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RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 3:26:55 PM

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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FB,

Methinks this is the part of Godwin's Law you are having a problem with:

whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress

***

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any _intentional_ triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

***

Here's some more interesting reading about Godwin's Law, FB:

Godwin's Law FAQ

Enjoy. Maybe you can hit me with a thing or two.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 1/11/2007 3:34:24 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 3:27:49 PM

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

FirmKY,
Suggest you need to assume similar tactic used by the opposition. The method is if you don't like the response - change the question, or respond by saying what you 'really' meant by the question. That way you can claim offense and indignation and hope it distracts from the counterpoints made.

But aren't we at the cusp of new era? Ms Pelosi assured us that after 100 hours of the new congress all would be well. Has it been 100 hours? Do you count the flip flop on the 5 day congressional work week as part of the 100 hours? See there - wonder what Ms Pelosi 'really' meant by 100 hours.

Congress is considering a 'non-binding' referendum to protest the President's troop increase plan. I think my elementary school class got a similar commemorative referendum certificate during our school trip to see Congress. Powerful! With this new mandate they all professed to have why not cut off all funds? As much as Senator Kennedy is a poster child for Nancy Reagan's old anti-drug commercial (you know - "This is a Senator - This is a Senator on Drugs") at least he has the courage to actually put some teeth into his position in this case versus worrying about future election consequence. Cut the funds. If the goal is to bring the troops home, that's how to do it quickly and effectively. The new Congress pointed to Iraq as the reason they have and are in power. Well then - use it!

Look on the bright side. Poverty has been eliminated. We have a new Federal minimum wage in the works. That should be the end of that. Interestingly it's still below the CA minimum wage. I wonder if CA should allow their employers match the Federal amount since there was a standing ovation given to its passing in Congress.

quote:

The minimum wage in California, at $7.50, is 25 cents higher than the House-approved federal wage. Source: http://www.dailynews.com/ci_4989786

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 3:32:02 PM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread
is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever
argument was in progress.

I'll explain this S L O W L Y.

A *tradition* based on a Law, is not the Law.

A map based on the land, is not the land.

Now, when you say I violated GODWIN'S LAW, you're saying that I violated "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Which of course is a non-sense statement.

Of course, you've already amply demonstrated your trouble with parsing and constructing english sentences of any meaningful length or content, more data points of your inability to meaningfully participate are unneeded.

Thank you for playing, you are dismissed.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 3:39:26 PM

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Well, that's cute but fuck Godwin. Illegitimate appeal to authority. He is not even an asslicker apprentice in my world.

The war in Iraq is plainly fucked up. It don't matter how you cage the argument, in terms of terror, wmd, statesmanship, stupidity or republican, democrat, politic, neo conservative, conservative, centrist, liberal or flaming idiocy, or by not-so-subtle acts of see how good I can type. The fact is that we as americans, have once again stuck a fork in our eye.

There is no way that america can broker any kind of acceptable outcome.

Flush this fuckin' toilet. That is the only option, and will at some point be the one that will be implemented.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 3:58:04 PM

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

FirmKY,

Suggest you need to assume similar tactic used by the opposition. The method is if you don't like the response - change the question, or respond by saying what you 'really' meant by the question. That way you can claim offense and indignation and hope it distracts from the counterpoints made.

merc,

I do that sometimes, although very sparingly.

But generally, I just like letting them drone on and on to whatever other topic they end up at, and then knock em out of that one too.

Since they often have difficulty with facts and logic, they almost always end up on the floor eventually, regardless of the topic, and it's true merits.

There are some exceptions, though, and I do enjoy a good debate and discussion with those few who have a well-reasoned and supported philosophy to back up their beliefs.

Usually, then, we get into good natured and interesting discussions about the ulitmate meaning of life and everything (42, I think).

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 4:09:07 PM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

Illegitimate appeal to authority.

Is there a missed comma? In a logical debate, isn't ANY appeal to authority invalid?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 4:19:04 PM

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Illegitimate appeal to authority.

Is there a missed comma? In a logical debate, isn't ANY appeal to authority invalid?

Actually, no. Some appeals to authority are valid. Ron is correct in how he says it. You could also say appeal to illegitimate authority.

To make the determination if an authority is valid you have to have reliable information about the authority, their experience, their motivations and such before you can make that judgement.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 1/11/2007 4:20:04 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 4:26:56 PM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Illegitimate appeal to authority.

Is there a missed comma? In a logical debate, isn't ANY appeal to authority invalid?

Wikipedia:

quote:

An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic, consisting on basing the truth value of an otherwise unsupported assertion on the authority, knowledge or position of the person asserting it.

It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it).

It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source.

So yeah, it's a missed comma.

Specifically, The presence of the assertion in the Usenet FAQ of the implications of a conversation reaching the length at which the probability reaches one, are true, because they are in the Usenet Godwin FAQ, although the case that Godwin's Law's is more satire than science is admittable.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 1/11/2007 4:33:53 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 4:31:59 PM

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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Mine is a statement ; not a tautology.

Insert commas where you will.

The meaning is taken, I don't doubt.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 5:12:14 PM

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

KY,

Found that source you asked for. Was in my dock bag.

For information about the activities of Isreal since the early 1950s or so, go read...

Dangerous Liaisons
by Alexander and Leslie Cockburn
(The Inside Story of the US-Isreali Covert Relationship)

Another interesting book I found is:

Forbidden Truth
by Jean-Charles Brisard & Guillaume Dasquie
US-Taliban Secret Oil Diplomacy and the Failed Hunt for Bin Laden.

And please dont do what you did in an earlier post and dismiss the author as a crackpot and his/her/its research and sources as flawed without actually reading the book in question.

That is like saying that Van Gogh was a lousy painter because he was certifiably insane.

Enjoy your reading.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 5:15:12 PM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Looks like someone's done fucking around.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/13472/2/Frank-McHenry1-11-06.mov/

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 5:27:28 PM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

So, tell you what. You list all the times that I have attacked your dom personally, and I'll make a list of all the times he has attacked me, and we'll compare lists.

What do you say

Oh come on, I am on pain killers right now, my head is loopy, and if so inclined I could dig up so much smarmy crap you have posted with veiled insults as not to be believed. You have insulted my relationship as a matter of fact. I find you to be one of the most obtuse and abusive people on CM. You go around poking people to get a rise out of them.

Now you may not see your own flaws, we all have them, just some of us are more willing to admit our own before we go around pointing out other people's.

Once my head clears of pain meds, I may or may not feel up to digging up every nasty post you ever made... most likely I will not. I have better things to do in my life than engage in your grade school bullshit.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 5:46:36 PM

ModeratorEleven

Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline

To the assembled masses:

Folks, you cannot imagine how tiresome this is getting. If the goading, baiting, personal attacks and other junior high school behavior doesn't come to an end your access to these forums just might. Please keep that in mind before ckicking "OK" on your next salvo.

XI

_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/11/2007 6:48:05 PM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070112/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_military

I feel terrible for people who signed up for the US Military and the US Reserves.

It used to be such a nice and patriotic thing for people of that mindset to do. Helped them,
helped their country.

What a tragic waste.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/12/2007 6:51:30 AM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Sin,

From your link...

"The Pentagon also announced it is proposing to Congress that the size of the Army be increased by 65,000, to 547,000 and that the Marine Corps, the smallest of the services, grow by 27,000, to 202,000, over the next five years. No cost estimate was provided, but officials said it would be at least several billion dollars."

Given that we're seeing a REALLY DIFFERENT was you running the house under Frank, What are the odds they would ever GET the money to do that?

The fine balance will be Supporting the Troops while denying The Administration anything, and since Bush has (wrongly) tied his personal identification to "Wartime President", that's going to hurt.

But again, based on the Whomping Pat McHenry got from Barney yesterday, it looks like it's going to be a painful few years...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/12/2007 7:12:10 PM

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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Sin,

From your link...

"The Pentagon also announced it is proposing to Congress that the size of the Army be increased by 65,000, to 547,000 and that the Marine Corps, the smallest of the services, grow by 27,000, to 202,000, over the next five years. No cost estimate was provided, but officials said it would be at least several billion dollars."

Given that we're seeing a REALLY DIFFERENT was you running the house under Frank, What are the odds they would ever GET the money to do that?

The fine balance will be Supporting the Troops while denying The Administration anything, and since Bush has (wrongly) tied his personal identification to "Wartime President", that's going to hurt.

But again, based on the Whomping Pat McHenry got from Barney yesterday, it looks like it's going to be a painful few years...

What I suspect will end up happening is:

1) The Democratic majority, during budget deliberations, will try to scale back the budget in order to force the issue and have Monkeyboy bring the troops home.

2) The Republican / War supporters will filibuster and waste time wrangling about next year's budget, so it will not pass, and the (acronym is CR, Capital Request) -

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/worst_congress_ever/page/4)

- amount of money used last year will automatically get allocated for next year.

This, I suppose, is why the Pentagon has announced that all those soldiers (active and reserves) are now banished to Iraq, in essence, forever.

1) They wont get more money to increase the size of the military, so they have to keep it at current levels.

2) Everybody sees how fucked the people currently in the military are, so nobody is signing up.

3) Since nobody is signing up, the only way to keep it at current levels is to not let the soldiers come home.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/12/2007 9:58:07 PM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Sin,

From your link...

"The Pentagon also announced it is proposing to Congress that the size of the Army be increased by 65,000, to 547,000 and that the Marine Corps, the smallest of the services, grow by 27,000, to 202,000, over the next five years. No cost estimate was provided, but officials said it would be at least several billion dollars."

Given that we're seeing a REALLY DIFFERENT was you running the house under Frank, What are the odds they would ever GET the money to do that?

The fine balance will be Supporting the Troops while denying The Administration anything, and since Bush has (wrongly) tied his personal identification to "Wartime President", that's going to hurt.

But again, based on the Whomping Pat McHenry got from Barney yesterday, it looks like it's going to be a painful few years...

What I suspect will end up happening is:

1) The Democratic majority, during budget deliberations, will try to scale back the budget in order to force the issue and have Monkeyboy bring the troops home.

If so, it will be while in the backroom, they're telling Bush, "We can SHUT OFF THE MONEY ALL TOGETHER, the Iraqi AUMF is invalid, and it will take ONE VOTE to turn off the spigot."

Since they're making mention of it already, it seems like the way to go, directly using the power of the purse.

quote:

"2) The Republican / War supporters will filibuster and waste time wrangling"

Not after what I saw Barney Frank do to Pat McHenry. Seems like these guys, after all this time in control of the House, don't really UNDERSTAND proper parlimentary procedure, and *IF* the speaker sticks strictly to the rules, then they're fucked.

This was sublime:

quote:

From: Boston Globe
The House had moved on to stem-cell research by yesterday, but Representative Patrick McHenry , a North Carolina Republican, rose to ask about the minimum wage bill.

Frank, a well-known master of parliamentary tactics, banged the gavel: McHenry's query wasn't a "parliamentary inquiry," he said. Yet McHenry persisted. How could he find out whether the bill was indeed what he thought it was, he asked Frank.

One option would be to ask the sponsors during normal debate time, Frank responded.

"The other way I could say that the gentlemen could find out would be by reading the bill," Frank added. "Read the bill and it will tell you."

RTFB! READ THE FUCKING BILL!

Remind me again, WHO was it who introduced the "No Amendments To Bills" rule in the house again?

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 1/12/2007 10:00:17 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/12/2007 10:02:00 PM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

So, tell you what. You list all the times that I have attacked your dom personally, and I'll make a list of all the times he has attacked me, and we'll compare lists.

What do you say

Oh come on, I am on pain killers right now, my head is loopy, and if so inclined I could dig up so much smarmy crap you have posted with veiled insults as not to be believed. You have insulted my relationship as a matter of fact. I find you to be one of the most obtuse and abusive people on CM. You go around poking people to get a rise out of them.

Now you may not see your own flaws, we all have them, just some of us are more willing to admit our own before we go around pointing out other people's.

Once my head clears of pain meds, I may or may not feel up to digging up every nasty post you ever made... most likely I will not. I have better things to do in my life than engage in your grade school bullshit.

I have to ignore a lot of nasty posters and posts also.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/12/2007 10:09:42 PM

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

So, tell you what. You list all the times that I have attacked your dom personally, and I'll make a list of all the times he has attacked me, and we'll compare lists.

What do you say

Oh come on, I am on pain killers right now, my head is loopy, and if so inclined I could dig up so much smarmy crap you have posted with veiled insults as not to be believed. You have insulted my relationship as a matter of fact. I find you to be one of the most obtuse and abusive people on CM. You go around poking people to get a rise out of them.

Now you may not see your own flaws, we all have them, just some of us are more willing to admit our own before we go around pointing out other people's.

Once my head clears of pain meds, I may or may not feel up to digging up every nasty post you ever made... most likely I will not. I have better things to do in my life than engage in your grade school bullshit.

I have to ignore a lot of nasty posters and posts also.

First rule of the Internet: Don't Take The Internet TOO Seriously.

Remember that old saw, "It Takes All Kinds"? Well, itt doesn't TAKE "All Kinds". We simply HAVE "All Kinds"..

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/12/2007 10:18:58 PM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

First rule of the Internet: Don't Take The Internet TOO Seriously.

Remember that old saw, "It Takes All Kinds"? Well, itt doesn't TAKE "All Kinds". We simply HAVE "All Kinds"..

Very good rule that my Daddy reminds me of mostly, but in my defense, root canals lessen one's ability to laugh at one's self

I hate denistry, but I will not wait 5 years until my next visit relying on brushing and flossing to soley protect me

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/12/2007 10:19:23 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to farglebargle)

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