quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

If anything I must say I find you amusing. Oh and when you put up the research to back up all you are saying, concerning bras that is, I'll be back.

Untill then,

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay
Considering how many bras you and others like you buy in the course of a year or so I am sure you can afford to buy custom made bras. Financial distribution is a matter of choice. If you really want custom made bras you'd learn to go without certain other things you don't necessarily need as badly. The crux of most women who claim their breasts cause them pain is simply because over 80% of them, at last check, wear the wrong size and wear bras that don't really fit them well.

What...two in a good year? I don't buy many peices of clothing. Nor do I buy many under garments. I'd much rather eat.

Yeah, I know I wear the wrong size. I haven't yet gotten to a fitting. According to the forumula you're su[pposed to use, I wear a size they don't make. I'm content with a size I can find.

quote:

I am sure that if you have complaints now about with G-cups, that you'd develop the same complaints if you had DDs. Had you been closer to A and B at first then the complaint would be wondering about what bigger would be like.

Johnathan Kay

Yup :) But based on what I find in stores, B and C can find bras. My friends with A's have the same problem I do. Lack of supply.

I know nothing about studies. I know about how I feel.

I am physically more comfortble in a bra than I am in a camesol/undershirt or without anything. I can pretty much say this -isn't- conditioning, because before I wore a C cup I was ok without a bra. Once I hit a C though, my body felt physically more content when my breasts were supported and held to my body. I have yet to find a garement that isn't a bra that does it as well as a bra does.

So, study or no study, at least one person is physically better off in a bra.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

quote:

So, whoever told you they wrote the original document would be incorrect unless they wrote their own version of the rules set. It is likely what you looked at is only the rules - because currently the document is much larger than just the rules. It contains a number of sections.

The person who claimed he wrote the rules has replied to this thread bashing his own contract many times. He has also sent the contract to many boasting it was his.

I have little to no doubt the contract has been plagiarised many times over. Because you also took credit for them in 2004, if I'm not mistaken by following your link's that is the earliest where I actually see the contract. I'm not convinced you are the author either. I've seen a typical contract like this many times over, through out the years.
Only on the internet I must say. Never seen real people use these contracts yet.

Frankly I need more evidence before I will be swayed. I'm not like most. I don't read something insufficiently and blindly assume it is real.

I also have issues about your breast analogy, although I've not looked it up as of yet so I won't go into that.

Aside from that...do you know a dom named Devon who hangs out at the wetspot? He goes by the name SteelWhip online?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

The person who claimed he wrote the rules has replied to this thread bashing his own contract many times. He has also sent the contract to many boasting it was his.

You know what, I've ignored this thread for some time, but now that it's bothered beth it's time to address some issues. On page one post #8 I based these rules. Why? Because I wanted to join the list of people who said they were impossible to live with in real life. I wanted to see how far it would get. Then as someone who knew us pointed out, these weren't exactly our rules, but one of the foundation documents that were used in creating our rules. The person pointing that out to us was one who asked us to share our rules with them, who we've been with in person, and knows us. All aspects of the rules may not be original but in the form they exist, they are unique.

For the record, when these rules were created, I used the 128 Rules and a few others as guides and for the foundation of discussion. At the time beth was not living with me full time so some aspects, like the webcam, were included. As we've counseled many to do, we communicated for many hours and went over each rule long before they became "our rules". Then a ritual was added as part of the document. Finally, at the end of the process the rules that we live by came into being. I printed them on quality paper with beth and my pictures in the background. They sit, signed and framed, on the night stand next to beth's side of the bed. This was over two and one half years ago. I wish I kept all the "plagiarized" source, but I seem to recall they were at sites where the author suggested they could be used as models for a couple contemplating a full time 24/7 relationship. If I owe any money for copy right infringement - send me the bill.

Now if some sanctimonious, self important, pompous, individual can't believe that anyone can, would, or is living by those rules that's their problem. They probably don't believe you can piss with a hard on without excruciating pain even though they don't have a penis. I've never seen Everest, the biggest thing on the planet, but I trust it exists. For anyone who needs to be a modern day Thomas and to put his fingers in the holes made by the wounds you're welcome to come to Palos Verdes for you own personal verification.

Meanwhile, I exist, beth exists, we exist as a 24/7 lifestyle couple under these rules. Debate their merit, their real life application, or the fanatic anal retentive mind it would take to monitor and enforce all you like. It's unfortunate that some people have seen but still choose not to believe. Although we share everything about our lives with others we don't share each other. To beth and I the lifestyle IS a 24/7 intimate, sexual, and erotic way of life. Sharing a spanking or a scene with another would be, to us, the equivalent of sex. Yes I have allowed beth to be the subject of a demonstration or even encounter a new sensation in my presence, such as the waxing by Taggard in Vegas, but those encounters were not a scene. They are sensations, not the sensational.

I guess some don't believe we are as we represent. To me, that means they are either jealous, or because they haven't achieved a sense of completeness need to challenge it when others claim they have it. Whatever. Challenge the words, debate the proper amount of urine intake possible. beth's worn a bra maybe a dozen times in the 3 years we've been together and any sag is un-noticeable. she is naked very quickly when we come home, but on chilly nights she is permitted a bathrobe.

My god, the need to justify or explain our relationship really pisses me off, especially when the majority of sources are on-line "grand-master" types whose only authority is over which hand they'll use masturbating while on-line. But worse are the submissives who document and dictate exactly what their "masters" are allowed to do to them, and who if the intensity it too much, "safe word". I pity them most, they'll never know what's beyond the safe word. I guess the thought of living under rules and to totally trust someone else for everything is so contrary to how they live they can not perceive that type of existence. I feel sorry for them in that regard too.

If anyone has any questions, ask me or beth. If anyone has any doubt, come see us or get over it - that's your issue and problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Remember my big post feline? the clueless will remain so.....that sword cuts both ways.

Kiss to you and yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay
Buy at least one bra that fits you - one where you were measured for it. The cost isn't going to kill your budget. If after you wear it you find you like it more than any other bra - I think you'll find a way to buy more of them even if it means you have to give up completely certain habits or certain activities.

JK

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay

What I was saying is that a bra will not stop, slow down or eliminate breasts from sagging. Breasts will eventually drop. But if you wear a bra often like 12 hours a day or more - the breasts will drop further then if you wore your bra less hours a day or not at all. For girls with large breasts - when they wear bras their breasts don't get any kind of exercise - so their connective tissues get sudden drops when you take your bra off causing the connective tissues to overstretch. If these girls wore bras less or not at all then this connective tissue would not stretch so much.

JK

Are you saying that this 'connective tissue' stretches less when it's subjected to gravity more? Where is this tissue? Is it just the skin of the breast you're referring to? Skin doesn't operate the way a muscle does. The more you stretch skin, the more stretched out it becomes, given time. Wearing a bra significantly reduces the amount of stretching on breast skin, in my opinion (a big-breasted woman who almost always wears bras and doesn't have droopy ones).

Or am I mistaken in what you're saying?

~ Elektra

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay

quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub

quote:

What I was saying is that a bra will not stop, slow down or eliminate breasts from sagging. Breasts will eventually drop. But if you wear a bra often like 12 hours a day or more - the breasts will drop further then if you wore your bra less hours a day or not at all. For girls with large breasts - when they wear bras their breasts don't get any kind of exercise - so their connective tissues get sudden drops when you take your bra off causing the connective tissues to overstretch. If these girls wore bras less or not at all then this connective tissue would not stretch so much.

Is this a ploy to get us all to go braless? I guess it makes some sense.

It's just an FYI. If it causes women to consider wearing their bras less or not at all then they would be doing themselves a favor.

JK

I would appreciate it if you would cite your sources for this. Based on personal experience, it is innacurate, so I would be interested in seeing what methods were used for determining your assertations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay
Buy at least one bra that fits you - one where you were measured for it. The cost isn't going to kill your budget. If after you wear it you find you like it more than any other bra - I think you'll find a way to buy more of them even if it means you have to give up completely certain habits or certain activities.

JK

I didn't say what I meant clearly. It isn't that the cost is, itself, too much overall--in the scheme of the money I have/get/earn. Rather, it's more than I can afford to pay in a sitting without some significant savings. That is, while and 80 or 100$bra isn't too expensive in terms of a month's pay, it -is- a lot in terms of the avilable money I have per month. I'd have to save, and forgo any other "fun" stuff for several months to afford it. Honestly, I'd rather use my money for something else. I'm content with bras that don't hurt me. I've found a size that fits comfortably enough, though it takes some shopping around.

I know I have the choice of what buisnesses to support. I also know that the way my paychecks work, it is simplier for me to own several inexpensive bras rather than save for months and end up with one bra. The majority of my clothing comes from thrift stores or is handmade, even $20 for a bra is...well...either four days food or four or five peices of clothing.

This is a personal choice. :) I don't complain about how my bras feel. I complain about being unable to find the size that I choose to wear.


I really like the site that you linked to, because it provides actual, scientific references for the assertations it makes.

I think, however, that the issue should come down to personal comfort, not what someone else dictates. I think that if I -stop- wearing a bra because someone says I should I'm buying in just as much as if I -wear- a bra because society pressures me to. I think the important part is to do what's comfortable to you and to not try to convince other what feels good doesn't.

I feel more comfortable in a bra. To tell me "no, you really don't. You just don't realize it" denies me the level of personal understanding which I have, and basically assumes that I haven't expermented with what feels good. I think that for someone to tell someone else that their own, personal expeirneces and physical perceptions are "wrong" isn't really wise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay
Buy at least one bra that fits you - one where you were measured for it. The cost isn't going to kill your budget. If after you wear it you find you like it more than any other bra - I think you'll find a way to buy more of them even if it means you have to give up completely certain habits or certain activities.

JK

I didn't say what I meant clearly. It isn't that the cost is, itself, too much overall--in the scheme of the money I have/get/earn. Rather, it's more than I can afford to pay in a sitting without some significant savings. That is, while and 80 or 100$bra isn't too expensive in terms of a month's pay, it -is- a lot in terms of the avilable money I have per month. I'd have to save, and forgo any other "fun" stuff for several months to afford it. Honestly, I'd rather use my money for something else. I'm content with bras that don't hurt me. I've found a size that fits comfortably enough, though it takes some shopping around.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

I find that when I have gone without a bra for long periods of time, my breasts hang far lower on my body than they do when I am out of a bra after having primarially been wearing one. That is, when I wear a bra most of the time, my breasts "sag" less than when I've gone without one for a long time. (Now that it's warm again, my partner prefers me clothes-less when possible.) Yes, it's a noticable difference.

quote:


Also,problem is, my body is physically uncomfortable without a bra. It's not social discomfort, it's actual, phsyical discomfort.

quote:


Maybe I've somehow lucked out with bras, but when I'm wearing one, I find that the weight seems...well...better distributed. When I don't wear a bra, my breasts ache, and my back aches.

quote:


When I wear one, I will occationally feel pressure on the straps, but the pressure is generalized and not painful.

quote:


So you would say that it is perfectly ok for someone to endanger their own life, remain irresponsible, and that people who have some decent information about what others do should not tell others that they may be in danger? Is that what you are suggesting? That people, as individuals, should operate in the world as if no one else exists, there is nothing to be read, and no reason to do anything unless each person specifically chooses to go the routes they take on their own without any education or guidance whatsoever to consider. Are you serious?

quote:


So in a nutshell your breast health isn't all that important to you as these other activities are. You just said yourself that payment for good fitting bras isn't that expensive for you. So you have to save a little, stop some activities or not do them as much. Life can't be that hard or you'd find a way to make it work better for you.

quote:


Would working out help?

quote:


The aching tho takes time doesn't it to happen? And maybe you just need to move differently too. Maybe ask those who don't wear a bra how they deal with not wearing one.

quote:


That pressure tho is because you are wearing the wrong size. Right fitting bras may not be the most glamourous, but then glamour doesn't mean much if it can't be seen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

I find that when I have gone without a bra for long periods of time, my breasts hang far lower on my body than they do when I am out of a bra after having primarially been wearing one. That is, when I wear a bra most of the time, my breasts "sag" less than when I've gone without one for a long time. (Now that it's warm again, my partner prefers me clothes-less when possible.) Yes, it's a noticable difference.

...

Also,problem is, my body is physically uncomfortable without a bra. It's not social discomfort, it's actual, phsyical discomfort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

quote:


So you would say that it is perfectly ok for someone to endanger their own life, remain irresponsible, and that people who have some decent information about what others do should not tell others that they may be in danger? Is that what you are suggesting? That people, as individuals, should operate in the world as if no one else exists, there is nothing to be read, and no reason to do anything unless each person specifically chooses to go the routes they take on their own without any education or guidance whatsoever to consider. Are you serious?

quote:


Where'd you come up with that one?

You indicated in one of your responses that a person ought not tell others about things that could or are a danger to their lives, that people should make their own choices without anyone telling them - like society telling them - what they ought to, should, or consider doing.

quote:


You educated us. Now let us do with the information as we see fit.

As would be expected.

quote:


Yes, I think it is an individuals choice to "endanger their own lives" Heck, I particpate in s&m.

And even in S&M you would follow certain sets of rules if you play in a venue or club or you'd be warned or kicked out. Even in S&M, unless it is strictly private play or a poorly run club you can play how you wish despite the risks you take whether you know them or not or fumble into making mistakes. Thankfully, they will not be fatal mistakes or ones that cause serious harm. Even in your own play you have boundaries. You do have to consider various issues the your player has and respect the limits they have whether you want to or not. Yes, you can endanger your life - but you have to expect that someone is going to say something to you and in some venues you will have no choice but to do what that person tells you that you must do or must stop doing.

No one lives, as much as they wish they did, in a vacuum.

quote:


So in a nutshell your breast health isn't all that important to you as these other activities are. You just said yourself that payment for good fitting bras isn't that expensive for you. So you have to save a little, stop some activities or not do them as much. Life can't be that hard or you'd find a way to make it work better for you.

quote:


If it works for you to think of it that way, more power to you.

Yes, it is more important to be able to buy a new pair of shoes on occation than it is to have a bra that may or may not fit any better than the one I have. As I said before, my bras are comfortable. They are simply hard to find. While I said I am probably wearing the wrong size according to the forumla, I'm also wearing something that is comfortable and doesn't cut into my breasts nor make my body hurt in any way. (well, except when someone snaps it. yeah, they still do that)

I'm a hedonist in that I prefer certain types of immediate happyness to the possibility of future risk. If I develop breast cancer, you're welcome to say "I told you so." For now, I'm going to be young and irresponsible and pretend that I cannot get sick.

You are, like many your age range, are in the invincible stage of your life. Us older folks extend what we can to younger folks in hopes they make safer decisions and get their priorities right and now and them we drive it into them so they get the message. When we hear a person say they can't be concerned or don't want to be it raises a red flag and most of the time, like this time, we have to let it continue to rise. Yes, you have to make your decision. Usually, later in life it becomes more important to make those decisions that are better for you. But that takes time to realize.

quote:


Would working out help?

[qoute]
I work out at least four days a week.

quote:

with 8000 members and counting it can be hard to keep track. I don't always go the Wetspot, but when I am there I do meet a few new people and with friends of mine there. I'll ask about the guy when I go again. I am likely to be there tonight 6-11 sat night.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay
That helps others to see the original documents along with yours to then create their own document/contract. Should you both get up to Seattle sometime - let me know. Would like to meet you.

Johnathan Kay (aka, JK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnathanKay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

The person who claimed he wrote the rules has replied to this thread bashing his own contract many times. He has also sent the contract to many boasting it was his.

You know what, I've ignored this thread for some time, but now that it's bothered beth it's time to address some issues. On page one post #8 I based these rules. Why? Because I wanted to join the list of people who said they were impossible to live with in real life. I wanted to see how far it would get. Then as someone who knew us pointed out, these weren't exactly our rules, but one of the foundation documents that were used in creating our rules. The person pointing that out to us was one who asked us to share our rules with them, who we've been with in person, and knows us. All aspects of the rules may not be original but in the form they exist, they are unique.

For the record, when these rules were created, I used the 128 Rules and a few others as guides and for the foundation of discussion. At the time beth was not living with me full time so some aspects, like the webcam, were included. As we've counseled many to do, we communicated for many hours and went over each rule long before they became "our rules". Then a ritual was added as part of the document. Finally, at the end of the process the rules that we live by came into being. I printed them on quality paper with beth and my pictures in the background. They sit, signed and framed, on the night stand next to beth's side of the bed. This was over two and one half years ago. I wish I kept all the "plagiarized" source, but I seem to recall they were at sites where the author suggested they could be used as models for a couple contemplating a full time 24/7 relationship. If I owe any money for copy right infringement - send me the bill.

Now if some sanctimonious, self important, pompous, individual can't believe that anyone can, would, or is living by those rules that's their problem. They probably don't believe you can piss with a hard on without excruciating pain even though they don't have a penis. I've never seen Everest, the biggest thing on the planet, but I trust it exists. For anyone who needs to be a modern day Thomas and to put his fingers in the holes made by the wounds you're welcome to come to Palos Verdes for you own personal verification.

Meanwhile, I exist, beth exists, we exist as a 24/7 lifestyle couple under these rules. Debate their merit, their real life application, or the fanatic anal retentive mind it would take to monitor and enforce all you like. It's unfortunate that some people have seen but still choose not to believe. Although we share everything about our lives with others we don't share each other. To beth and I the lifestyle IS a 24/7 intimate, sexual, and erotic way of life. Sharing a spanking or a scene with another would be, to us, the equivalent of sex. Yes I have allowed beth to be the subject of a demonstration or even encounter a new sensation in my presence, such as the waxing by Taggard in Vegas, but those encounters were not a scene. They are sensations, not the sensational.

I guess some don't believe we are as we represent. To me, that means they are either jealous, or because they haven't achieved a sense of completeness need to challenge it when others claim they have it. Whatever. Challenge the words, debate the proper amount of urine intake possible. beth's worn a bra maybe a dozen times in the 3 years we've been together and any sag is un-noticeable. she is naked very quickly when we come home, but on chilly nights she is permitted a bathrobe.

My god, the need to justify or explain our relationship really pisses me off, especially when the majority of sources are on-line "grand-master" types whose only authority is over which hand they'll use masturbating while on-line. But worse are the submissives who document and dictate exactly what their "masters" are allowed to do to them, and who if the intensity it too much, "safe word". I pity them most, they'll never know what's beyond the safe word. I guess the thought of living under rules and to totally trust someone else for everything is so contrary to how they live they can not perceive that type of existence. I feel sorry for them in that regard too.

If anyone has any questions, ask me or beth. If anyone has any doubt, come see us or get over it - that's your issue and problem.

Thank you to you both for making this clarification. This is what I thought had happened - that you used my 128 Basic slave Rules docuement along with other writings of other authors to them make your own list of rules upon which to govern your lives by in addition to what you both have developed. And thank you for clarifying that your life can be experienced with such a set of rules as you both have worked on creating, that you can live your life with all the work it takes to make it work for you both. Appreciated. No bills to be sent, no monies to be declared. I only ask if you distribute your own list of rules to carry then the credits to those documents you did use on the list you have. That helps others to see the original documents along with yours to then create their own document/contract. Should you both get up to Seattle sometime - let me know. Would like to meet you.

Johnathan Kay (aka, JK)

quote:

128 Basic slave Rules docuement

quote:

These rules as presented are meant as guidelines, a beginning point from which develop one's own set, specific to a particular relationship