RE: Doms requiring us to be braless

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RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 5:19:35 AM

curiouslyseeking

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I believe a Dom has a “right” to demand anything He wishes. Just as I believe a sub has a “right” of refusal until authority is established. This could have been before or after the meeting depending on the online discussions and agreements, a part of the story we have limited knowledge on.

However, Patina knew well in advance what was expected and at this point totally her choice whether to go. If communication had failed before the first meeting, then, a huge red flag for the relationship.

Undoubtedly, she addressed her concerns to him and for him, whether right, wrong or indifferent, were not valid in His opinion.

Just for benefit of the doubt, he could have seen she complied and then asked her to go to the restroom to put her bra on…many different scenarios could have applied. There is no good, bad or the ugly in this situation. It’s all about choice.

No poor subbie, mean ole Dom banner should be waived here.

All things were discussed and negotiated upon. If negotiations are hard limits and the other person does not understand…then, the meeting should have never taken place by Patina’s choice or the Dom’s choice.

It was Patina’s choice to go to the meeting. It was Patina’s choice not to follow orders. It was His choice to be displeased.

The fact of what he asked for is irrelevant, the fact he asked for something is relevant and since she went to the meeting to me that means she was doing selective compliance, which spells doom for a potential D/s relationship.

In an effort not to sound so callous, I am sorry the relationship didn’t work out for you as well as him and I wish you much success in the future in what you seek.

(in reply to krikket)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 5:26:20 AM

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cs,

Your points are all very well thought and expressed. You clearly have a very honest and reasonable understanding of the basic principles of a D/s relationship. I'm sure your Dom is very happy to have you in his life.

(in reply to curiouslyseeking)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 6:36:44 AM

curiouslyseeking

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Joined: 1/11/2007
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quote:

cs,

Your points are all very well thought and expressed. You clearly have a very honest and reasonable understanding of the basic principles of a D/s relationship. I'm sure your Dom is very happy to have you in his life.

( a very big smile)..Thank you.

I do hope I am a reflection of all of the postive influences from Dominants on my journey and the teachings of my Master to be His perfection and His pride.

This girl definitely has had some lessons on "selective compliance" (grin).

(in reply to NControlofU)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 6:50:49 AM

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Patina, it sounds to me like he got this idea from "The ABC's of First TIme BDSM Meetings" book - not a very creative approach. i think you did the right thing - never do anything you are not comfortable with - especially someone you owe no allegiance to - he wasn't YOUR dom, he was a potential dom. i do think you could have spared yourself a useless meeting and waste of time if you had simply stated "i wil not meet you without my bra, if you are not ok with that, then i think we do not need to proceed further"

Why on earth should a sub have to prove she can follow orders on a first meet? Sounds to me he had a big boobie fetish or got off on humiliating someone. Which is his perogative - AFTER he finds himself someone to consent to it.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 3/14/2007 6:51:17 AM >

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(in reply to patina)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 7:06:35 AM

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patina--Master let this slave know of things that would be required of her should we enter into a relationship together...but those things were not required for a first meet.

to everyone who thinks mature breasts are "gross" and need to be either shoved into a brassiere constantly or surgically corrected:

quote:

The first comprehensive study on the subject was done by medical researcher Sydney Singer, after his wife Soma Grismaijer discovered a lump on her breast. She got rid of hers in two months by quitting wearing bra, doing regular breast massage and exercise, drinking only purified water, and taking some herbs and supplemental vitamins and minerals.
Singers noticed that the Maoris of New Zealand integrated into white culture have the same rate of breast cancer, while the marginalized aboriginals of Australia have practically no breast cancer. The same was true for "Westernized" Japanese, Fijians and other bra-converted cultures.
In the early 1990s Singers studied 4,500 women in 5 cities across the U.S. about their habits in purchasing and wearing bras, and later published their findings in a book "Dressed to Kill". Though the study did not take into account other lifestyle factors, the results are too striking to be denied:

3 out of 4 women who wore their bras 24 hours per day developed breast cancer.
1 out of 7 women who wore bras more than 12 hour per day but not to bed developed breast cancer.
1 out of 152 women who wore their bras less than 12 hours per day got breast cancer.
1 out of 168 women who wore bras rarely or never acquired breast cancer.

for more information on breasts, breast health and for pictures of "normal" looking mature breasts:
http://www.007b.com/bras_breast_cancer.php

Edited to add: (By Merc)
But pet you must be honest. You're correct, I didn't require no bra at the first meeting, but if mammary serves, I think it was gone at about an hour into the first meeting. A breach of my integrity of which I am not proud, of me telling you there would be no play - no sexual contact, and a strictly platonic 'get to know each other' first contact. Since then, except for those rare occasions dictated by vanilla business meetings or formal family dinners, you've been natural. And a lovely natural at that!

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/14/2007 7:27:16 AM >

(in reply to patina)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 7:26:32 AM

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It was your first meeting with him and he wasn't your dominant at the time. Short of an actual emergency ("You! Without the bra! Call the police!"), no random yahoo has the right to give you orders and expect them to be obeyed, I don't care what title he decides to put before his name. Until you accept his authority, his collar or whatever; there has been no consentual power exchange.

Now, would he have been right to ask that of you if you'd be collared to him? I know of doms who prefer their women naked all the time, and sans underwear in mundane public. The women do it. They stand out, but they do it.

(in reply to slaveish)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 8:02:39 AM

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There's a wide gray area here being ignored. On one hand, he made his expectations to you explicitly clear. On the other, you've made it clear you weren't comfortable with his expectations. Instead of discussing, negotiating, and resolving these issues you went ahead and 'did what you wanted' knowing full well that it would not be in keeping with his expectations. Now it seems you are here, looking for us to pat you on the back for chasing away a man as a player, instead of admitting that you simply didn't want to be with him.

If a Dom wants things 'X' and you do them 'Y' expect him to be frustrated. Talk about it first; it prevents you from ever having to whine about it.

Stephan

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(in reply to Mustardseed)

RE: Doms requiring us to be bra less - 3/14/2007 8:29:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

As you had agreed to meet, was he expecting you to comply with his instructions?
Or did you make a unilateral decision?
I have just had a similar situation, I had asked to meet a young lady from here for a coffee. As I have no intention of pursuing a traditional vanilla girl, I told her that I would like to introduce 2 small elements of control for this meeting. I would place the order for her and I would like to choose one article of what she would wear that day to the meeting.( think heels or dress here, the bra things a bit much for a first meet in my opinion)
She was not comfortable with this and we decided not to meet.
She had her reason ( not enthusiastic about letting someone she hadn't met yet taking control )
And I had mine ( for me its a minor leap of faith )

I would have asked if you had explained your reluctance about not wearing a bra ( he may not of understood the logistics of your size ) and you two could have agreed on something else.
Better luck next time...

I will never understand why so many subs are ok with THIS, but horrified at the idea of just being asked to bring a gift or $10 instead? It's the same thing and same principle, just different form and maybe a bit more blatant.

I wonder why Stern thinks kinky people don't have lunches without expectations of authority, specially a first date.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to Sternhand4)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 8:38:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

There's a wide gray area here being ignored. On one hand, he made his expectations to you explicitly clear. On the other, you've made it clear you weren't comfortable with his expectations. Instead of discussing, negotiating, and resolving these issues you went ahead and 'did what you wanted' knowing full well that it would not be in keeping with his expectations.

Excellent point...

Master Fire

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(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 8:43:38 AM

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You were right to tell him get lost. I am not allowed to wear a bra (but i am only a B cup) sometimes he allows me panties. He is my Master however so i must obey him. Just some random guy cannot tell you to do that on a first meet . You are well rid of him.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 9:02:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

I have had a lot of Dom's tell me they want me to go braless in public why can't they realize its just not possible for use huge gals. If i could get a reduction i would but no medical insurance.

patina

Because it makes them hard to think about large breasts, swinging free?

On a first meet, I'm going to be attired as my mother would see fit - unless we are meeting up at a play party or other BDSM event. If you weren't in a relationship yet, then it sounds like he was a power trip. The whole "no underwear" thing before he's even met you makes me suspicious anyway. I would probably have told him no way. Too sex oriented for a first meeting. Just my .02

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(in reply to patina)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 9:12:44 AM

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quote:

Mustardseed: ("You! Without the bra! Call the police!"),

Ahhh....even in the most insipid threads, there are gems.

E

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"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Mustardseed)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 9:13:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

This Dom hit the ceiling when he found out i had disobeyed him i told him he was not my Master yet i did not have to do as he ordered and i am to big to go braless in public. We argued for a bit it ended with him stating the point is you were to show you could follow orders. I said well i felt i had good reason not to. He looked at me and said humm this is not good.   I just shrugged and looked away.

Now as stated before does a Dom have the right to tell you to not wear a bra on a first meeting then say its to see if you can follow orders.  And yes I had tried to explain before about how big i was had sent some suggestive pic not naked ones but where he could judge the size. He said he would decide when he saw me as to whether or not i was too big well excuse me its too late then.

I have had a lot of Dom's tell me they want me to go braless in public why can't they realize its just not possible for use huge gals. If i could get a reduction i would but no medical insurance.

patina

Dear Patina,

You have just taken a learning step in the art of communication. I have stepped in those shoes myself. What you are not considering is the "Butterfly frenzy mouth disorder" lol when your heart is so excited, your brain is so focused and put on fast forward, that you overlook, the sharing of "enough" facts, and wish He could read your mind as well as your intense resistance to something. And the correct words to communicate do not come to you. You think you told him something clear enough, but end results tell you, you did not. (of course on the flip side, he should have felt your ambivalence and dug into it deeper)

Take the emotionality out of it. Think of the communication as a science. Cover all aspects before you meet, across the table isn't a good time for negotiations. Have verbage or phrases handy, (while in early communications,) so you are not fumbling for words while emotional. Chances are, you will be sharing this info with several Doms as you go through this journey

ex: I am not comfortable with_____ and this is why_____.
This is a limit/hard limit for me.

An experienced and/or caring Dominant will talk this through and help you both get through it.

Sometimes you have to just chalk it up to.."not a good match" and move on. And, expect to see more.

A few years back I used to go on "practice" interviews when looking for employment, to learn the mechanics of ME and the process. :) Think of this as one of those.

Breathe~

(in reply to patina)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 9:31:49 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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Very nice advice.
I agree that a Dom/me should indeed delve into the 'why's' a sub/slave may not want to do a particular thing. Especially if it is something they want or expect. If a Dom/me wants to air nudey pix of you online, to your family, or whatever, the Dom/me has the right to want to do that. If a sub is uncomfortable with this action, and only says, I don't know...the Dom/me should probe the sub to find out HOW uncomfortable they truly are. It needs to be clear if it is a soft limit/hard limit/or non-negotiable limit. Once it has been determined what type of limit it is, it is then up to the Dom/me to decide whether or not they want to go without it in that relationship. If not, then the relationship should end before it actually becomes an issue.

(in reply to BreatheinToMe)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 8:02:38 PM

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I have had a similar experience of a potential Dom giving me orders before entering into a relationship. We have met a few times and talk online quite often. He had asked met he first tiem we met if I smoked, and I told him honestly that yes I did, well sometiem later he caught me smoking and had a compelete freak out. He told me I was never to smoke when I was talking to him and that everytime I wanted a smoke I had to insert a large butt plug. Umm no offense buddy but you are not my Dom, and have no right to tell me I can't do something. If he had said that he didn't like me smoking and wished I wouldn't do it when he was around or when I was talking to him that's a different story. But he flat out told me I wasn't allowed to and was giving me a punishment for it.
I know it's not the same as being asked to go braless on the first meeting, but for some reason there are Dom's out there that do expect total obedience before a relationship is even started. I don't think that it is just the Doms though, I do know some subs that are over eager to submit immediately upon meeting a potenial Dom. It does go both ways

(in reply to Domin8tingUrDrmz)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/14/2007 8:53:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

There's a wide gray area here being ignored. On one hand, he made his expectations to you explicitly clear. On the other, you've made it clear you weren't comfortable with his expectations. Instead of discussing, negotiating, and resolving these issues you went ahead and 'did what you wanted' knowing full well that it would not be in keeping with his expectations. Now it seems you are here, looking for us to pat you on the back for chasing away a man as a player, instead of admitting that you simply didn't want to be with him.

If a Dom wants things 'X' and you do them 'Y' expect him to be frustrated. Talk about it first; it prevents you from ever having to whine about it.

Stephan

Very good point Stephann.

quote:

The fact of what he asked for is irrelevant, the fact he asked for something is relevant and since she went to the meeting to me that means she was doing selective compliance, which spells doom for a potential D/s relationship.
curiouslyseeking

Very good point as well! In my short time, i have learned this lesson myself...

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(in reply to Stephann)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/15/2007 2:11:29 AM

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Obviously they talked about it beforehand...I am still wondering if she made herself clear to him.
If she said "no, I'm sorry but I will not go braless on this our first meet " and then he got mad then, yeah, he's probably just an asshole and she was right to hold her ground but if she never really made it clear then maybe he was half expecting her to show up without one. It may just be a case of different expectations and poor communication and the wrong fit.
[/quote]

No i made it clear to him he just didn't believe I would refuse to ignore his orders. I have since figured out by thinking over the whole days event with him that he is an egotistical (sp?) moron that will never have another sub until he changes. I had decided by the end of the evening that i was not going to have anything more to do with him.

I am asking here as a reference reason.

patina

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RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/15/2007 8:22:42 PM

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Patina:

A couple of years this moronic, local dom and I had exchanged phone numbers. He wanted to start training me. He was telling me what to dress, not to speak to him unless he initiated the conversation and where to meet him. This was all well and good until he left a message on my voice mail, telling me that I should really clean my anal area becaue he wanted to have anal sex with me.

I called him back and told him that I had to cancel because he was not properly behaving himself like a true dom should be towards a sub. I also had a better evening without him because I don't need "instadoms" and just because I am submissive does not mean I am a doormat, either. You did the right thing.

(in reply to patina)

RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/15/2007 8:43:11 PM

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Did you know that he didn't believe you before you went? If so, then at least part of the blame still lies upon you. If you thought that he got it, then ... yeah, he's a dumbass.

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RE: Doms requiring us to be braless - 3/17/2007 9:20:15 AM

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While I heartily agree that going braless with big breasts in public might not be the best idea (36DD here, I rarely if ever do this), there are a couple of points that seem to be getting glossed over by most of the responses.

If you are meeting someone with the intent of perhaps starting a d/s relationship with them - of *course* you are going to judge them based on those standards. How many posts have we seen on here from submissives who opine about meeting someone they've chatted with but he just didn't "feel" dominant or push those buttons for you? Any first meeting with a potential dominant or submissive is colored through that lens, and believing that it isn't is living in fantasyland.

The "dominant" in question certainly had a right to ask what he did. The "submissive" in question certainly had a right to say No to his request.

My question is this: If you told him no, and he specifically told you that he didn't believe you wouldn't do it - why on earth would you waste your time meeting him in the first place? You knew you weren't going to do it. You knew he would judge you based on your *not* doing it. Why bother at all?

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(in reply to SweetDommes)

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