RE: CIAW (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:00:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

You are so brave cloudboy. I so much love it that you're a compassionate lawyer, and so prepared to take on tougher topics. I am reading the rest of the article now. Back in a few.[:)]

- Susan


Bravery is confronting your demons and life head on...I don't think anyone who cheats would use that particular adjective in describing their behaviour...Even Cloudboy.



velvetears -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:03:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Well duh... however, either work things out or leave. Just because someone broke their vows doesn't mean you should.


Work it out or leave....hmmmmmmmmmm... two options..... glad you can see it black or white - however i see many shades of grey here.



AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:06:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl


You can't control other peoples actions but you can control your own.

You can't control the fact that your spouse has become frigid towards you...but you have a choice in whether or not you stay in that relationship.



Are you sure about this?? Across the board, for everyone, in every situation??  i don't agree with this statement - many don't have a choice, if simply because the choice would be choosing a greater of two evils. 


But if you admit that it's choosing the lesser of two evils they why you won't admit that it's still wrong. Just perhaps the lesser wrong in a particular situation. Still wrong though.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:06:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl


You can't control other peoples actions but you can control your own.

You can't control the fact that your spouse has become frigid towards you...but you have a choice in whether or not you stay in that relationship.



Are you sure about this?? Across the board, for everyone, in every situation??  i don't agree with this statement - many don't have a choice, if simply because the choice would be choosing a greater of two evils. 

Yes, I am absolutely sure.

You either remain faithful and be with that person, you leave, or you inform that person that you are going to start having other sex partners and it is their choice to accept it or leave. . Those are the only acceptable choices in MY opinion. The vow says "for better or worse" not "only when I'm happy, fulfilled, and getting fucked when I want, the way I want".

Lying and cheating (which go hand and in hand) are always wrong. Period.





GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:08:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Well duh... however, either work things out or leave. Just because someone broke their vows doesn't mean you should.


Work it out or leave....hmmmmmmmmmm... two options..... glad you can see it black or white - however i see many shades of grey here.

I don't see a SINGLE fricking shade of grey on this subject. Cheating is a horrible, despicable thing to do. There is absolutely not ONE excuse or reason for lying to and betraying someone you are with. Not ONE. Never, ever, ever for any reason. It is always 100% wrong. If you can't be faithful to a person, don't be with them. Be a man (or a woman) and walk away.



AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:08:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Well duh... however, either work things out or leave. Just because someone broke their vows doesn't mean you should.


Work it out or leave....hmmmmmmmmmm... two options..... glad you can see it black or white - however i see many shades of grey here.


I see tons of shades of grey. There are many different situations. However, if you want to avoid doing something is wrong, then those are your options. If you are going to cheat, accept that it is wrong and deal with it.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:09:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl


You can't control other peoples actions but you can control your own.

You can't control the fact that your spouse has become frigid towards you...but you have a choice in whether or not you stay in that relationship.



Are you sure about this?? Across the board, for everyone, in every situation??  i don't agree with this statement - many don't have a choice, if simply because the choice would be choosing a greater of two evils. 


But if you admit that it's choosing the lesser of two evils they why you won't admit that it's still wrong. Just perhaps the lesser wrong in a particular situation. Still wrong though.


Ditto. The lesser of two evils is still an evil. Being the lesser evil doesn't make it "good" or even "neutral." It makes it, a lesser EVIL. You have a choice to commit that evil. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you have sex with that person.



velvetears -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:13:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


But if you admit that it's choosing the lesser of two evils they why you won't admit that it's still wrong. Just perhaps the lesser wrong in a particular situation. Still wrong though.


i tend to try and steer clear of judgemental words like "wrong"  - Many think we that do wiitwd are "wrong".  i am sure you wouldn't be in agreement of that. 

i may not agree with you geekygirl but i applaud your passion in how you feel - i hope it serves you well in life - when you set up hard lines drawn in the sand, you set yourself up for disappointments in life.  The longer you live on this planet, the more you realize all your idealized thoughts about "right" and "wrong" get a bit blurred. 



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:14:42 PM)

i'm in the ciaw camp, 99% of the time. there's that 1% of really special cases, but those are like when the wife has been in a coma for 10 years and the husband's staying married to her so that the hospital bills get paid and she's taken care of and such. those are really not the majority of cheating cases.

it's not that i think sexual exclusivity is important. i'm all for fucking whomever you like. but be honest about it. honesty and cheating don't go in the same sentence, and it's the dishonesty, with cheating, that pisses me off so much.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:18:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

i'm in the ciaw camp, 99% of the time. there's that 1% of really special cases, but those are like when the wife has been in a coma for 10 years and the husband's staying married to her so that the hospital bills get paid and she's taken care of and such. those are really not the majority of cheating cases.

it's not that i think sexual exclusivity is important. i'm all for fucking whomever you like. but be honest about it. honesty and cheating don't go in the same sentence, and it's the dishonesty, with cheating, that pisses me off so much.



Ditto! I hadn't thought of the coma situation...I think I could understand that one maybe.

For me, it's the dishonesty...Lying is just so WRONG.



AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:19:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears


i tend to try and steer clear of judgemental words like "wrong"  - Many think we that do wiitwd are "wrong".  i am sure you wouldn't be in agreement of that. 

i may not agree with you geekygirl but i applaud your passion in how you feel - i hope it serves you well in life - when you set up hard lines drawn in the sand, you set yourself up for disappointments in life.  The longer you live on this planet, the more you realize all your idealized thoughts about "right" and "wrong" get a bit blurred. 


The thing is that it's wrong by what we do. We value, or claim to value, consent. Some of us give blanket consent to everything - meaning that our partner can go out and hump others at their delight. That isn't cheating, in my opinion because a consent was given. We are talking about situations where consent wasn't given and that violates the trust and consent that we claim to build our relationships on.



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:19:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


But if you admit that it's choosing the lesser of two evils they why you won't admit that it's still wrong. Just perhaps the lesser wrong in a particular situation. Still wrong though.


i tend to try and steer clear of judgemental words like "wrong"  - Many think we that do wiitwd are "wrong".  i am sure you wouldn't be in agreement of that. 

i may not agree with you geekygirl but i applaud your passion in how you feel - i hope it serves you well in life - when you set up hard lines drawn in the sand, you set yourself up for disappointments in life.  The longer you live on this planet, the more you realize all your idealized thoughts about "right" and "wrong" get a bit blurred. 


If I ever become the kind of person who thinks cheating is acceptable, just go ahead and shoot me. The world doesn't need any more dishonest people. I hope to gods that line NEVER gets "blurred" for me. What a horrible thought.





GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:22:14 PM)

ACK....the quote function didn't work correctly and it won't let me edit it!



DesertRat -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:22:49 PM)

I try to avoid being overly judgemental, too. When it comes to this subject, though, I don't agonize much over it. It's just wrong. Poly or consensual swinging or open relationships are one thing. Sneaking around behind someone's trusting back is something completely different. I've heard the rationalizations, not just from the cheaters, but from people defending them. Sorry, it's nothing but lame.

I don't claim perfection. What I do claim is the right and the intent to slouch off in the general direction of perfection.

Bob



GeekyGirl -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:26:50 PM)

For the record, though I have never cheated, I have been an accessory to cheating and that is one of the main reasons I feel so strongly. He gave all the right "excuses" as why what he was doing was "ok" (she doesn't love me, I'm staying for my UM, etc etc). In the long run, I realized that although his wife really was a bitch and he really did have an UM to look out for, he was still a sorry excuse for a human being and what he did caused irreversable pain and damage to me, to himself, to his wife, and to his UM. After seeing that, I just can't ever accept the concept that cheating can be anything but WRONG. He was wrong for what he did, and I was too. Although I am not a cheater, I helped someone else cheat and it was a horrible and despicable thing no matter what his reasons were or what MY reasons were (and my reason, at the time, seemed pretty valid...I was hopelessly in love with him). Despite all that, it was still WRONG what we did.



gooddogbenji -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:33:23 PM)

First off, to all of those people who insist it is wrong across the board, who died and made you king?

You have every right to consider it wrong for yourselves, but as much as you would not want me imposing my beliefs on you (There is no right and wrong.  Period.), there is no reason why anyone here should accept your beliefs. 

I think any debate on "right and wrong" will always deteriorate into a few camps, one of which has the luxury of taking the high road of morality to look down on the commoners, shuffling along, broken, on the muddy road to hell.

My definition of cheating (Or one of mine, at least) is that anything, sexual or not, which you feel you must hide from your partner is cheating.  If you have promised your husband to only ever go bowling with him, and you go with someone else, you just cheated on the relationship.

I don't think it's wrong, but I don't see myself ever doing it.  It's good to be on a high horse, aint it?

Yours,


benji



AquaticSub -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:38:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

i'm in the ciaw camp, 99% of the time. there's that 1% of really special cases, but those are like when the wife has been in a coma for 10 years and the husband's staying married to her so that the hospital bills get paid and she's taken care of and such. those are really not the majority of cheating cases.

it's not that i think sexual exclusivity is important. i'm all for fucking whomever you like. but be honest about it. honesty and cheating don't go in the same sentence, and it's the dishonesty, with cheating, that pisses me off so much.



That sums up my feelings rather nicely. I can understand it in the case of the coma. I still think it cause huge relationship issues if she wakes up though! [:D]



velvetears -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:38:22 PM)

[sm=applause.gif] Thank you benji..... better conveyed then me



hisannabelle -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:39:30 PM)

benji,

i look at it this way. the majority of acts in the world that i wouldn't ever want to do and don't agree with, i don't assert are "morally wrong" by my standards. there are a few acts, like murder (in a lot of cases), rape (in 99% of cases), etc. where i just think they're wrong and i have no problem condemning people for doing them. if you want to call it me getting up on my high horse, feel free. i'm not trying to say that i don't do things that others find morally wrong. there's a shitload of conservative christians who probably think my bisexuality and polyamory are wrong. and that's fine and dandy. i think people have a right to their own morals and beliefs, and a right to state the kinds of things that they find morally wrong, and a right to avoid situations and people where those things are present. for example, i think the things my cousin has done to her ums because of crack addiction are wrong. while i won't sit around and yell at her for being addicted to crack (because i understand that a lot of addiction is not easy to handle, having been an addict of other things myself, and that it's a lot of complex causes and conditions that have led her here, and i'm not blaming her for all or even a majority of them), i also refuse to enable her addiction in any way, and will do whatever i can to ensure that she gets better and that her ums are safe. likewise, if i know someone who is cheating, i will make it clear that i don't approve of the behavior and will refuse to enable it in any way, because it causes pain to those around the person and, in the long run, to the person involved. i don't think i'm a moral authority, but i do have the right to decide what i will and will not accept, behaviorally, from the people i associate with. if that means i stop associating with them, then that's what it means. if it means, like in my cousin's situation, i have to call the cops, or take some other kind of drastic measure, i'll do it. i really don't give a damn what people think of me because of it.



Celeste43 -> RE: CIAW (3/11/2007 4:39:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Since when is not being perfect an excuse for inflicting non-consentual emotional pain on an entire family?


My neighbor ought to be celebrating 40 years of marriage this year. Instead he's spending it as he has the last several, waiting for his wife to die of Lou Gehrig's disease. She hasn't been able to talk for two years. She can't even sit in a wheelchair and go into the sun or fresh air.

I hope to god that he has an old friend, widowed as he soon will be, who is comforting him with physical affection. I doubt it but I hope so. Because him going off to see a friend for lunch or coffee and winding up with her in her bed wouldn't destroy his family or hers. Not unless some heartless nurse's aide leans down and whispers in her ear that he was screwing someone on the side.

And having known her for twenty years, I wouldn't be surprised if in her heart, she hopes he's getting some love and affection occasionally to keep him going strong as he's there for her day in and day out.



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