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RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 11:34:08 AM

ProtagonistLily

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Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

But I don't consider her husband to be her owner/Master. I consider the girl to be self-owned. She has full power to give herself away...no one else has that power.

Taggard

Oy vey...

To me this is all symantics when you get right down to it. Being able to self define for purposes of winning an argument is simply too easy a defense when there are real, valid questions on the table.

What it seems to me is this debate is really the differance between "state of mind" and the reality of 21 century socio-political structure.

I can say that butter comes from frogs, build a good argument, negate all the history and the data, and stand firm that it truely is Frog-Butter. But it's not. Butter is never going to come from Frogs, regardless of what I say or believe for myself. Believing it's Frog-Butter is a state of mind. The reality is of course, entirely differant.

Some in this discussion have questioned the validity of the ownership on the basis that there's a husband in the background somewhere, and I think that he is an important player here. One would could certainly make the case that given that he's agreed and consented to this 'ownership' He in fact is truely the Master, rather than the one who calls himself the owner of said slave. By the very virtue that he is allowing this to occur, he is to some degree manipulating the situation to his benefit, while retaining his wife. Given the very framework and context in which the interaction and contractual agreement has been determined, I see the husband as having much more control than the Master in this situation.

So, the argument could go as far as to say that there is an implied contract that he holds that is higher than the slave contract of the one who calls himself 'owner.' Something to think about.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 11:37:20 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
sure, she is free to do as she wishes, the problem i see with that is that eventually something will have to give....more than likely the husband will get screwed over in the long run.

I don't think this must be the case. Granted, it will take three extrordinary people to pull it off, and they will have to execute the sale with great sensitivity, but I think it can be done. At least, I am willing to try.

I have no desire to impinge on Celestia's marriage or family life. I just need to own and train her in my style. I think she has the complimentary need and it can be met without screwing over her husband. I guess time will tell...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 11:45:55 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Some in this discussion have questioned the validity of the ownership on the basis that there's a husband in the background somewhere, and I think that he is an important player here. One would could certainly make the case that given that he's agreed and consented to this 'ownership' He in fact is truely the Master, rather than the one who calls himself the owner of said slave. By the very virtue that he is allowing this to occur, he is to some degree manipulating the situation to his benefit, while retaining his wife.

Darn...Leonidas was supposed to make this conclusion in response to another post.

I can not disagree with anything you say. Of course, I don't see it that way. In my view, husbands are husbands and owners are owners. A man can be one, or he can be both. Being one, however, doesn't make you the other.

Taggard

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 3/2/2005 11:46:50 AM >

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 11:47:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
One would could certainly make the case that given that he's agreed and consented to this 'ownership' He in fact is truely the Master, rather than the one who calls himself the owner of said slave. By the very virtue that he is allowing this to occur, he is to some degree manipulating the situation to his benefit, while retaining his wife.

You're going to have to explain how "accepting that someone else has ultimate authority" means that they are somehow the master and manipulating the situation.

If I had a girlfriend and she accepted that I couldn't go out with her that night because the Owner wanted something else, but still wanted my friendship, would that be her manipulating things and somehow really the master in all of this? I don't think so.

quote:

Given the very framework and context in which the interaction and contractual agreement has been determined, I see the husband as having much more control than the Master in this situation.

How? The husband certainly has a lot of understanding and flexibility, but he doesn't have any authority.

A brief example, perhaps not serious enough, but the Owner wants my hair long. My boyfriend also has long hair and I am convincing him that he needs to cut a few inches to make it spiffier. He mentioned once that I should have to cut my hair too. I told him that wasn't possible because the Owner said no. There was no argument over it, no debate, it's simply what is. He's going to cut his hair and I'm not.

quote:

So, the argument could go as far as to say that there is an implied contract that he holds that is higher than the slave contract of the one who calls himself 'owner.' Something to think about.

Lily

I still don't get the connection there. The husband has as many rights as any husband does- to stay in the relationship and work with the wife or not based on his fulfillment.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:05:46 PM

ruffnecksbabygir

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Joined: 1/4/2005
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ok, i'm getting the whole concept of woman being able to serve as wife and slave, to a Master and her husband, all three being exceptional people of course....now, if you'd please enlighten me on why on earth would the slave wish to continue the marriage is she has an owner? hmmm, maybe i should re phrase my question.... if the woman, in this case celestina, has such deep desires to serve, she is a slave, she wishes to have a Master her hubby obviously is not Master material...i am assuming all of this of course, why stay in the marriage? she is willing to have the most of intimate relationships with a man that one could have by being their slave so obviously the marriage vows taken are not priority to her needs as a slave....why stay in a marriage where one needs to look elsewhere for their satisfactions because they are not being met at home.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:06:08 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
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From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
If I had a girlfriend and she accepted that I couldn't go out with her that night because the Owner wanted something else, but still wanted my friendship, would that be her manipulating things and somehow really the master in all of this? I don't think so.

Yep yep...damn...you really get it. Not only that, but you are really living it.

You give me hope, EmeraldSlave!!!

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:12:01 PM

ruffnecksbabygir

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ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
If I had a girlfriend and she accepted that I couldn't go out with her that night because the Owner wanted something else, but still wanted my friendship, would that be her manipulating things and somehow really the master in all of this? I don't think so.

but you are comparing marriage to friendship....you did not take vows with your friend, you are not legally bound to your friend, you did not make a marital committment to your friend.... so of course she would not be the master in all this because she has no place in the relationship other than being your friend...a spouse on the other hand is suppose to be your life long partner, your other half... it's a bit different my friend.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:12:38 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
now, if you'd please enlighten me on why on earth would the slave wish to continue the marriage is she has an owner?

I will try to answer this generically, as I really can't speak from any knowledge of Celestia's situation.

There are many reasons why people stay in marriages that are not 100% fulfilling and do not meet every single need they have. Sometimes it is for the children. Sometimes it is that they love their spouses and get everything they possibly could want from them, except the one thing they get from their owner.

I want a slave (which in my case, means property). I don't want a lover or friend or submissive spouse. I am not willing to provide those things to my slave, so she had better have a source for them.

People don't need to have all their needs met by their primary partner. Personally, I think I am wired such that it is impossible for my primary partner to meet all of my needs. Perhaps a married slave feels the same way. She does not want her primary partner to own her. She wants a partner (who will have a say, but not the final say) in raising the kids and paying the bills. However, she still needs to be owned...and not by her partner in life.

I am kind of rambling here, but the point is that there is no one answer as to why some people need primary and secondary relationships to satisfy all of their needs. They just do...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:14:53 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
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From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
a spouse on the other hand is suppose to be your life long partner, your other half...

You are projecting your definition of spouse onto other people. For some, a spouse is less of a commitment then friendship. It is a legal device used to get a green card or a tax break.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:23:04 PM

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Taggard, I think the lightbulb is finally going off in my head. You do not want the full responsibility of owning a slave, you want their partner to be responsible and you have all the fun, is that right? But what if the partner does not want to be second fiddle to an Owner? Do they simply divorce? Now, if he agrees, no problem. I get it. Although I have a little side note, if they divorce because of this situation the partner can sue for damages in some states because a marriage contract is legal and slave contracts are not in this day and age.

PS: Please forgive all my questions folks, I just try to understand everything about this lifestyle.

< Message edited by sweetpleaser -- 3/2/2005 12:24:55 PM >

_____________________________

~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:31:33 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpleaser
You do not want the full responsibility of owning a slave, you want their partner to be responsible and you have all the fun, is that right?

Sure, I have been accused of that. I can't really argue that it is far from the truth. I seek a slave who will manage themselves, for the most part. If she were single, I would still want her to manage herself, for the most part. The marriage just lets me sleep better at night knowing she has a life partner to help her manage her life.

quote:

But what if the partner does not want to be second fiddle to an Owner? Do they simply divorce?

That is something the slave would have to work out. Their marriage is of little import to me, other then the fact that it places some limitations on the service my slave can give me.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to sweetpleaser)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:33:17 PM

ProtagonistLily

Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
One would could certainly make the case that given that he's agreed and consented to this 'ownership' He in fact is truely the Master, rather than the one who calls himself the owner of said slave. By the very virtue that he is allowing this to occur, he is to some degree manipulating the situation to his benefit, while retaining his wife.

You're going to have to explain how "accepting that someone else has ultimate authority" means that they are somehow the master and manipulating the situation.

Um, A) I don't have to do anythying. B) I didn't say that 'accepting that someone else has ultimate authority", so I suggest you go back to the person you are quoting and ask them to explain that to you.

quote:

If I had a girlfriend and she accepted that I couldn't go out with her that night because the Owner wanted something else, but still wanted my friendship, would that be her manipulating things and somehow really the master in all of this? I don't think so.

Um, I'm not bashing Taggard, or anyone else here. I simply tossed out another way to look at the situation, so, I'm not going to argue with you here either.

quote:

Given the very framework and context in which the interaction and contractual agreement has been determined, I see the husband as having much more control than the Master in this situation.

How? The husband certainly has a lot of understanding and flexibility, but he doesn't have any authority.

Well, if the girl has asked the Husband to consent to this arrangement, she has given him at least some authority. She submitted to his authority by bringing him into it through asking permission in the first place.

quote:

A brief example, perhaps not serious enough, but the Owner wants my hair long. My boyfriend also has long hair and I am convincing him that he needs to cut a few inches to make it spiffier. He mentioned once that I should have to cut my hair too. I told him that wasn't possible because the Owner said no. There was no argument over it, no debate, it's simply what is. He's going to cut his hair and I'm not.

quote:
So, the argument could go as far as to say that there is an implied contract that he holds that is higher than the slave contract of the one who calls himself 'owner.' Something to think about.

Lily

I still don't get the connection there. The husband has as many rights as any husband does- to stay in the relationship and work with the wife or not based on his fulfillment.

I got the connection. Honestly, that's all the counts to me.

L

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:44:31 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Well, if the girl has asked the Husband to consent to this arrangement, she has given him at least some authority. She submitted to his authority by bringing him into it through asking permission in the first place.

And what if she says, "I am going to do this, and you can either stay or go," and he stays?

Not sure what the real story is, cause it really makes no nevermind to me. Her behaviour as property would not change one iota if she was there with his asked and given consent, or simply because she was worth not leaving.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:45:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
a spouse on the other hand is suppose to be your life long partner, your other half... it's a bit different my friend.

I agree with life long partner, in fact I used those exact words in my definition of a spouse. But other half? I'm poly, everyone in our relationship has a lot more than "other halves."

If you find the analogy faulty, that's fine. But someone accepting the situation that another person is in doesn't make them the master of anything.

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:48:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
now, if you'd please enlighten me on why on earth would the slave wish to continue the marriage is she has an owner?

Marriage has a lot of legal/medical benefits involved which are very beneficial. Also, if children are involved, it's far more socially acceptable to be married. The Owner and I will certianly never marry. But if I met someone and eventually wanted to be a life partner, with all the benefits that marriage provides, I can't see why I shouldn't have them (unless the Owner says no obviously).

quote:

why stay in the marriage? she is willing to have the most of intimate relationships with a man that one could have by being their slave so obviously the marriage vows taken are not priority to her needs as a slave....why stay in a marriage where one needs to look elsewhere for their satisfactions because they are not being met at home.

I'm answering this from a poly perspective, so "why would you have more than one?" is simply a given for me. For someone who was cheating, my guess is that they do want their cake and to eat it too.

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:51:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpleaser
You do not want the full responsibility of owning a slave, you want their partner to be responsible and you have all the fun, is that right?

I won't speak for him, but I know that's not the view of the Owner.

quote:

But what if the partner does not want to be second fiddle to an Owner? Do they simply divorce?

Suggesting that one of my partners is "second fiddle" is as silly a question as saying that a dom with two subs means that one must play second fiddle to the other. Each of my relationships is very important in my life without a "second fiddle" ranking system. They all understand that the Owner is primary in terms of authority, but that has nothing to do with level of commitment.

If the partner decided he/she no longer wanted to be in that situation, ABSOLUTELY they would leave. I wouldn't want them to be in a relationship that was not fully true to themselves.

quote:

Although I have a little side note, if they divorce because of this situation the partner can sue for damages in some states because a marriage contract is legal and slave contracts are not in this day and age.

Very true.

(in reply to sweetpleaser)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 12:59:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Well, if the girl has asked the Husband to consent to this arrangement, she has given him at least some authority. She submitted to his authority by bringing him into it through asking permission in the first place.

I gave him a choice, not authority. The Owner can give me a choice, that doesn't mean I have authority, it means I have a choice.

I think saying that agreeing to a choice means you submit carries things way too far. A dominant can agree to a choice presented to them (for example, they can choose to either wear clothes or not) but that doesn't mean they are submitting to that choice.

Now, the husband has to accept the Owner's authority over me and what consequences that might bring in order to be with me, he does not have to accept any authority over himself. And any ethical Owner would not try to assert authority over someone else, directly or indirectly (ie through me) unless they had willingly agreed to it.

quote:

So, the argument could go as far as to say that there is an implied contract that he holds that is higher than the slave contract of the one who calls himself 'owner.' Something to think about.

Lily

How? The husband can end the marriage as can the Owner, yes. But the husband cannot tell the wife to end the relationship with the slave, while the Owner can tell the slave to end the relationship with the husband.

quote:

I got the connection. Honestly, that's all the counts to me.
L

Then what's the point of putting your thoughts out for discussion if you aren't going to explain them or help others understand? You should put a disclaimer on your posts that you don't plan on doing that so people don't make the mistake of asking for further insight or clarification.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 1:14:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Well, if the girl has asked the Husband to consent to this arrangement, she has given him at least some authority. She submitted to his authority by bringing him into it through asking permission in the first place.

And what if she says, "I am going to do this, and you can either stay or go," and he stays?

Not sure what the real story is, cause it really makes no nevermind to me. Her behaviour as property would not change one iota if she was there with his asked and given consent, or simply because she was worth not leaving.

Taggard

This is the most frightening and telling post in a terrifying thread.

_____________________________

Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementia.
There is no great genius without a mixture of madness.
-Aristotle

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 1:14:31 PM

Posts: 689
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Florida
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quote:

A brief example, perhaps not serious enough, but the Owner wants my hair long. My boyfriend also has long hair and I am convincing him that he needs to cut a few inches to make it spiffier. He mentioned once that I should have to cut my hair too. I told him that wasn't possible because the Owner said no. There was no argument over it, no debate, it's simply what is. He's going to cut his hair and I'm not

By this example the husband would be second fiddle because his opinion would mean nothing. Isn't that right? I understand what you are refering to in a poly situation, being that all parties agree but I think what I am pointing out is the poor husband who has a wife who wants to be owned all of a sudden and he has to accept it if he wants to keep her in the marriage. To me this situation is on the verge of blackmail. "I'll stay married to you as long as I can go play with an Owner and you can't say a thing about it."

Again, I have said that if all parties agree, so be it--be merry. So I am not bashing what you and Taggard find comfortable.

_____________________________

~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? - 3/2/2005 1:22:52 PM

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I think you are right in that most women today, do not define marriage the same as they used to. But wouldn't someone in this lifestyle define marriage more closely to the older ways? Just curious. I do, but that's just me. I don't believe everyone should take my views and run with them, nor do I think that I'm unique in my views.

I guess I've just never understood entering or staying in a situation that wasn't good for me. Spiritually, mentally, physically.... for whatever reason.

As for the pre civil war situation versus now.... sure. But it seems, that pre civil war.... permission had to be sought to do all of the above. Or made to do, what someone wanted you to do. I'd like to think now, with our freedom to choose how we want to live, and with whom..... people will use it. For those that can manage having their cake and eating it too, without confusing or messing up children that get stuck in the middle.... go for it. If all it involves is adults, well..... that's the thing I've always loved about this lifestyle, the rules you follow are those you've agreed upon by your partner.

So, sure.... you can absolutely get married to nilla guy, or girl, and trot off to have your Master too. But I'm willing to bet, their will absloutely come a day when nilla hubby or wifey, is gonna say...hey I'm kinda done taking back seat to the other guy. But that's just a guess on my part. Or, in part, it could be the relationships I've watched this happen to.

Tempest's pet

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

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