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RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 5:19:00 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

This has shit to do with the actual Vietnam war or war protesters in general and I dont like how it seems this thread is trying to deflect towards that. It has to do with one very fucked up individual who put her head so far up her ass that she has to see though her neck.


True or False? Was South Vietnam a rogue nation once Diem refused to obey the UN mandate of national elections?


Dont care.


Despite the fact that YOU do not care, it doesn't change to potential validity of the position that South Vietnam was in fact an unlawful, rogue state, and the United States actions in supporting it were in fact War Crimes.

Your lack of concern for whether the orders issued in Vietnam were in fact Lawful, could explain a lot about the discipline problems we see today.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/1/2007 5:21:05 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Rumtiger)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 9:13:08 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Despite the fact that YOU do not care, it doesn't change to potential validity of the position that South Vietnam was in fact an unlawful, rogue state, and the United States actions in supporting it were in fact War Crimes.


The United States of America was once a an unlawful rogue state, I hereby demand you return to the soveriegnty of Her Majesty the Queen. We shall then finish giving the French the kicking they truly deserve as they assisted you.



_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 9:21:59 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Despite the fact that YOU do not care, it doesn't change to potential validity of the position that South Vietnam was in fact an unlawful, rogue state, and the United States actions in supporting it were in fact War Crimes.


The United States of America was once a an unlawful rogue state, I hereby demand you return to the soveriegnty of Her Majesty the Queen. We shall then finish giving the French the kicking they truly deserve as they assisted you.


Non-seq. But thanks for giving it a try.

Let's try to stay focused here. You derided those who called the US actions during Vietnam War Crimes.

So the first question is: WERE THEY War Crimes?

Most broadly, if the war was NOT lawful, then there's a great case for considering that they were war crimes.

So the first thing to examine is "Was the Vietnam War lawful?" And in that analysis we come to the question, "Were the opposing governments Lawful?" Directly bringing to the forefront of Diem's refusal to obey the UN, and the US's support of his refusal.

So that's the question. Was South Vietnam a lawful nation, after Diems refusal to obey the UN mandates for national elections? If NOT, then the US was wrong in supporting him ( From an admittedly Abstract Legal point of view, but isn't this all? )



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 9:41:28 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Despite the fact that YOU do not care, it doesn't change to potential validity of the position that South Vietnam was in fact an unlawful, rogue state, and the United States actions in supporting it were in fact War Crimes.


The United States of America was once a an unlawful rogue state, I hereby demand you return to the soveriegnty of Her Majesty the Queen. We shall then finish giving the French the kicking they truly deserve as they assisted you.


Non-seq. But thanks for giving it a try.

Let's try to stay focused here. You derided those who called the US actions during Vietnam War Crimes.

So the first question is: WERE THEY War Crimes?

Most broadly, if the war was NOT lawful, then there's a great case for considering that they were war crimes.

So the first thing to examine is "Was the Vietnam War lawful?" And in that analysis we come to the question, "Were the opposing governments Lawful?" Directly bringing to the forefront of Diem's refusal to obey the UN, and the US's support of his refusal.

So that's the question. Was South Vietnam a lawful nation, after Diems refusal to obey the UN mandates for national elections? If NOT, then the US was wrong in supporting him ( From an admittedly Abstract Legal point of view, but isn't this all? )




farglebargle:

I told the Diem brothers not to get into an APC full of jareheads.
I told John Kennedy not to take the convertable to Dallas.
I got my half over the bridge.
thompson

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 10:05:59 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Despite the fact that YOU do not care, it doesn't change to potential validity of the position that South Vietnam was in fact an unlawful, rogue state, and the United States actions in supporting it were in fact War Crimes.

The United States of America was once a an unlawful rogue state, I hereby demand you return to the soveriegnty of Her Majesty the Queen. We shall then finish giving the French the kicking they truly deserve as they assisted you.

Non-seq. But thanks for giving it a try.

Let's try to stay focused here. You derided those who called the US actions during Vietnam War Crimes.

Untrue, please cite.

Find below the entirety of my posts to this thread to make it easier for you, if anything I have praised people for taking a stance opposite to mine. I suspect I have reached the stage where rather than actually reading my posts some folks are just assuming I have a contrary stance.

quote:

A typically piece of word play.

Hate to piss on the bonfire so to speak, but not supporting something does not necessarily make someone against it. After all it seems apathy is as prevelant there as here, ie the majority (largest single group) just couldnt really give a damn unless it affects them personally.

quote:


An interesting and noble stance Julia. I would be tempted however to argue that the government of the US should worry more about how US citizens want to live, than the citizens of another land. Unfortunately that means that should US citizens wish to lash out after an attack, or continue the supremacy of the dollar in the world oil market then that must be that governments priority. Kudos to you for standing tall and saying it is not what you want. 

quote:

 
The United States of America was once a an unlawful rogue state, I hereby demand you return to the soveriegnty of Her Majesty the Queen. We shall then finish giving the French the kicking they truly deserve as they assisted you.




Minor gramatical edit

< Message edited by sleazy -- 2/1/2007 10:07:38 AM >


_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 10:17:36 AM   
MissBabydoll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

This has shit to do with the actual Vietnam war or war protesters in general and I dont like how it seems this thread is trying to deflect towards that. It has to do with one very fucked up individual who put her head so far up her ass that she has to see though her neck.

Peace my ass, I dont give two fucks about the politics of today (i'm a libertarian, like hell we'll ever get what we want), or about the war i'll be leaving to fight, or the war decades ago that wasent even my generation, I do give two shits about my uncle Johnny and My theo Carlos, I care about what they feel, what theyve been through, and I trust thier word over this wrinkled old cunt.

If they say the only things fitting her where Uncle Johnny's dick in her ass and Uncle Carlos's .45 through her mouth for what she did to them and thier old buddies, then I'll take thier word for it.


I wish they woudn't let Fonda up on the podium either, because she's a 'tard. I wasn't even born when the Vietnam war ended, but it's obvious to me that the North Vietnamese regime were Soviet-backed Stalinists and the South Vietnamese regime were corrupt American-financed thugs. On the whole, from what I can see, the Nothern regime was preferable to the Southern one because it actually provided health care and education to its citizens, even though they tortured US prisoners. (It's worth trying to put yourself in the shoes of people in a poor country who are being carpet-bombed by huge American planes for trying to take the other half of their country back when UN-mandated elections were not held by a US-backed disctatorship...) Well, the US and the South Vietnamese tortured Vietcong and North Vietnamese prisoners--or just killed them. From what I've read, the entire war was barbaric beyond belief. But then, war generally is.

Fonda, who is a pretty dim bulb anyway, fell into a trap it seems a whole section of the antiwar movement and the New Left fell into at that time--idealizing Stalinist "national liberation" parties in developing countries, as well as monstrosities like the so-called Cultural Revolution in China, which was a disguised power grab by Mao Zedong and led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Well, that was then. Nobody I know in the anti-war movement thinks like that any more, though Berkeley where I went to school still has its diehard leftist sectarian bizarros amid the oblivious crowds of Asian-American science and engineering students.

I wish Fonda would go back to one of her mansions and shut the fuck up. We don't need her. I loathe celebrity spokespeople for popular movements anyway. But calling her "Jihad Jane" is just a cheap shot. She has said nothing in favor of the jihadis, unlike what she said about the regime in North Vietnam. Nor, as far as I know, has anyone in the movement against the Iraq war in the US except a microscopic fringe of wacko "anti-imperialists" (see above) and Islamist wannabes. Even though she got too cosy with Hugo Chavez (who scares me not because he's socialistic but because he has too much power), Cindy Sheehan is much more admirable to me because she's an ordinary woman without money or power who spoke out against evil.

But now to your last paragraph. To paraphrase, it seems you're saying that if your two Vietnam vet relatives found it appropriate, you would applaud them anally raping this "wrinkled old cunt" and then shooting her dead by putting a pistol in her mouth. This, mind you, not for torturing or killing anyone or causing those things to happen, but for expressing opinions you and they disagree with during a war already deeply unpopular with the American people. Your revenge fantasy is not merely disgusting and  misogynistic in the extreme but expresses a deep personal rage against women, especially older ones. I fear for any female who is unlucky enough to be intimate with you if she happens to make you angry.



(in reply to Rumtiger)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 12:21:24 PM   
Rumtiger


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From: Vegas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissBabydoll

But now to your last paragraph. To paraphrase, it seems you're saying that if your two Vietnam vet relatives found it appropriate, you would applaud them anally raping this "wrinkled old cunt" and then shooting her dead by putting a pistol in her mouth. This, mind you, not for torturing or killing anyone or causing those things to happen, but for expressing opinions you and they disagree with during a war already deeply unpopular with the American people. Your revenge fantasy is not merely disgusting and  misogynistic in the extreme but expresses a deep personal rage against women, especially older ones. I fear for any female who is unlucky enough to be intimate with you if she happens to make you angry.



So, you know me now, well lets get personal then.

I can surmize from your post  (just as your attempting to do with mine) that you are a self centered and self indulgent woman who is completly detached and ignorant from what could be considered the male psyche.You are self assured in your supposed ability to judge people from a far enough distance that seems safe to you and deem them as inferior to aquaint yourself with, you do this with everyone, which results in a lonley life save for the very few companions who are emotionally masochistic enough to stay close to you.

Is that an accurate description?

No?

Well guess what, niether is yours.

Being raised by all women (particularly my two grandmothers and my numerous upon numerous aunts) who I love with all my heart, would be enough to refute your accusations, but the fact my mistress is also older then me assists as well. Anybody who has actually looked at a few of my posts (not to mention who have really met me) know that I am loyal to the numerous women in my life (by which I mean family, friends ect.) to a severe fault.

Where is my misoginy now?...my Rage against older women?....

My rage is towards stupid people. And for someone who in most of her post makes it clear of her feelings for Barbarella's intelligence, you sure put your ass in your mouth with that little attempted analysis now dident'cha?

I never said I was in support of the Vietnam war, I personally think it is a FUBAR situation that never should have been started. I also share the same feelings about Iraq, so dont think about attempting to label me as a supporter there.

And yes Fargle...I think Diem was a dipshit. But I still dont care, nor did I post in this thread to discuss that.

As for you babydoll, you take the words of two old soldiers and try to twist it around just so you can make yourself feel better then someone else by making them, and me, look like raging, raping, killers.

I wasent there, you werent there, but they where. If they feel such outrage such as this then who the hell are we to say it is unjustified?

By the way, if your a therapist of any kind as your day job, quit today.

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to MissBabydoll)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 12:40:29 PM   
thompsonx


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I never said I was in support of the Vietnam war, I personally think it is a FUBAR situation that never should have been started. I also share the same feelings about Iraq, so dont think about attempting to label me as a supporter there.



Rumtiger:
I thought you mentioned earlier that you were about to join the military.  If you do not support the current war in Iraq why are you joining?
thompson

(in reply to Rumtiger)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 12:41:31 PM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline
I already answered that question

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 1:16:13 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

I already answered that question

Just because your such a big fan of clarification, lemme clarify it just a bit more. I'm joining because I want something better for my future, whether that be to gain new experience or skills or get a degree or two through the military depending on my job. I'm doing this because I want to do it, my motivations are just that: MINE.



Rumtiger:
In my quest for clarity this was all I could find concerning your motivation for joining the military.
You seem to be saying that you are willing to involve yourself in a war you do not agree with so you can get money to go to college.  If this is a mischaracterization of your motives please disabuse me of this notion.
thompson

(in reply to Rumtiger)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 1:27:21 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

WyrdRich:
Really ten milliion illegal aliens marched in Los Angeles...It would appear that you only open your mouth to change feet.
thompson



     The numbers I saw for the recent anti-war rally in DC were guesstimated at 40-50 thousand (they claim more of course).  The Mayday event in LA last year was estimated at 400-500 thousand (I think they were claiming a million).  I said 10 times as many.  Where did you get 10 million?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 1:34:58 PM   
Rumtiger


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From: Vegas
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war is irrelevant, my motives for joining would be the same, conflict or not.

And you are not trying to clarify anything, only attempting to degrade me so you can get your jollies off, your not bullshitting me.

this is my path to take, whichever way it leads is fine by me, do not attempt to simplify it to something like 'college money recruit".

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 1:44:25 PM   
WyrdRich


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Status: offline
      Thanks for your reply, Babydoll.  I just wanted to clarify that I used several question marks with the name 'Jihad Jane.'  I haven't heard any of the protesters singing the praises of the Islamic Crazy People and I actually have a certain amount of respect for organizations like "Code Pink," that seem to oppose war, without any political agenda.  The thread title was just a bit of fun-loving speculation based on the nickname Ms Fonda received last time around.

(in reply to MissBabydoll)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 2:10:37 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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Did we get cross posted? I wonder who I was replying to?

( After reviewing the video tape, I was replying to an post of Rumtiger's you were responding to apparently )





< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/1/2007 2:14:33 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 2:16:02 PM   
WyrdRich


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Joined: 1/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Did we get cross posted? I wonder who I was replying to?







   It's that darn short-term memory loss again, isn't it?  Silly Hippie, hemp is for fuel...

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 2:17:38 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:



And yes Fargle...I think Diem was a dipshit. But I still dont care, nor did I post in this thread to discuss that.


You insinuated that Jane Fonda was morally wrong for going to Vietnam. Before you can make that judgement, you must honestly ask, "Was the US WRONG?".

Since the US was wrong, there was nothing morally wrong with Fonda's actions. You might not agree with them, and if you refuse to accept that the US was wrong, you'll naturally disagree. But the case is very strong, isn't it?

If Hussein was tossed out for not complying with UN mandates, why wasn't Diem?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Rumtiger)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 2:43:43 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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Rumtiger makes sense. His opponents are wrong and lose.
 
W. has sense of humor.

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 2:45:03 PM   
Rumtiger


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Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
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Your thinking my problem is with policy, it isent, its about what she an individual did in regard to American personell, my beef is about certian people, not countries. Its a bit smaller in scope then what you want to talk about.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about politics of Vietnam with you, forget it, you got plenty other people who will indulge you.

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 3:44:16 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

WyrdRich:
Really ten milliion illegal aliens marched in Los Angeles...It would appear that you only open your mouth to change feet.
thompson



    The numbers I saw for the recent anti-war rally in DC were guesstimated at 40-50 thousand (they claim more of course).  The Mayday event in LA last year was estimated at 400-500 thousand (I think they were claiming a million).  I said 10 times as many.  Where did you get 10 million?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachron


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

  Hehehehehe....  The anti-war movement just proved they can get even more marginal.


... and I would characterize that statement as a tactical attempt to marginalize quite a few millions of people without bothering to engage any of the reasoning behind their position.

JT





    Millions???   We can get 10 times as many illegals to a local rally in Los Angeles than the anti-war bunch can to a national protest in DC.

   And most of the blue-collar Democrats I know hate Fonda even more than they hate Bush.

    (just saw that you are in LA...  Remember the day without traffic jams, oops, I mean "The Day Without An Immigrant?")

< Message edited by WyrdRich -- 1/31/2007 4:15:35 PM >

_____________________________

A Heretic as usual
Rich


WyrdRich:
This is where I got the number ten million...I can see now that you were refering to information not stated. 
thompson

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Jihad Jane??? - 2/1/2007 3:53:32 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

war is irrelevant, my motives for joining would be the same, conflict or not.

And you are not trying to clarify anything, only attempting to degrade me so you can get your jollies off, your not bullshitting me.

this is my path to take, whichever way it leads is fine by me, do not attempt to simplify it to something like 'college money recruit".


Rumtiger:
It would appear that you have now become a mind reader and know what I am thinking...which is something you have charged others of doing to you.  I have only asked you to clarify your position...if clarifying your position is degrading to you then how would that be something I could do,  Your thoughts, your definitions, your life.  I have not tried to simplify anything I have only asked you to tell me what your position is.  If you are uncomfortable in articulating that then perhaps we should discuss something else.
thompson

(in reply to Rumtiger)
Profile   Post #: 60
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