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RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 10:39:31 AM

missturbation

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Im not sure how to take that - can you explain please?

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RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 10:41:29 AM

SirKenin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Im not sure how to take that - can you explain please?

I should have made a point of quoting subfever in My post I guess. I can understand now how you might have misinterpreted that. Sorry about that.

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Post #: 22

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 10:50:54 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL zensee
This is a general discussion about the nature of conspiracy not a clearing house for opinions about 9/11, Kenedy, Wacco, Roswell or the "lunar landings".

Whats to discuss in general ? The word has a specific meaning. How can anyone enlarge on that ?

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 23

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 10:57:59 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL zensee
This is a general discussion about the nature of conspiracy not a clearing house for opinions about 9/11, Kenedy, Wacco, Roswell or the "lunar landings".

Whats to discuss in general ? The word has a specific meaning. How can anyone enlarge on that ?

Perhaps by framing the word "Conspiracy" in a specific context?

As in...

11. Pursuant to the Constitution, their oaths of office, their status as Executive Branch employees, and their presence in the United States, BUSH, CHENEY, RICE, RUMSFELD, and POWELL, and their subordinates and employees, are required to obey Title 18, United States Code, Section 371, which prohibits conspiracies to defraud the United States.

12. As used in Section 371, the term "to defraud the United States" means "to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful government functions by deceit, craft, trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest." The term also means to "impair, obstruct, or defeat the lawful function of any department of government" by the use of "false or fraudulent pretenses or representations."

13. A "false" or "fraudulent" representation is one that is: (a) made with knowledge that it is untrue; (b) a half-truth; (c) made without a reasonable basis or with reckless indifference as to whether it is, in fact, true or false; or (d) literally true, but intentionally presented in a manner reasonably calculated to deceive a person of ordinary prudence and intelligence. The knowing concealment or omission of information that a reasonable person would consider important in deciding an issue also constitutes fraud.

14. Congress is a "department of the United States" within the meaning of Section 371. In addition, hearings regarding funding for military action and authorization to use military force are "lawful functions" of Congress.

15. Accordingly, the presentation of information to Congress and the general public through deceit, craft, trickery, dishonest means, and fraudulent representations, including lies, half-truths, material omissions, and statements made with reckless indifference to their truth or falsity, while knowing and intending that such fraudulent representations would influence Congress' decisions regarding authorization to use military force and funding for military action, constitutes interfering with, obstructing, impairing, and defeating a lawful government function of a department of the United States within the meaning of Section 371.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 24

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 10:59:04 AM

missturbation

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ORIGINAL zensee
This is a general discussion about the nature of conspiracy not a clearing house for opinions about 9/11, Kenedy, Wacco, Roswell or the "lunar landings".

If you open a discussion about conspiracy theories surely conspiracy theories such as 9/11, kennedy etc are bound to be mentioned?
Im a little confused as to how you didnt post this thread but are speaking for the op (realone) in how he meant this discussion to go?
Also what happened to freedom of speech? You cant control others thoughts and feelings regarding to this post.

Oh and no worries Sir kenin - just wasnt sure if it was aimed at me at the time

< Message edited by missturbation -- 1/3/2007 11:02:00 AM >

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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Post #: 25

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 11:39:32 AM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Generally speaking, most people believe in what they want to believe in... and typically reject information that conflicts with their core belief systems.

I've found that more often than not, those who readily reject conspiracies theories tend to be invested in the status-quo. They also tend to be control-oriented people who are very uncomfortable with the possibilities that there are matters going on around them which are completely beyond their control. It's easier for them to just scoff at a conspiracy theory and just lump it in with more far-fetched theories... and label believers as tin-hat nutballs.

Thats a very interesting observation! Just to cover the polar opposite, do you have one for those who feel everything in life is a conspiracy as well?

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RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 1:46:13 PM

luckydog1

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Generally I find people that see Grand Conspiracies everywhere, have a hard time dealing with the messiness of life. It's confusing and there are billions of us each with our own agendas. Its just so simple and comforting to pretend there are just 300 bad men( or shapeshifting reptilain alien overlords) in the world making it all happen. People do not want to accept that the west and east have been fighting over the Mediteranian through all of recorded history.. Egypt was up, then the greco romans, then the moslems, and with the Elightenment the west was(and is currently) up. And Islam is coming back for another round. But it is much simpler to pretend it is just because of Isreal and 300 evil men/reptilian alien overlords. If we just got rid of those "Illuminati/Masons/Jews/Aliens/fill inthe blanks", the world we be perfect and peacefull.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 27

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 2:01:51 PM

luckydog1

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Zensee,
I was comparing 2 different conspiracies; the Burning of the Reichstag and 911. No one laughs at you if you say the Nazis had a conspiracy to burn the Reichstag. But generally they do if you bring up the 911 one. One is tin hat and the other is otherwise, just like the headline of this post. I was comparing and contrasting the 2. And I think I explained why they are different. I notice you could not attack any my point, so just pretend to be a Mod, and say I am pissing on the thread. Kind of sad really...

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 28

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 2:11:48 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Zensee,
I was comparing 2 different conspiracies; the Burning of the Reichstag and 911. No one laughs at you if you say the Nazis had a conspiracy to burn the Reichstag. But generally they do if you bring up the 911 one. One is tin hat and the other is otherwise, just like the headline of this post. I was comparing and contrasting the 2. And I think I explained why they are different. I notice you could not attack any my point, so just pretend to be a Mod, and say I am pissing on the thread. Kind of sad really...

You know, the failure on 9/11 of EVERY RESPONSIBLE PARTY from the NSA to the Air National Guard is much more palatable, isn't it?

Remember kiddes, DO NOT COOPERATE WITH ANY HIJACKERS OR KIDNAPPERS. EAT THEIR EYES AND HEART AND DRINK THEIR BLOOD!

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 29

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 2:37:50 PM

slavejali

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I try to keep an open mind.. I have a personal mantra " I know nothing....but maybe I will find out...". It seems the only logical stance to take for me. The only things I can really "know" are through my own personal direct experience...i.e. If I was a fly on the wall when something was happening. If I wasn't there, I can't know, I can only presume colored by my own personal opinions which may be totally off-base.

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Post #: 30

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 3:48:21 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

If you open a discussion about conspiracy theories surely conspiracy theories such as 9/11, kennedy etc are bound to be mentioned?
Im a little confused as to how you didnt post this thread but are speaking for the op (realone) in how he meant this discussion to go?
Also what happened to freedom of speech? You cant control others thoughts and feelings regarding to this post.

Is asking people to stick to the subject an affront to freedom of speech? Couldn't be worse than hijacking the thread.

I am not the OP but I did notice that the OP carefully framed a set of questions which did NOT mention any particular conspiracy. That care deserves my respect.

LD waded in with a bunch of details refuting 9/11 as a conspiracy, delivering what he seemed to believe was the one-two punch to settle the matter forever. That’s an invitation to debate 9/11. That’s a hijack, in my books. (And sorry LuckyDog, it doesn’t take a catalogue of “evidence” to argue that there are qualitative differences between “real” and “tin hat” conspiracy theories) (And no I did not respond to any of your points, precisely because I will not be party to your hijack attempt).

I was not pretending to be a Mod I was expressing an opinion (freedom of speech and all that...). Can you discuss conspiracies without referring to specific ones? Probably not. I mentioned Masons, after all. What I find rude and disruptive is when people try to redirect a discussion to the foot of their personal conspiracy soapbox.

FemSeeks – I think there are things to discuss about conspiracy in general, as this thread demonstrates. It is quite obvious that the word conspiracy, especially as introduced on this thread, is not simple to define or encompass.

Z.

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Post #: 31

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 4:28:18 PM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Generally I find people that see Grand Conspiracies everywhere, have a hard time dealing with the messiness of life. It's confusing and there are billions of us each with our own agendas. Its just so simple and comforting to pretend there are just 300 bad men( or shapeshifting reptilain alien overlords) in the world making it all happen. People do not want to accept that the west and east have been fighting over the Mediteranian through all of recorded history.. Egypt was up, then the greco romans, then the moslems, and with the Elightenment the west was(and is currently) up. And Islam is coming back for another round. But it is much simpler to pretend it is just because of Isreal and 300 evil men/reptilian alien overlords. If we just got rid of those "Illuminati/Masons/Jews/Aliens/fill inthe blanks", the world we be perfect and peacefull.

Indeed, the focus of power seems to naturally migrarate, east to west over time and is presently headed back over the Pacific to China, without the intervention of the 300 or their Reptillian Overlords (or do the 300 run the lizzards, I can never keep that straight). Of course, They might have timed ending of the British lease of Hong Kong to give nature a nudge. You never know...

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

I've found that more often than not, those who readily reject conspiracies theories tend to be invested in the status-quo. They also tend to be control-oriented people who are very uncomfortable with the possibilities that there are matters going on around them which are completely beyond their control. It's easier for them to just scoff at a conspiracy theory and just lump it in with more far-fetched theories... and label believers as tin-hat nutballs.

A very interesting observation. Not sure I agree with your specific diagnosis but it does make me wonder if there are predictive mental or emotional characteristics of people who tend to see conspiracies vs those who tend not to. It doesn't seem to be a Dom / sub split. Is it a matter of trusting vs suspicious natures - optomistic vs pessimistic? Anyone know of any studies on the matter? (And, at the risk of sounding Mod-lin, hopefully people won't simply make this an opportunity to label each other pathological.)

Z.

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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 32

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 4:32:15 PM

WyrdRich

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        One of the nifty little rules to live by that my father gave me was, "never attribute to outright malice, that which can be written off to simple stupidity." I don't find much evidence that our leaders are all that brilliant.

       Then there is the issue of credibility. Just for an example here, when I took a look at the 9/11 theories, the lead argument, on more than one site, was that the twin engine B-25 that crashed into the Empire State building didn't do anything like the damage we saw on that rotten Tuesday. Such an in-apt comparison told me right off that either the authors were completely ignorant of what they were talking about (simple stupidity) or they were intentionally trying to mislead. Whichever it may be, they lost their abilty to persuade me on the first page.

       And of course, I have a sadistic streak and conspiracy nuts are a lot of fun to tease, even if I think they might be on to something.

       Shame nobody could figure out Danny Casolaro's notes...

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 33

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 4:40:50 PM

luckydog1

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Zensee, I am honored that you want to hijack the thread to talk about me. But let's stick to the subject at hand ok? I am sure most folks find me a pretty boring subject. realone asked "So are there any conspiracies that are acceptable or certain ones, or none at all? " I attempted to give an answer and back it up with real examples. He also asked ,"Are there any conspiracies that people really believe happened at some point in history? if so which? How and when did you come the conclusion it was in fact a conspiracy? Before, during, after, ancient history? " and again I answered him as I see it with examples.
you write,"What I find rude and disruptive is when people try to redirect a discussion to the foot of their personal conspiracy soapbox. " But that is not what I am doing at all. I was comparing an example of a conspiricy that is generally accepted, and one that is not widley accepted, and often laughed at. Which was the OP. Why do you want to make it about me????

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 34

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 5:24:37 PM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I've found that more often than not, those who readily reject conspiracies theories tend to be invested in the status-quo. They also tend to be control-oriented people who are very uncomfortable with the possibilities that there are matters going on around them which are completely beyond their control. It's easier for them to just scoff at a conspiracy theory and just lump it in with more far-fetched theories... and label believers as tin-hat nutballs.

A very sweeping statement there. Stereo typing city.

"Generally speaking" and "more often than not" and "tend to be" are far removed from absolute statements.

I'm merely reflecting upon what my observations have been in life. Your mileage may vary.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 35

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 5:25:33 PM

juliaoceania

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This is the one area that I stay out of on this board. I do not agree with my Daddy about conspiracies, and who knows, he could be right for all I know. But I would find myself disagreeing with him on the topic so I do not go there on CM.

I am a member of a couple of forums about 911, one of them started by vets. I have mixed feelings about the whole entire matter. I do not get militant in expressing my views on the subject. I have many questions in my mind about it though.

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Post #: 36

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 5:28:57 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

I am willing to hear out all kinds of ideas. Everything is a conspiracy - anytime one person collaborates with another person, or with other persons, to do a thing. Only anti-intellectuals refuse to hear something based on it being a "conspiracy theory" instead of weighing the matter for themselves and arriving at their own conclusions.

That said, there are plenty of things that I consider interesting but dead ends from a pragmatic viewpoint and I can't waste a lot of time on them. For example: maybe the Illuminati exist, maybe there's more to skull and bones than meets the eye, maybe there's a Rosicrucian or templar or Masonic connection - but at the end of the day a powerful and monied elite is the same no matter what their philosophical motives or ancient ties. So I discard the mumbo jumbo, which is neither here nor there, and stick to what matters.

What matters is things like the international monetary scene. And I follow that money trail all the time. I don't care why the monied elite do the things they do - my general assumption is that simply want more money and power. Isn't that enough? I should trouble myself with trifles?

Ditto on most of this.

I am always willing to hear new ideas, and it troubles me when people are not willing to at least hear someone out and denounce them out of hand. I have had more than one person do this to me, most notably one of my professors that laughed at me when I stated that the Taliban was in the way of a pipeline deal, I had reputable sources even for that one.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 37

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 5:38:56 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
If you open a discussion about conspiracy theories surely conspiracy theories such as 9/11, kennedy etc are bound to be mentioned?
Im a little confused as to how you didnt post this thread but are speaking for the op (realone) in how he meant this discussion to go?
Also what happened to freedom of speech? You cant control others thoughts and feelings regarding to this post.

well i believe any topic needs the flexibility to explore all reasonable avenues and in my opinion the initial topic, at least those i post are typically a seed that can grow and branch out, see where it goes i guess as long as we dont totally lose sight of the original topicto the point of 40 pages of basket weaving! LOL

The 911 hoax thread i started i sort of asked people to stick the dropping of the buildings and i thought that since the thread died no one had any further interest in it. (that mey have been my fault as i felt that i had enough to come to a personal conclusion) If there are other angles to be explored there we can either go there and continue with the wtc buildings falling but which was pretty much primarly the buildings falling not so much in terms of a conspiracy so we can discuss that either here or go back there.. either way. i am sure however that everyone appreciates keeping as on topic as is reasonable....

What i prefer to avoid is 20 pages of a frivilous pissing contest though i know its all to easy to get dragged into one or drag someone else into one when people of strong conviction all get together to discuss very intense subjects such as this, pilotics and religion..

so as far as rules are concerned i tend to prefer way less to even a little more as i think this could be an enlighting subject to pursue.... even if it includes aliens LOL

[

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
I was comparing an example of a conspiricy that is generally accepted, and one that is not widley accepted, and often laughed at. Which was the OP. Why do you want to make it about me????

The big and i mean huge difference that i see in with hitler vs now, is that now is in the present and hitler is in the history books.   Its really pretty easy to read in a history book and conclusively determine after signed confessions that a conspiracy took place.

What really interests me is how does one break over all the barriers we have whether pro .or con to get it right in determining and concluding a possible conspiracy in the present when its quite possibly all under our noses, or better yet nip it in the butt immediately.   There have to be tell tale signs i would think. Much like if a car skidding out of controll is coming at you that is a sign to take evasive action. but how would we, or could we know?

Of course that means wading though mounds of false leads, propaganda and personal feels ect.   i think that would be an extremely valuable lesson for all of us no?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 38

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 5:40:28 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I am always willing to hear new ideas, and it troubles me when people are not willing to at least hear someone out and denounce them out of hand. I have had more than one person do this to me, most notably one of my professors that laughed at me when I stated that the Taliban was in the way of a pipeline deal, I had reputable sources even for that one.

bp, british petroleum i think?

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I am a member of a couple of forums about 911, one of them started by vets. I have mixed feelings about the whole entire matter. I do not get militant in expressing my views on the subject. I have many questions in my mind about it though.

i for one would love to hear them!

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/3/2007 5:45:17 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 39

RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/3/2007 5:48:40 PM

subfever

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Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Generally speaking, most people believe in what they want to believe in... and typically reject information that conflicts with their core belief systems.

I've found that more often than not, those who readily reject conspiracies theories tend to be invested in the status-quo. They also tend to be control-oriented people who are very uncomfortable with the possibilities that there are matters going on around them which are completely beyond their control. It's easier for them to just scoff at a conspiracy theory and just lump it in with more far-fetched theories... and label believers as tin-hat nutballs.

Thats a very interesting observation! Just to cover the polar opposite, do you have one for those who feel everything in life is a conspiracy as well?

Yeah... they're just a bunch of looney, tin-hat nutballs...

Seriously though, (and generally speaking again) they are less likely to be invested in the status-quo, and are more likely to see the world as a slanted playing field in favor of a malevolent, "invisible" power. They are more likely to be pessimistic in nature by seeing the negatives in things (glass half-empty). They aren't necessary distrustful of their peers or those at their level, but they do tend to be very distrustful of most who are in power.

Just my observations in life. Your's may differ.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 40

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