several of those posts she said...it was her experience...


point...He was training her to be something she wasn't
and did not enjoy being for it is not her innate nature
so for her being a Domme was a fantasy world..........

this one has read enough of your posts to know that there was a time you experienced Gor only to realize it wasn't for you

same difference

we are who we are and called to live as we wish and where we find fulfillment

que sera cera

May she wish you well

Tried to leave off protocol in enough of a way not to offend or break her Master rule


< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 1/5/2007 6:36:48 AM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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Profile   Post #: 355
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 6:58:23 AM   
LadyLupineNYC


Posts: 618
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

Please go back and read in several of those posts she said...it was her experience...


point...He was training her to be something she wasn't
and did not enjoy being for it is not her innate nature
so for her being a Domme was a fantasy world..........



At risk of pointing out the obvious…


Several times you have gone back to your unsatisfying experiences as a Domme and your MUCH more satisfying experiences as a Gorian kijari.  Has it not occurred to you that you were never really a ‘dominate’.  Your musings on the ‘Gor Bashing’ posts on another forum that maybe the reason Dommes get their corsets in a twist over Gor is that we a secretly jealous, etc (paraphrasing here) to me just further suggests that the dissatisfaction with F/m rested within you. 

I have always been one of those ‘naturally dominate’ woman (with various levels of comfort- “oh my oh why can’t I be like the other girls…*pouts”*) who, b/c it was such a part of my nature never for the longest time though of being a Mistress/etc as something I would make part of my life since I felt I already had MORE than enough power exchange incidents and yet now here I am…Fantasy? I think not...sometimes, yes it is just 'play' but take it from a person who has had to learn temperance in dominace- it really just is how some people are.

It has been said once and a thousands times more- your experiences are yours alone.  Musing on the desires of another in a patently belittling manner just makes other question why one would feel the need to put others down those who feel different than yourself…and yes, this goes for both sides…

IMO
LL

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Profile   Post #: 356
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 7:02:28 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

Please go back and read in several of those posts she said...it was her experience...


Stating "the males subs are the ones with the power and to believe anything else is fantasy" kind says this is your belief about male submission and female domination and is what my post addressed..as it is a statement of belief, not an experience...and it is these kind of statements on either side of the for or against debates of any topic that kind of give people the opportunity to say "hey how dare you, that's not my experience at all" ... and leave some want to come out guns blazing in defense of their way.
 
If you had said "this male sub (the one you had an experience with) was the one with the power in our relationship and for me to believe anything else would have been fantasy", which would be you stating your experience ... I would have said, amen sister I'm hearing ya ... have challenged a number of subs, male and female, who are having relationships exactly like that and merrily masquerading their belief they are the slave to their one.



_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to fyreredsub)
Profile   Post #: 357
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 7:11:42 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressTess

Personally, I couldn't care less if someone wants to base their lives around Gor books, LotR, Debbie Does Dallas or Spongebob. What I have a problem with, is that it seems to me that they're used to justify sexism and bigotry. So all I see is a bunch of sexist bigots using fiction to justify and validate their personal beliefs.

Stating as fact that women as a group are inferior, while valid as your opinion to be sure, is certainly nowhere near the realm of "fact".





I don't think I could build my life around a fictional book or movie but I'd love to build it around chocolate. Oh, wait, I sort of do with all of it I eat. *pout* Just typing it makes me want chocolate -- I'm a addict!

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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Profile   Post #: 358
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 8:20:56 AM   
Lorelei115


Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/16/2006
From: Sin City
Status: offline
I neither know, nor honestly care how you spent your time as a Domme. As everyone else on this board already pointed out to you, its when you take your singular experience and use it talk as though everyone else has the same experience.. well that's pretty egotistical, don't you think? I think its YOU who needs to walk a mile in someone else's shoes, as it was you who put out the generalization that just because you experienced things in a certain way, everyone else (or a vast majority of them) does too.
And if that is truly not what you meant, you should have perhaps worded it differently. Language can be a tricky thing. Just remember how bad it feels to be stereotyped, and realize that with your words, intentionally or not, that is exactly what you were doing to female dominants.






quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub


Greetings,

So glad you walked miles in this girls shoes to decide how she should feel on her time as a Domme.

Sorry that you do not agree with the processing that this girl has done on the why, hows and if or buts that occurred in that unfullfilling closed chapter of her life.

Aren't perceptions and cognitive schemas based on personal life expereince great! they are individual and unique...

no one put those thoughts into my brain except the wonderful ex male subbie and closure.

end of story.

wishing you well

*edited for pre java quota typos

PS...a girl dosn't need a man to turn in her to a kajira..she needs desire, drive, self-disicpline, and a biological and pschyological
gene or two thrown into the mix for good measure.

this one does quite nicely by societial standards of the modern woman-with it going on-indepedant free thinking, self sufficient doesnt need a man type ,single parent, educated career...ya da ya dya da.
no wonder the ex subbie thought she would be a perfect candidate...*chuckles*

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorelei115

Leonidas~

You asked wayyy back earlier in the thread for exact postings of Gorean women saying that all most Dommes really needed to turn them to kajiras was a good man. Well, here are the links.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=754396

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=754509

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=754789

I too stayed out of this discussion because I did not feel I could be civil about it. It is one of the reasons that I do not and will not venture onto the Gorean boards again.

Edited cause I just can't spell to save my life today.





_____________________________

A sucessful life is not measured by what we do
But by the realization
Of who we are.

(in reply to fyreredsub)
Profile   Post #: 359
RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/5/2007 8:22:07 AM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		fast reply..
 
Greetings,
 
guess ya'll missed this lil bit......................
 
 
taken directly from the thread-----
 
"she believes that this was a fantasy game for her because he wanted kink and not reality for this girl at all  for she is not a Domme (by nature) and no doubt why she was so unfullfilled in this role. "
 
AND
 
 
 
"That was how it made her feel, nothing more nothing less.
Just because she felt that way after processing that time of her life doesn't mean other women will, altho she can't understand their reasoning thats fine, seems they dont understand hers either.
That is what makes all of us unique individuals ,we are the sum of our whol;e as well as the parts of our experiences. "


 
Wishing you all well




< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 1/5/2007 8:41:13 AM >

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 360
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