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ORIGINAL: Aswad
Gasp. Choke. Sputter. You can't agree with me. Who will I argue with now?
You're welcome. And thanks for your own food for thought.
Thanks for the well-thought out reply and for the friendly tone.  You really gave me a lot to think about, Aswad, without resorting to anger or condescension.  Maybe i can learn to do that a little better .  Seriously, thanks and feel free to "argue" with me anytime......slave luci

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ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs


Quite honestly, when you say in reference to dominants who don't care about submissives orgasms or pleasure, "but you see, i think it does take unusual confidence to be completely comfortable (guilt-free) with "doing what they want to do." I don't think you actually agree with the concept that there are some dominants who are doing what they want to do in doing specific actions to cause pleasure or orgasms.  When you say that it takes *unusual confidence* to do what they want to do (again in reference to dominants who don't care about submissive orgasms and pleasure) it very much suggests the reverse about dominants who do care about the submissives orgasms and pleasure.  Unless you meant it also takes unusual confidence to care about a submissives orgasms?

I am barely able to watch the thread, so this will (hopefully and probably) be my last post on this thread, the purpose again was to point out in your linguistic and word choices how your opinion seems pretty clear on the subject.

C~

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ORIGINAL: velvetears

Isn't it a kind of "romanticised" notion of slavery when one can say my needs are at the whim of my master whether he sees fit to meet them or not, when in reality if he doesn't the slave would die?  Obviously everyone has needs - obviously they have to be met for life to be sustained - it just sounds dramatic and extreme to voice it in the sense that - i have needs but it is up to my Master to see if they are met, i am not entitled to have them met, they are at masters whim.... -yes its easy to say this when you know darn well they are going to be met! LOL... Not sure if how i am explaining it is making any sense lol... am getting sleepy here   This just doesn't feel honest to me - if i can give you a visual: dog on a chain sees bigger and badder dog not on a chain - smaller dog on chain barks, growls, and pulls and tugs at his chain cause he appears to want to break loose and jump the other dog.... gee too bad that chains hoding him back lol.  Maybe i think too concretely to ever understand these kinds of exchanges and ideas?

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ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
i think it was slaveluci (or maybe mistoferin, short-term memory's not a strong point) who said that if she had heard or read some of the things i state about slavery when she was a newbie, she would have basically run screaming in the other direction
it was mistoferin but i certainly agreed.

well, if when i was a newbie i had heard all of these million and one definitions and concepts of slavery and submission, that every minute thing was up to individual intrepretation and that there was no concrete idea of anything, i would have run away myself, muttering "what kinda confusing malarky is this?" as i went.  instead, fortunately, i was introduced to the lifestyle largely through an online/offline group which was focused specifically on slavery, and where, tho everyone and every relationship was unique, all shared the basic foundation of slave=this, submissive=this
You know what?  i get this.  i don't agree for me, but i do understand what you're saying.  i hope you can understand why mistoferin and myself and perhaps others feel the way we do about why we would have run off screaming.  It really is so different for everyone.     

anywho...enough rambling. as for your belief that it is dramatic or romanticized for a slave to state that it is solely up to their Master whether or not to meet their needs, even those necessary for life, well for you that may be so, but when i say such things it's as much a reminder to myself as much as it is a statement to everyone else. no i do not consider it a "given" that my Master will meet all of my needs, just as i do not consider it a given that he will never do anything to intentionally harm me or damage me emotionally. He has done a very good job of drilling into my head, and even showing me at times, that every single thing is a privilege and that i can take nothing for granted.
Well, after post after post after post on that subject, you know how i still feel.  BUT....i had a bit of an epiphany, if you will, last night after reading Aswad's posts and exchanging messages.  For all the ways in which you and i totally disagree, what really matters is how we each meet our own Master's standards of what a slave is, right?  i don't have to meet yours and you don't have to meet mine, we each have to meet HIS - our respective Masters'.  i know it seems like such a "duh" moment, but something about the way Aswad said "why do you care about measuring up to her standard if you measure up to your own?"  Exactly!  So, as long as each of us lives up to what our own Master's desire, why should we spend time debating it?  i could never suit your master and you could never please mine but thank God, we don't have to worry about that.  So, even though i stand by nearly all of what i've said, i do wish it had been less emotional and sharp at times.  Now, i'm looking at things from a fresher perspective and i hope that in future debates (and i'm sure there will be some ), i'll try my best to keep that in mind.   Blessings.............luci 

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

You were the one who said you are a slave yet in the same breath you are talking about your needs.  Do you understand that a slave has none?  Your basic argument with her is about wanting your needs fulfilled as she has said she has none.  How can you argue the two?

minnetar

Whoa, now granted that there are some slaves that for whatever reason may have a different mindset than another.  I'm a slave to my Master and I do focus on his needs, but that doesn't mean that I don't have them as well.  There are times when my needs outweigh his.  Like when I'm in a cluster cycle of migraines.  Then Master understands and has ordered me to rest at times.  Other times it's just understood that when I'm not feeling well I get to slack off.  But to say that a slave doesn't have needs is BS.  It is an individual thing.  And what is one's reality may not be anothers but to say that someone isn't a slave cause they don't fit your mold is wrong.

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ORIGINAL: dawntreader
Are there any awards being given to those that have read every post in 14 pages?
Yes, you get a gold medal that says, "Wow, you really ARE a masochist!"..........luci

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It was also to acknowledge that while there is nothing particularly wrong with a Dominant making his sub/slaves orgasms priority, personally I wouldn't be interested in a long term relationship with such a ma

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ORIGINAL: velvetears

Isn't it a kind of "romanticised" notion of slavery when one can say my needs are at the whim of my master whether he sees fit to meet them or not, when in reality if he doesn't the slave would die?

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Obviously everyone has needs - obviously they have to be met for life to be sustained - it just sounds dramatic and extreme to voice it in the sense that - i have needs but it is up to my Master to see if they are met, i am not entitled to have them met, they are at masters whim....

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-yes its easy to say this when you know darn well they are going to be met! LOL...

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This just doesn't feel honest to me - if i can give you a visual: dog on a chain sees bigger and badder dog not on a chain - smaller dog on chain barks, growls, and pulls and tugs at his chain cause he appears to want to break loose and jump the other dog.... gee too bad that chains hoding him back lol.

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Maybe i think too concretely to ever understand these kinds of exchanges and ideas?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Thanks for the well-thought out reply and for the friendly tone.  You really gave me a lot to think about, Aswad, without resorting to anger or condescension.  Maybe i can learn to do that a little better .  Seriously, thanks and feel free to "argue" with me anytime......slave luci

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ORIGINAL: dawntreader

Are there any awards being given to those that have read every post in 14 pages?

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ORIGINAL: tricia

dawntreader, I'm not sure about you - but i've read some twice - just trying to figure out at times where it all went so terribly wrong :)

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: velvetears

Isn't it a kind of "romanticised" notion of slavery when one can say my needs are at the whim of my master whether he sees fit to meet them or not, when in reality if he doesn't the slave would die?

It might appear somewhat romanticized until one considers that such a consequence is also, strictly speaking, at the whim of the owner, unless there are terms attached to his/her property; although the law generally doles out some punishment for it afterwards, there have been instances where this has happened, even in the west.

i understand any dom would not want to pay the consequence (jail) for allowing or being responsible for his slaves death, but there are other ways to "kill" a slave besides allowing her life to end.... some maybe even worse then actually physical death. 

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Obviously everyone has needs - obviously they have to be met for life to be sustained - it just sounds dramatic and extreme to voice it in the sense that - i have needs but it is up to my Master to see if they are met, i am not entitled to have them met, they are at masters whim....

Sure, anything can sound extreme to anyone. EBM can sound extreme to many, for instance. People draw their lines of consent in different places, and they have their expectations with regard to where their Doms will be drawing theirs as well.

What is EBM? 
 
i understand the notion of a slave having her masters limits - this makes sense if you are a no limits slave, to find a master who matches up with you... but people change.  Two people who think they have talked about everything that could possibly happen or occur or come up as possible tasks, assignments, requirements, etc, may, down the road, change preferences, or the dynamic may change and the Master doesn't have the same level of affection/love/responsibility for the slave... so many things can happen that cannot possibly be taken into account.  The master can suffer a brain injury, or get a viral infection that affects his brain leaving him with a personality change.....  i guess, or at least would hope, many would allow common sense to overide their slave committment and they would take measures to protet themselves from any permanent harm. 

I always try to make sure people's expectations about where I will be drawing my lines is congruent to where I actually draw them, so they understand the implications of what they agree to. If someone wanted to give themselves to me with no conditions attached, I'd require a mental health professional to attest that they understand the implications.

He or she would probably commit you LOL.... but i do understand what you are saying - you want no surprises popping up at you. You don't want any slave biting off more then they could chew.

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-yes its easy to say this when you know darn well they are going to be met! LOL...

Of course. But applying "know" to it, rather than "trust", is dangerous, IMO. The M one signs up with can change, as can the laws in the area. Up here, one M cut off a finger on one of his slaves, for which he got a slap on the wrist, since she had given consent to that kind of treatment. I'm thinking she might be a bit more careful about making an assertion that her health needs will always be met, regardless, compared to the those of us who could never imagine an M doing something like that.

Good point, trusting someone is more important then just knowing them or what their expectations would be of you, but i take for granted trust would be there , or why would a slave even consider it. 

For me, it's always been about trust. The trust to give another person the right to make those choices as they see fit. Whether the person actually will is beside the point; if you put the right in their hands, that fits the dictionary definition of slavery; if you don't, that doesn't fit the dictionary definition. Some people live by the dictionary definition, most do not. We still apply the word, with individual definitions. Whether doing so is valid or not is an ancient linguistics debate that we shouldn't get into here.

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This just doesn't feel honest to me - if i can give you a visual: dog on a chain sees bigger and badder dog not on a chain - smaller dog on chain barks, growls, and pulls and tugs at his chain cause he appears to want to break loose and jump the other dog.... gee too bad that chains hoding him back lol.

Actually, you need to know how to interpret what the dog is saying. If he's saying that he's scared (the usual thing), then he's just trying to warn off the bigger dog, as well as letting you know he's scared. If, on the other hand, he's saying that he wants to have a go at the other dog, he'll take it if you let him go. Of course, he'll be on his back with his tail between his legs in no time, usually, but that's a different matter.

Not sure I got the analogy, though.

Too many variables in that scenario to make it clear, sorry about that. My meaning was - anyone can seem extreme when they have set the conditions in their life where they know they aren't in any real danger.  For instance, the slave might say for example " i would die for my master, kill for him, steal for him, etc" (extreme action)by making sure they find a master who would never allow them to do those things they can say they will do anything at all, knowing all along they are really safe.  Not sure if i explained it well. The dog  example was about the barking chained dog "acting" like he wanted to rip apart the unchained dog because he knew he was safe from really being able to do such a thing. Hope i made it more clear

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Maybe i think too concretely to ever understand these kinds of exchanges and ideas?

I can't be the judge of that, particularly since I tend to think abstractly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears


i would say for 100% that would be air, food, water - and on another level, not directly related to physicaly sustaining life sexual release and expression would come into play.  Many subs/slaves would "die internally/spiritually/emotionally" without sexual expression and release. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i understand any dom would not want to pay the consequence (jail) for allowing or being responsible for his slaves death, but there are other ways to "kill" a slave besides allowing her life to end.... some maybe even worse then actually physical death.

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What is EBM?

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i understand the notion of a slave having her masters limits - this makes sense if you are a no limits slave, to find a master who matches up with you... but people change.

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Two people who think they have talked about everything that could possibly happen or occur or come up as possible tasks, assignments, requirements, etc, may, down the road, change preferences, or the dynamic may change and the Master doesn't have the same level of affection/love/responsibility for the slave... so many things can happen that cannot possibly be taken into account.

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The master can suffer a brain injury, or get a viral infection that affects his brain leaving him with a personality change.....  i guess, or at least would hope, many would allow common sense to overide their slave committment and they would take measures to protet themselves from any permanent harm.

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He or she would probably commit you LOL....

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but i do understand what you are saying - you want no surprises popping up at you. You don't want any slave biting off more then they could chew.

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Good point, trusting someone is more important then just knowing them or what their expectations would be of you, but i take for granted trust would be there , or why would a slave even consider it.

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Too many variables in that scenario to make it clear, sorry about that. My meaning was - anyone can seem extreme when they have set the conditions in their life where they know they aren't in any real danger.

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ORIGINAL: velvetears

And no limits slave is out of the realm of my understanding - i just cannot wrap my head around it. Maybe one day i will understand. 

i hope things worked out for you and you all are in a happier place now :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

You were the one who said you are a slave yet in the same breath you are talking about your needs.  Do you understand that a slave has none?  Your basic argument with her is about wanting your needs fulfilled as she has said she has none.  How can you argue the two?

minnetar