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History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:23:13 PM   
briska


Posts: 126
Joined: 7/12/2006
Status: offline 		I was just wondering; after doing a bit of research (or trying to) I haven't been able to find a good site or book concerning the history of BDSM and how 'the scene' came about.  Is there anyone out there who could help me with either a reliable website or name of a book I could look into?

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:29:08 PM   
WilliamWizer


Posts: 223
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline 		Something tells me that it will be a very, very old book.

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:33:57 PM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline 		My guess is it would start out in cuneiform or hieroglyphs or a bit of both.

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:34:43 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

Something tells me that it will be a very, very old book.


Well that really depends on what exactly you are looking for. If it is the roots of when people started engaging in kinky behaviors....yes, it will be very old....ancient even. But if it is the history associated with the term "BDSM"....it will probably be newer than you think.

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:37:47 PM   
WilliamWizer


Posts: 223
Joined: 3/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer

Something tells me that it will be a very, very old book.


Well that really depends on what exactly you are looking for. If it is the roots of when people started engaging in kinky behaviors....yes, it will be very old....ancient even. But if it is the history associated with the term "BDSM"....it will probably be newer than you think.


history associated with BDSM activity not with the term. a flower will smell like a flower even if you call it by another name.

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:38:36 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know that there is a book on it, but you might do some searches on Viola Johnson and her BDSM library which is perhaps one of the most extensive collections around.  If anyone would know of such a book, she would probably be the best one to ask.  You can find her personal web site here.

Viola Johnson

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:44:46 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		This might be a start:

http://www.leatherarchives.org/exhibits/deblase/timeline.htm

http://www.backdrop.net/sm201/index.php?title=Time_Line

http://www.backdrop.net/bdsm-history/DeBlase.html

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 3/29/2007 11:31:50 PM >

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/29/2007 10:52:05 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear biska, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
BDSM is a rather new term.  Debauchery is what the term was to encompass those sexual behaviors which was contrary to the norm for centuries.
 
As has been advised, Vi Johnson's Leather Library and Archives has a large selection of books and vintage magazines and publications. 
 
I have seen some erotic art, dating in the 1800's labeled "Aristotle and his Mistress Phyllis," where Phyllis is riding Aristotle like a pony, to include a bit in his mouth, reins and she is holding a whip as to apply it on his backside.  I've also seen a photograph of a French Dominatrix dated 1922.  The Hell Fire Club, which was on the grounds of an abandoned Abby, was allegedly visited by Ben Franklin in the 1700's.
I'm sure more specific examples of history in 'fact' can come from the catalog of items from the library.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 1:55:59 AM   
obey1


Posts: 227
Joined: 11/26/2005
Status: offline 		Calling Celeste!  Calling Celeste!

What monies could be made by subjecting primates to pain and measuring their sexual response!  The whole intelligent discussion is bullshit.

Physical beings have hormonal reactions to pain.  The far most common is the body's response like a drug to mask the pain so the being can continue exisiting.  It is call the survival instinct.  Someone can break their leg and run on it for miles if it involves their loved ones.  Children can lift cars to save their parent from death.

One of the lesser known archaeological discoveries was a pit of infant skulls in the Negev valley in Israel.  Along with that terrible discovery they found large jars with psychoactive plant material residue.  One of the more public surviving entities is the Refraim circle in Lebanon, and of course Easter Island and Stonehenge.

Homo-sapiens have been addicted to brain-endorphins longer than a monkey has made fire, or a caveman has switched to Geico.

The bible in Genesis describes Cain who is forced to leave with a mark on his head.  He would be killed was his fear.  Killed by whom?  The territory was called Nod and the first named city and king was Enoch.  As we know Enoch is too close for the other word Enuch, which is a man who has had too much CBT.

Punishing the genitals goes way way way back.  You don't have to be too stupid to understand that the genitals bring forth life, and they also are associated with the pleasure derived from procreation.  That being said to dominate someone's ability to procreate is akin to total submission, or marriage, or a D/s relationship.

"In the beginning He created them male and female"  Old bible words for D/s.  Our bodies are vessels that house possibly an entirely different being inside.

The early judges, Samson, Deborah, and Saul were charged with keeping the "Gentile" (genital) beings from running amok.  David fought the philistines (Palestine) who had a statue of Dagon, a 'dragon' headed biped who called his followers into the later termed 'debauchery'.  Today debauchery still involves drug or alcohol use of some sort.

Many people will argue that drug use frees your mind.  Many people will argue that the endorphins released through BDSM will free your mind too.

When was it nomeclatured?  Well, Marques de Sade 'created' Sadism.  Sade just sings some sexy ass songs like "The Sweetest Taboo".  Leopold.....Masoch can be creditied post mortem for Masochism.

Bondage?  Well I think people have been tying up prisoners for years now.....and the list goes on.  You may find some early works that were not burned (LOL) with the Mongolian invasion of the muslim territories, or possibly something that survived through the Euorpean invasion of Hitler and the SS, but good luck to you.

We have never been allowed to be non-volatile and express 'fun and pleasure' within the bounds of a normal society.  Just try it now with your local politician.  Torture cannot be made legal.  Hostile militants being held in Guantanamo bay cannot be tortured.  Slavery was eradicated with Lincoln and the Civil War.

What we have today is SSC, WIITWD, and BDSM.  These are all manifestations of chakra pleasure centers for pain sluts and alot of BBW's who like chocolate as well.

Why do we need to explain ourselves constantly or look to history to give us validation?

BDSM "STARTED" with the Spanish Inquisition.  In that venture a religious organization hired engineers to devise contraptions for torture.  The priests were so involved with the torture that they took their pedophilia which had started 400 years earlier in 1200 with the edict of celibacy and cloistre (secret societies) and finally said "hey, it is fun to torture adults too!"  That is why/how the cross or X made it's way into recreation.  Or you could start with the Romans who flogged and crucified thousands of persons about 2000 years ago.

I mean really..........who cares less than 50-100 years ago anyway?

There is Freud, there is Hitler as I mentioned (what power to rape and shave heads) and there is Emily Post, "The Wild One" with Marlon Brando, and the Leather culture.

There is also the man of ill repute Norman who took a chance and wrote alot of it down, and invented 53 scenarios to play with, and then there is modern history, which is much advanced and has alot of children who were born recently and are now know-it-alls.  Watch out for them!!!!!

What was your question?






< Message edited by obey1 -- 3/30/2007 2:07:39 AM >

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 3:12:31 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Obey1 is correct. This is as old as time. I mean there are many drawings of Egyptians being whipped while they obediently stayed put. I suspect prehistoric cave women desired to be captured, whipped and sexually taken.  

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 5:19:05 AM   
WilliamWizer


Posts: 223
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Obey1 is correct. This is as old as time. I mean there are many drawings of Egyptians being whipped while they obediently stayed put. I suspect prehistoric cave women desired to be captured, whipped and sexually taken.  


I don't think that Egyptian slavery was consensual or that cave women were whipped but I share with you the idea of cave women desiring to be captured and sexually taken.

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- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 6:47:59 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I'm glad someone mentioned the Tony DeBlase's timeline on the Leather Archives site, it shows that pain and sex and power have been mixed for centuries. But again the question is what part of the history are you looking for?



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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 6:52:43 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		There are actually two US histories lines...the het one and the gay one. The modern US het history has roots in Victorian and kinda is the history of BDSM and the modern US gay history has roots in WWII motorcycle messengers and kinda is the history of Leather. There's LOTS of overlap because, obviously, the gay leathermen are into BDSM.

Here's a time line of events and such, mostly of the modern US gay history.
http://www.leatherarchives.org/exhibits/deblase/timeline.htm

If you ever want a huge dose of the above, find Vi Johnsons's Leather Library. Her printed stuff goes back into Civil War, I believe.

Master Fire




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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 7:49:34 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		As a historian I have serious issues with two things in these sorts of questions:

First, we need to have a clear definition of what defines BDSM if we are looking for a history of it. Without it anything can be construed at a precusor.

Second, why do we want such a history of what we do? What is the benefit of this? What is the goal of finding such information?

I personally find no evidence that what we define as BDSM exists in most cultures until there is a serious level of legal and economic equality where choice is truly possible. A friend of mine has been researching this issue and he has demonstrated to me a possible Ds relationship in Victorian England in the late 19th century. This is as far back has he has been able to demostrate an equal and freely entered Ds dynamic not burdened by legal, economic, religious, or social obligations and expectations. Being trained as a historian, too, he and I would examine his evidence today, me asking those hard and necessary questions and he finding evidence or admiting it wasn't there.

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 7:57:42 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

There are actually two US histories lines...the het one and the gay one.


Jack Rinella recknonized a third seperate line in his writings which was the Pro Dominatrixs.

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 8:54:55 AM   
obey1


Posts: 227
Joined: 11/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
<snip>
As a historian I have serious issues with .......anything (that) can be construed at a precusor.

I personally find no evidence that what we define as BDSM exists in most cultures until there is a serious level of legal and economic equality where choice is truly possible.


I offer you the writings of KING Solomon, the "ORIGINAL" Homey of  'KINK' and a poly lifestyle with 700 wives and 300 concubines.  His 700 wives had INSTANT economic and political equality.  His guards were castrated but could still service the women, just not supposed to bear children.  The Jews to this day are still the masters of financial slavery and kinky sexual practices.



Ecclesiastes 1:8  
All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell {it.} The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor is the ear filled with hearing.


That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.


Is there anything of which one might say, "See this, it is new"? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us.


There is no remembrance of earlier things; And also of the later things which will occur, There will be for them no remembrance Among those who will come later {still.}


I, the Preacher, have been king over Israel in Jerusalem.


And I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. {It} is a grievous task {which} God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.


I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind.


What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted.


I said to myself, "Behold, I have magnified and increased wisdom more than all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has observed a wealth of wisdom and knowledge."


And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind.


Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge {results in} increasing pain.

< Message edited by obey1 -- 3/30/2007 9:09:39 AM >

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 9:07:12 AM   
LadyMarmalade1


Posts: 103
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline 		What a coincidence, my sub sent me info about a religious group or cult, whatever you choose to call them, called Cybelians, while I was at work today.   

Apparently it is a religion of Female Supremacy, not all of the aspects of BDSM.  I didn't know anything about them until today but it seems interesting.  It began as a goddess worship (the Goddess Cybel, which makes sense), and is still around today.

check out the website: http://www.cybelianworld.com/Cybelian_History.html

But yes, as everyone else wrote, maybe the term BDSM hasnt been around for so long, but the concept and way of life I'm sure has been around since life existed.  Especially check out the Bible, there are many references that you can interpret (pretty clearly) in a BDSM sense.

Lady Marmalade

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 9:21:48 AM   
LadyMarmalade1


Posts: 103
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline 		Opps, after reading further about this group, I realize the religion has only be around since 2004.  And while the goddess Cybel was powerful and worshipped, I'm not sure how much fem supremacy was involved in that worship.

Sorry, I should have read more before I posted :)

Lady Marmalade

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 9:25:15 AM   
obey1


Posts: 227
Joined: 11/26/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, I forgot to mention that most "gentile" people had fertility cults with ritual sex and 'temple prostitutes', even male ones.  Moses was sent down from the mountain to stop an orgy......The original Olympics were a bunch of nude men and boys, etc.  Kink is existant in the Geisha culture of Japan as well as the Kama Sutra of India and Hinduism....Blood and Semen, baby.

< Message edited by obey1 -- 3/30/2007 9:30:08 AM >

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RE: History of BDSM - 3/30/2007 9:52:44 AM   
Sekhemet


Posts: 127
Joined: 7/10/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Recommended reading - Any and all books from Dr. Iwan Bloch, as you read this material you will notice other books and authors mentioned such as "walter," Spencer, Berkeley, and Ashbee to name but a few.  Follow the trail ... They can be found; it takes work, but it can be done - (eBay loves you!)

There was also a group of 3 books written at the turn of the century which were the Bibliography of Prohibited Books (Pisanus Fraxi)- in there (assuming you can lay hands on it) is much fact and further researching direction.

*yes I know there is "something odd in that list of names" ... do you?  Bet not; so do the reseach ... figure it out.
-------------------------------
So gee guys everyone knows it all, I see - I bet NONE of you know where or HOW the label DEVIANT got slapped on our collective hineys ... And to the person who said "if it's not in the recent past WHO CARES!?!?!"  Some of US care and if you DO know when, where, why or HOW this "deviant and perverse" labels managed to get where they got; I'm sure you'd laugh and be disgusted both.
People have been pretending to know all about this world for a LONG time ... and the mentallity of spewing BS in an effort to look smart, and clued in is nowhere NEAR new.
 I'm sure you "sense" the term is an insult , certainly feels like it when people say it ... but why, where, HOW did this happen and how did we get from "debauchery," to "deviant?"  If you knew I doubt you'd continue to call yourself a "deviant" or a "pervert" ... I know I no longer use the terms anyway, I have no need to pretend and fake knowledge of this, nor do I need to use terms which are INAPPROPRIATE in order to attempt to give Myself creedence, I know what is going on, I don't need to fabricate and create to look smart.  Someone else did - and you all continue to fall down at his feet and you dont even KNOW what you are doing, or who he is/was.
BUT everyone on this thread is so clever and has it nailed do they ... *laughs sadly*  Pathetic.

  Learn the history ... there is a LOT of it there, and YES it DOES matter. 
You do not decide to be a doctor but skip the classes on medicine.
You do not become a mechanic but skip out on learning and bringing tools.
You do not claim to have an interest in something you know nothing about - you learn it first and then claim an interest, and as your knowledge grows the interest should as well - Yuo do NOT become actively and avidly interested in something you just saw, you are curious about it (student), not greatly interested in it (teacher).  Or was everyone all into chess before they learned HOW to win?
Didn't think so.
So learn how to win - do some back book work, and yes ... THINK about it and put it all together but remember the context and era which people are writing from and about too ... its ALL relevant.

And what are you winning at this "game of chess?"
Your own pride, self-respect and "normalacy" ... it's worth the effort, isn't it?
XxoxX
PS - no I don't think I "know it all," but I do think most of you have hopped on a bandwagon without wheels and are trapped in a box you don't even know how it's built.  Repeating rhetoric is only worthwhile if you understand who said it first, and in what context.  And just because someone wrote a BOOK so WHAT - they're literate thats ALL it means.  DO - YOUR - RESEARCH!  And then do that back research and then when possible MEET the authors in question personally, get ALL your facts in place and take it from there, anyone can write a book, at any age and from any angle they desire, and that chosen angle will skewer the work written.  Think about that for a moment ...

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