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RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 3:50:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

Dan Savage
That said, SOTS, I'm not gonna give you a pass. You're not done with sex, he's not dying, you don't have kids—cheating under your particular circumstances can't be justified. Regardless of what happens with your coworker, SOTS, you need to end this relationship. You're not all that attracted to your boyfriend emotionally or physically, and you don't have the kind of entanglements—biological or durational—to rationalize having a fuck buddy. You need to do the right thing, SOTS, and break up with this guy.

So he's not giving a pass to the guy...In fact he sates "You need to do the "right thing" and break up with this guy."

The way cloudboys original statement began is "how does he get his bdsm groove on with a partner who presumably doesn't swing that way?"....Paraphrasing.

Does this meet the requirements as Dan Savage provided and on which clouboy is looking to be absolved under?
It seems that Dan Savage has a bit of CIAW within himself.

Wow... I completely missed that too. Glad you picked up on it.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 3:58:35 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

Dan Savage
That said, SOTS, I'm not gonna give you a pass. You're not done with sex, he's not dying, you don't have kids—cheating under your particular circumstances can't be justified. Regardless of what happens with your coworker, SOTS, you need to end this relationship. You're not all that attracted to your boyfriend emotionally or physically, and you don't have the kind of entanglements—biological or durational—to rationalize having a fuck buddy. You need to do the right thing, SOTS, and break up with this guy.

So he's not giving a pass to the guy...In fact he sates "You need to do the "right thing" and break up with this guy."

The way cloudboys original statement began is "how does he get his bdsm groove on with a partner who presumably doesn't swing that way?"....Paraphrasing.

Does this meet the requirements as Dan Savage provided and on which clouboy is looking to be absolved under?
It seems that Dan Savage has a bit of CIAW within himself.

Wow... I completely missed that too. Glad you picked up on it.

Really?....... Perhaps cheating under *other* circumstances might be justifiable, though. In your quote he stated...*under your particular circumstances*.

agirl

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 4:00:32 PM

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domiguy: I read the entire article or question Savage answered, and my response is that I simply do not (or try not to) judge what other people do (unless they ask me to do whatever it is). If someone asks me to do something I find personally intolerable, I say no, and sometimes, not without some angst. That is honestly about as far as I ever really take things. Now I understand this is a message board, and the perfect opportunity for people to profess what kind of person they are. I get that, in fact I'm doing it now. I understand it, it's alright with me, and I am not in the CIAW camp. Overall, I prefer an honest partner, and like to think I'd try to be one. However, I can envision circumstances where this doesn't always work to everyone's satisfaction. It's okay, IMO, if some folks don't feel this way.

That's probably because I've had a situation where I was tempted to cheat, and did it (although I am not real sure it was cheating since I announced I was going to do it many times before it actually occurred, and he was fully aware of that, and did not much to improve the situation. But even if some think it was, it's a personal choice).

I can't I say I was altogether unhappy that I still had a roof over my head and food in my mouth, and that I didn't have to tangle with lawyers, and alienation from family. I stayed. I could have left, as I was very gainfully employed when the communication breakdown (or apathy, call it what you will) started to happen.

We more or less had developed one of those aforementioned "silent agreements", in many ways. I didn't want to risk complete disconnection with my immediate family, and for a long time, a big part of me actually did think divorce was wrong. Not to mention, my husband didn't want one. The decision worked - for me. I still don't know if it was the perfect decision (is there such a thing?) I did work on the relationship, and for a long time, and I did hold out some hope the situation was going to change, and also on some other levels the situation worked for me, and for both of us, actually. To me this stuff just isn't black and white, and people should do what they can live with. I have no doubt that my personal experiences, background, parents, siblings, other relatives, teachers, friends, books, and my basic personality, etc. have colored my POV.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/13/2007 4:29:58 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 4:03:38 PM

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Doh!

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/13/2007 4:34:57 PM >

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(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 4:22:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Really?....... Perhaps cheating under *other* circumstances might be justifiable, though. In your quote he stated...*under your particular circumstances*.

agirl

Yep. if you read the article he gives some instances where he thinks it is ok.

quote:

SusnaofO
domiguy: I reead the entire article or question Savage answered, and my response is that I simply do not really judge what other people do (unless they ask me to do whatever it is). If some asks me to do something I find personally intolerable I say no. That is honestly about as far as I ever really take things. Now I understand this is a message board, and the perfect opportunity for people to profess what kind of person the are, etc. I get that. I understand it, and I am not in the CIAW camp.

That's probably because I've had a situation where I was tempted to cheat, and did it (although I am not real sure it was cheating since I announced I was going to it many times before it actually occurred. But even if some think it was, it's a personal choice. I can't I say I was altogether unhappy that I still had a roof over my head and food in my mouth. I stayed. We more or less had developed one of those aforementioned "silent agreements", in many ways.I didn't want to risk complete disconnection with my immediate family, and for a long time, a big part of me actually did think divorce was wrong. I did work on the relationship, and for a long time, and I did hold out some hope the situation was going to change, and also on some other levels the situation worked for me, for both of us, actuallly. To me this stuff just isn't always black and white, and people should do what they can live with.

- Susan

I quite frankly don't care why you do anything. The only thing I was hoping was that you would read the conclusion by "the Professional" that you chose to garnish your statistics Post#332...You don't seem to have the capacity to carry on an argument.

Last time. Hopefully it will sink in!....The reason people cheat, according to the source that "You" brought to the forum, is because they simply don't give a big enough "shit" to make it work....Again Paraphrasing!

So you should read it..Try and let it sink in...Then disgard it and continue your mindless rant.

No one seeems to be able, as you so eloquently put it "to wrap their minds around this thought"

The majority, not all, of people who are in a decaying relationship, whether cheating is involved or not, have only to go look in the mirror to find a great part of the reason.

Is that so hard to understand?...You blather on and on...Read the article! You are the one that posted it...Oh, by the way ...Good research to invalidate your point.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/13/2007 4:49:11 PM >

(in reply to agirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 4:35:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Really?....... Perhaps cheating under *other* circumstances might be justifiable, though. In your quote he stated...*under your particular circumstances*.

agirl

If you know what situations cheating is ok in, can you answer the question why is it ok to remove the right to informed consent for sexual activity?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to agirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 5:03:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

And as for the dieting analogy, what you said might be harsh but it's true, so I don't have a problem with it.I do not lie about my faults...I am weak when it comes to food. I do not try to justify that.

It's sounding more and more like you have very little tolerance for those who aren't as moral and strong as you. i prefer to look at them and say they are at a certain development in their life based on more things then i will ever be aware of - unless i know them really, really well - and even then i won't know a heck of a lot.

How many people are you honest with about your involvement in D/s, bdsm, etc - a person such as yourself who values honesty as much as you do must be willing to live it openly. i ask it - you obviously don't have to answer it is a rather personal question, and somehow i doubt i am getting an answer to it at any rate

Sure I will answer. I answered it on another thread actually when the subject of "how open are you about d/s" came up. I am very open about it. My coworkers know (and have even started calling me "the sexpert". They come to me anytime they have a question about kinky sex.) I get at least two phone calls a night from coworkers asking me sex questions. It also helps that there are several other bdsmers on my shift, as well as several swingers and poly folks (I think someone else mentioned somewhere that law enforcement seems to have a high number of kinksters).

I am open about many controversial things including my pagan religion, my bdsm activities, my child-free status, my support of gay rights, etc all of which are hot buttons in the area I live in. My friends and family know as well. I see no reason to be ashamed of it.

You have to understand that I am a very open person. I do not mince words or tell people what they want to hear. I work with 120 other people and I think almost all of them know I'm a BDSMer...I've just never felt the need to hide it. They call me "our resident kink freak" and "our resident weirdo".

I'm this way about everything. When I was having medical problems with my bladder, I talked about it openly. When I had my tubes tied, I told everyone I knew. I just don't keep secrets well. Anyone who has ever met me knows my whole life story because I'm not very good at shutting up :P

And although I am arguing with you velvetears, I do not mean it as any sort of a personal attack and do not mind answering any questions you ask me.

And yes, I have been told I am very intolerant to those of a different belief structure than my own. Perhaps I may grow out of it in time, perhaps not.

< Message edited by GeekyGirl -- 3/13/2007 5:05:47 PM >

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 5:16:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl
Sure I will answer. I answered it on another thread actually when the subject of "how open are you about d/s" came up. I am very open about it. My coworkers know (and have even started calling me "the sexpert". They come to me anytime they have a question about kinky sex.) I get at least two phone calls a night from coworkers asking me sex questions. It also helps that there are several other bdsmers on my shift, as well as several swingers and poly folks (I think someone else mentioned somewhere that law enforcement seems to have a high number of kinksters).

I am open about many controversial things including my pagan religion, my bdsm activities, my child-free status, my support of gay rights, etc all of which are hot buttons in the area I live in. My friends and family know as well. I see no reason to be ashamed of it.

You have to understand that I am a very open person. I do not mince words or tell people what they want to hear. I work with 120 other people and I think almost all of them know I'm a BDSMer...I've just never felt the need to hide it. They call me "our resident kink freak" and "our resident weirdo".

I'm this way about everything. When I was having medical problems with my bladder, I talked about it openly. When I had my tubes tied, I told everyone I knew. I just don't keep secrets well. Anyone who has ever met me knows my whole life story because I'm not very good at shutting up :P

And although I am arguing with you velvetears, I do not mean it as any sort of a personal attack and do not mind answering any questions you ask me.

And yes, I have been told I am very intolerant to those of a different belief structure than my own. Perhaps I may grow out of it in time, perhaps not.

You're very lucky to be in a position to do that, sure wish i could but i'd be fired in a heartbeat lol. i know a cop in my area into the lifestyle and he has no problem with living it openly - he has that bdsm emblem tattoo on his arm. i don't think too many professions are that openminded or forgiving. Maybe one day, we can only hope and dream :-)

i haven't thought of our exchange as arguing really - more as debating something we both don't agree on but feel very passionately about :-) i get a good sense about you, and you remind me of myself in some ways lol..... i think you'd probably make an awesome friend, loyalty would rank high in your book i would wager.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 3/13/2007 5:17:47 PM >

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 5:17:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

heather: Maybe there is better way for this topic to evolve, and maybe it does need to be agreed upon (it was a lil' extreme as an example, in retrospect). He does have an open relationship, and his wife knows all about it, and she has her own partner, too, so he really isn't rationalizing much, IMO he just is basically what I view as Poly.

Susan, I dont understand why you feel compelled to reitterate again and again that cloudboy is poly.
Everything Ive posted to this thread has been with very clear knowledge of the nature of cloudboy's primary relationship.
I do not equate poly with cheating.
I do not equate open relationships with cheating.

This thread is not about poly. It is about cheating. It is about fidelity. Poly-fidelity is still fidelity. It is open and honest. Everything is on the table and people are not being deceived.

quote:

He's talked about that here a few times before.

Yes, as have you. And I have read and understand.

quote:

But I don't honestly believe he meant to insult to anyone (that's the problem w/the intenet, there is zero way to gauge things like affect, and true intent in some posts. But you'd maybe have to know him a little better to believe that. Trust me, he'd not intentionally insult many folks, and my impression is he's a pretty peaceful guy. I would personally stake a lot on believing that he didn't mean anything he said as a personal insult, to anyone. Nor was I insinuating monogamy, and faithfulness are not worthy goals or realities. Not at all (I am sorry if anything I said came off that way).

Susan, I so did not take what he said as a personal insult. I dont understand why someone who has championed the cause for Poly-Understanding on this board would then turn around and basically start a thread that justifies infidelity-- the very thing that a lot of people cant wrap their heads around poly NOT being.

quote:

My take: I think he feels it can sometimes be a lot lonelier out there for folks who've had to face a situation re: What to do about a partner who isn't interested in bdsm at all. There have been threads on this here, but not that many, and the ones I've seen rarely tell people in much detail how to cope with the situation, and how weird people who are in that situation can sometimes feel about it all (and maybe guilty too) before they finally come to terms with it. I really do think that was maybe his point in introducing the thread, and he wanted maybe to see where it went and how it would develop, and was hoping perhaps some who'd been in those circumstances would write in.

Lots of people find creative and honest ways of dealing with this. I know of a few myself.

quote:

And every time (I've seen) there has been a thread on this topic, it has seemed there is an overhwelming number of folks who can't envision any circumstance why anyone would be tempted to cheat - because they rarely offer personal examples from their own lives, or at least a lot more rarely, regardless of whether they'd do it themselves, or not. Some do, not many. I am not referring to you (and I mean no offense, I honestly don't.) I really do think faithfulness and communciation in a relationship are very worthy goals.

Susan, your thinking strikes me as incredibly black and white here. First of all, I dont know where these threads are where people say it's inconceivable to them that someone would be tempted to cheat.

Nobody is talking about not having any idea what it feels like to be tempted to cheat or saying it is bad, wrong or otherwise not acceptable to be tempted to cheat.

Secondly, the fact that people dont offer examples from their own lives might just mean they are not interested in offering the details of their personal lives to strangers.

quote:

I am saying for a bdsm website, the idea there might not be people who can even understand there could be circumstances where it's tempting to cheat, is one that has always striked me as slightly strange, considering they can envison tying someone up and whipping them or doing things like "play" rape, for example.

So, in your mind, there is not much difference between playing/a scene that involves force or violence or simulated rape, all with complete consent and enjoyed by all the parties involved, and stepping outside what is supposed to be a monogamous relationship without the knowledge or consent of your partner.
You really think that?

And again, NOBODY IS SAYING THEY DONT UNDERSTAND BEING TEMPTED TO CHEAT.

quote:

I don't feel particularly ostracized by these folks, but my circumstances were a little peculiar, too, maybe.

Susan, you have made it clear that your late husband abandoned his marriage vows and commitments long before you sought the company of another man.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 5:28:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

You're very lucky to be in a position to do that, sure wish i could but i'd be fired in a heartbeat lol. i know a cop in my area into the lifestyle and he has no problem with living it openly - he has that bdsm emblem tattoo on his arm. i don't think too many professions are that openminded or forgiving. Maybe one day, we can only hope and dream :-)

i haven't thought of our exchange as arguing really - more as debating something we both don't agree on but feel very passionately about :-) i get a good sense about you, and you remind me of myself in some ways lol..... i think you'd probably make an awesome friend, loyalty would rank high in your book i would wager.

I've noticed that law enforcement does seem to be very open about it (maybe cause we play with handcuffs and restraints all day and it lends itself to jokes? :P )

And thank you for the compliment :) I am passionate but I try to be a good person and loyalty is definately a HUGE thing to me. That's why I have only a small handful of friends...I won't call someone a friend unless I can dedicate myself to them.

_____________________________

"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:00:14 PM

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heather: Okay. I don't think he was necessarily trying to justify infidelity - I think he basically just wanted to talk about the topic, and see where it went, maybe. That's about it, really, but can see why some might wonder, maybe.

general comments: I do think it is a fascinating question.

The world is full of myriad circumstances and not everyone is the same. People, IMO, already really do know this.

The entire issue of "consent" isn't de facto, presumptively "solved" in the bdsm world, as far as I can see. I think it might be interesting to examine that area, too, as far as what constitutes "cheating" and the notion of "consent". I know how the theory goes - I am wondering more about the reality of some I've read about, and the "exceptions to the rule" as opposed to how it is always "supposed to work if everyone is trustworthy, and of course, always a "good person".

How do people deal?

I"ve read several post containing excellent questions where Dominants, for example, are expecting a submissives to do things like:

1) Have forced bi-sexual relationships when they know that submissive is straight, and is opposed to the idea, or find a second submissive, etc. - in situations where the insinuation seems to be that - because they've maybe just realized that this Dominant person isn't going to discuss, or really seem to care much, whether someone actually has the same idea of what "consent" actually means and entails, that means either one of them is justified in either expecting the other to "conform", or else the other person feels justified in saying "I won't do it".

What I am suggesting in mentioning this is that the whole area of what actually consitutes emotional "consent" might sometimes be pretty vague in practice - beyond a somewhat forced declaration of "okay, I'll go along with it" (but only because you won't really talk to me about it, and appear to reallly care what I feel, or what my needs are, and I have somehow accepted them as less important than yours, because I trusted you - and you in many ways seemed trustworthy, and I felt you'd always be considering my "best interests" - and it appears you're really not doing that -actually, but since I am the "submissive" and especially since this is a bdsm relationship, I of course feel that I might have to" say "yes" - or I am going to be "released".

So. Is this "consent"? Or not? I am not asking if it is "apparent what should be done". I guess I am asking how people would feel when faced with something like this - and what they do about it.

Is the Dominant "trustworthy" in this situation if he knows he/she is dealing with someone who prefers not to have another partner, or forced bi-sexual sex and insists on it anyway? It is a D/s relationship, and the two people were supposedly given "ample opportunity" to "get to know eachother" before any such situation could possibly ever arise, and everyone supposedly agreed before-hand on "what kind of person they actually were, what they would do, given this or that situation", and so on. Right?

I think many situations contain shades of gray - and I am suggesting situations about "consent" are not always easily resolved - except possibly in theory.

IMO, there can be lots of room for examining what anyone's notion of "cheating" or "consent" actually is. So maybe it would be interesting to examine questions like those, as well, since I see them as included in the topic.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/13/2007 6:26:49 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:23:45 PM

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quote:

I guess I just don't get why folks care what other people do, unless it involves them personally.

But cheating on people causes the spread of disease, and it causes broken homes. Those broken homes often cause wounded kids who grow up to be wounded adults that are incapable of having healthy relationships of their own. It does not always play out that way, but it OFTEN does... so no, it is not just the business of the two cheaters as to what they do, they hurt their entire families, even extended families, and this impacts their community. The family unit is the basic unit of society. Even if kids are not involved, even if one person gets hurt, it is wrong, but I thought I would answer why we would care.

If you want to have an intellectual exercise that will show you where I come from on this issue... replace the word "cheating" with "murder"... is murder always wrong Susan?

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(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:30:56 PM

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Well I edited that out (second thought). I agree with you that it can. Very much. I would also hate to see society abandon the idea of the nuclear family. I don't think it always happens, though. Other factors come into play, IMO, as far as how resilient a child is going to be in either scenario. I think there is an assumption made that the child always knows - that is not every kid's experience - not by a long shot, although it probably happens many times, of course. There is another presumption that when they do know, they are always completely devastated. Maybe that is more true, but not all the time.

And when they do know, there might be many kids in homes where the parents are miserable who might wish one of them would cheat, if it were guaranteed to stop the fighting, the drinking, etc.

IMO, someone's infidelity just isn't going to make them an ineffective parent automatically, I just think that is too simplistic, although I feel pretty safe in saying some cheaters might be ineffective parents, as some married non-cheating folks might be not very effective parents with really screwed up kids, as well as making wonderful parents.

I think we'd need to look at what people's notions are as far as what constitutes an effective parent, and also look at research that would back up any presumptions. I can do it, but maybe later (I am really zapped right now).

As opposed to a "which is the lesser evils" deal, I'd need a lot of time to do research before I'd venture what would still be a substantiated guess.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/13/2007 6:58:26 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:31:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If you want to have an intellectual exercise that will show you where I come from on this issue... replace the word "cheating" with "murder"... is murder always wrong Susan?

this, to me, is a bad parallel because just like cheating, there are cases in which murder may not be RIGHT but is conceivably understandable...like women who are severely beaten and kill their husbands out of desperation, or, well, you name it. there is grey area in any situation. in these situations, just as in, say, the coma clause, it's not necessarily right (perhaps to more of an extent than the coma clause), but it is understandable and perhaps a case where a lighter sentence or simply rehabilitation would be warranted. murder is not cut and dried, either, unfortunately. it's undeniably wrong the majority of the time, just like cheating, but just like cheating, there are complex causes and circumstances that have led up to it, and just like cheating, there are cases where, while it may not be right, it is perhaps understandable.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:34:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If you want to have an intellectual exercise that will show you where I come from on this issue... replace the word "cheating" with "murder"... is murder always wrong Susan?

i know you asked susan and i hope you don't mind my piping in as well on this one. Murder is not always wrong. You can murder someone because you are protecting yourself or your UM, mother, etc. The state murders people all the time - look at death row inmates. A woman can be battered and abused for years and snap, killing her abuser - i don't think murder, in these instances, most would consider wrong - well except me with one of them - i don't personally believe in capital punishment.... but many, many do.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:34:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If you want to have an intellectual exercise that will show you where I come from on this issue... replace the word "cheating" with "murder"... is murder always wrong Susan?

this, to me, is a bad parallel because just like cheating, there are cases in which murder may not be RIGHT but is conceivably understandable...like women who are severely beaten and kill their husbands out of desperation, or, well, you name it. there is grey area in any situation. in these situations, just as in, say, the coma clause, it's not necessarily right (perhaps to more of an extent than the coma clause), but it is understandable and perhaps a case where a lighter sentence or simply rehabilitation would be warranted. murder is not cut and dried, either, unfortunately. it's undeniably wrong the majority of the time, just like cheating, but just like cheating, there are complex causes and circumstances that have led up to it, and just like cheating, there are cases where, while it may not be right, it is perhaps understandable.

But the purpose of this debate is not "is it understandable" but rather "is it wrong". Many wrong actions are understandable.

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"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

(in reply to hisannabelle)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:38:50 PM

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Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If you want to have an intellectual exercise that will show you where I come from on this issue... replace the word "cheating" with "murder"... is murder always wrong Susan?

this, to me, is a bad parallel because just like cheating, there are cases in which murder may not be RIGHT but is conceivably understandable...like women who are severely beaten and kill their husbands out of desperation, or, well, you name it. there is grey area in any situation. in these situations, just as in, say, the coma clause, it's not necessarily right (perhaps to more of an extent than the coma clause), but it is understandable and perhaps a case where a lighter sentence or simply rehabilitation would be warranted. murder is not cut and dried, either, unfortunately. it's undeniably wrong the majority of the time, just like cheating, but just like cheating, there are complex causes and circumstances that have led up to it, and just like cheating, there are cases where, while it may not be right, it is perhaps understandable.

But the purpose of this debate is not "is it understandable" but rather "is it wrong". Many wrong actions are understandable.

yes, but understandable in the way that the coma case with cheating is understandable. killing someone in self-defense is wrong, because you're killing someone, but understandable, because you're saving yourself, your ums, what have you (that said, i don't personally subscribe to the idea that it's okay to kill someone in self-defense, for me, anyway - i'm pretty much a pacifist). this is why there are varying degrees of what constitutes murder, manslaughter, etc. killing your husband becuase he's been beating you for the last ten years, imho, warrants a much lighter sentence than killing some guy you ran into on the street and enjoying every minute of it. likewise, i would understand much more someone cheating in the coma case than someone just pissed off because their wife didn't want to have anal sex so they were seeking it out elsewhere.

i agree that it's not -right-, but it's also not necessarily black and white, either.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 6:45:08 PM

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you want to have an intellectual exercise that will show you where I come from on this issue... replace the word "cheating" with "murder"... is murder always wrong Susan?

*Grin* Two weeks ago Monday if you had asked me that I would have said absolutely not. But then that's a circumstance not for this particular thread, lol But let me tell you, if there ever was a good time for it.................fortunately my senses got the better of me, lol.

Carry on - - -

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 7:10:28 PM

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I don't think I'm missing your point at all. Cheating is what he is doing. By NOT gaining my Mum's approval, by NOT having her agreement, by NOT telling her clearly, openly and honestly......... He is cheating. If she KNEW he was, she'd be very hurt.

How many people suspect their partner is cheating but take no action to find out for certain? Most with this suspicion want to know because they do not want to live like that. Some come right out and ask...some may hire private detectives...whatever. They want to know so they can either 'fix it' (if they are so inclined)...or maybe leave...whatever.

When a person suspects their partner is cheating and takes no action to confirm or deny this, then what does that mean? It doesn't mean the guy isn't cheating....it means the other doesn't want to know. They have accepted that their partner might be cheating but have no desire to prove it. No, he hasn't told her and gained her approval....but she isn't disapproving either, is she?

If she were saying she did not approve of your father's going away and he continued to do it, i would think she would be unhappy. But according to you, she's not unhappy...but she doesn't approve of it.

She doesn't approve of it....she thinks he may be cheating....she chooses not to confront him about it...she is happy that her marriage is still intact.....she has certainly agreed to his going away and possibly cheating....but she doesn't really want to know if that's true or not. She'd be hurt if she knew he was cheating but she's not hurt by thinking he might be.

Honestly, this all sounds a bit convoluted to me. If i thought i were being cheated on, i would definitely want to know. If i didn't want to know so i could retain some semblance of a happy marriage (because if i knew the truth, the marriage wouldn't be so happy), then so be it. i guess that would be up to me. If that is what i am willing to accept....if that is how i prefer to handle the situation....no one is stopping me.

If my partner goes out with his friends every Sat night and while out, screws a different girl every night....if i suspect this but don't question it....then i accept that he might be screwing someone else. Otherwise, i would take some action to find out the truth.

She may not ask what he does when he's away .........but that is not anything like *giving her approval* to infidelity. If he does not have her approval, he is cheating on her.

Your mother is not saying 'i know he is cheating and i approve of that'. But she is saying 'he may be cheating but i'd rather not know for sure'.

Eh, after writing this whole thing, i realized i did not use the term 'approve of'....i used agreement....that your mom has agreed to allow your father to possibly be unfaithful, with no questions asked. i am not implying that she would approve of his cheating....but that she has accepted the possibility and chose to stay with him without knowing one way or the other.

There is a difference between agreement and approval.

DG

(in reply to agirl)

RE: CIAW - 3/13/2007 7:18:08 PM

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I don't think we're talking wrong, IMO we're talking always wrong. If murder, for instance, was always wrong, IMO, we would not have a justice system, or juries. The severity of the alleged offense (when it occurs) would not be separated by degrees - (1st degree, 2nd degree, negligent homicide, manslaughter, or not gulity by reason of insanity), for instance. Very good example, IMO.

As far as people always wanting to know if their partners are cheating, I think there are definitely folks who really don't want to know, or find out. If it's fine with them, it's fine with me, it's not my relationship. To me that doesn't mean there aren't people, who do defnitely want to know (of course there are).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/13/2007 7:29:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to adaddysgirl)

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