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o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.,¸,... - 5/28/2004 10:34:30 AM   
MistressDREAD


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o====·.,¸,.-·< ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂL o====·.,¸,.-·<
o===·.,¸,.-·< sniffing out legal news of BDSM interest o===·.,¸,.-·<
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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/28/2004 10:43:55 AM   
MistressDREAD


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quote:

Court upholds conviction in Cherry Hill dungeon case
by staff writer
The Courier Post (New Jersey)
May 26, 2004

The state appellate court has upheld the conviction of a Cherry Hill
couple who pleaded guilty to promoting prostitution, admitting they
operated a sadomasochistic dungeon in a home.

Dorina Pizio, 53, and Martin Hunsinger, 57, formerly of the 1100 block of
West Valleybrook Road in Cherry Hill, pleaded guilty to a third-degree
charge of promoting prostitution in October 2000.

They were each sentenced to two years probation. They admitted they
charged fees in exchange for providing sadism, masochism, bondage,
domination and submission, cross-dressing and infantilism services to
patrons who derived sexual pleasure from the activities.

http://www.southjerseynews.com/issues/may/m052604k.htm

NOW MIND YOU THERE WAS NO ACTUALLY SEXUAL CONTACT IN THIS CASE JUST THE FACT THAT THE PATRONS GAINED SELF SEXUAL PLEASURES FROM WATCHING SUCH NON SEX ACTS. SO ONE DOES NOT NEED TO TOUCH A BODY IN ORDER TO BE CONVICTED OF PROSTITUTION OR RELATED ACTS AND JUST HAVING A SEXUAL TURN ON AND PAYING FOR THE RIGHT TO WATCH A SHOW THAT GIVES SUCH SATISFACTION CAN BE DEEMED WRONG BY SOCIETY NEW LAWS PUT INTO EFFECT. SAD

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/28/2004 1:52:43 PM   
proudsub


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quote:

The state appellate court has upheld the conviction of a Cherry Hill
couple who pleaded guilty to promoting prostitution, admitting they
operated a sadomasochistic dungeon in a home.


Were any of their patrons also convicted MistressDread?

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/28/2004 9:52:54 PM   
Estring


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The fact that they charged money and did this out of their home I think made a difference in this case. And two years probation is hardly getting the book thrown at you. There are many dungeons that operate here in Los Angeles with no hassles from the law. They are businesses run in business zones. They aren't run out of a house in a residential area. I'm sure the police got complaints from the neighbors about noise, traffic, etc. That's how the cops find out about these things. This couple were not very smart in my opinion.

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/28/2004 10:07:52 PM   
GoddessMarissa


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You know it's funny, in Vegas they wont alow anyone to have a dungeon were Dommes can work out of. I'ts to much competition with the brothels. they have tried but brothel owners thow a fit and it never last long. The laws out here are so different compared to other states.

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D/s makes the world go round~~
www.Domina.ms/love

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/28/2004 10:27:43 PM   
Estring


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Lol, that is pretty funny Marissa. I guess we wouldn't want a little kink invading the wholesome atmosphere in Vegas huh?

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 7:06:52 AM   
MizSuz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessMarissa

You know it's funny, in Vegas they wont alow anyone to have a dungeon were Dommes can work out of. I'ts to much competition with the brothels. they have tried but brothel owners thow a fit and it never last long. The laws out here are so different compared to other states.


Marissa:

It's often a state or county thing. Clark County (Vegas) doesn't allow prostitution. It's my understanding that the State of Nevada defines floggings and other S/m activities to be sexual acts, therefore it's not allowed for pay in Clark County. Leave Clark county and, if what I've been lead to believe is true, it's all good. Just know that Nevada sees it as prostitution whether you are having other kinds of sexual contact or not.

Other states don't allow S/m because in their state it is not possible to consent to assault (I believe Massachusetts uses this model).

The sad truth is that this country is seeing a resurgence of the extreme right and until it swings back in the other direction things like this are a crap shoot. More so than they have been in recent years.

I know of commercial dungeons in New Jersey that do not get any grief from the police. As mentioned here, they are commercial spaces in commercial zones and there is no sexual gratification (as advertised). The general population in New Jersey often rises up about BDSM, though. Ask the people who organized the TESfest in Jersey a few years back. Cross the river into NYC and you won't be bothered (as long as you're not selling sex by NY's definitions).

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 1:06:22 PM   
MistressDREAD


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actually Suz in this case
there was no sexual activities
going on either it was a private
spank fest and the pay was for
membership into the couples dungeon
and munchie group. there are very
few munchies and dungeons that are
public and held on commercial property
compared to the private ones
when busted however when
in court the owners were asked
if they felt that their patrons got
off on seeing such things and they
answered yes and this is what got
them the sentance. No matter if
a private party in a private home
or a public party in a business section
the laws are a changen as are the views
of the governing bodys and what you
might of gotten away with today will
be your demise tomorrow. The point
here I am trying to make is that We all
define here as adults I beleive what sex
is and is not in BDSM play and the act of
practicing S/m or even B/D is now getting
a bum rap and people being led away to
the pokie for doing sumthing as simple
as sitting watching another person spank
an adult concensually. Is it just Me or do
others find this terribly infringing on the
peoples constitutional rights? oooh and
proudsub that is a very good question and
one I know the answer to BUT I also think
this would be a absolutly great assignment
for a subbie to take on ~hint hint~ and find
out just what happen in the details of this
Lifestyles plight... in the mood to take on
a challenge?? ~smiles~ ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂL
super sniffer investigator!

(in reply to MizSuz)
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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 4:58:45 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
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From: Washington
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quote:

oooh and
proudsub that is a very good question and
one I know the answer to BUT I also think
this would be a absolutly great assignment
for a subbie to take on ~hint hint~ and find
out just what happen in the details of this
Lifestyles plight... in the mood to take on
a challenge?? ~smiles~ ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂL
super sniffer investigator!


Assignment accepted MistressDread, but i will need some time, we have houseguests for another week.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 6:47:08 PM   
Estring


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They received 2 years probation. Like I said, they certainly didn't get the book thrown at them. And I would bet that the reason they were caught in the first place, is they created a nuisance in the neighborhood. Once the cops were alerted, well... busted. I doubt very seriously if they had been smarter in handling the parties, and not been charging people, things may have turned out differently.
As much as you would like Dread, this lifestyle isn't going to become accepted or mainstream. The cops aren't going to look the other way if alerted. You need to be smart and discrete.

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 9:05:59 PM   
proudsub


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From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

And I would bet that the reason they were caught in the first place, is they created a nuisance in the neighborhood.


The article i just read said a child drown in their pool and this led to an investigation of child abuse and the dungeon was then discovered.

I've done a little resarch MistressDread but haven't found the answer yet.

< Message edited by proudsub -- 5/29/2004 9:06:54 PM >


_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 9:11:32 PM   
MistressDREAD


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very good start proudsub

Estring
are We on the same side?
LOL

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 9:19:37 PM   
MistressDREAD


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Abusing Electronic Communication and the First Amendment:
Combating Electronic Harassment, Threats and Cyberstalking

Daniel G. Pinegar University of Iowa – College of Law (2001)


I. INTRODUCTION
Ever since man developed its language skills, individuals have used that ability to communicate to harass and threaten others. The advent of various technologies and electronic communication will only expand the scope of harassment, threats and stalking. Indeed, electronic harassment, threats, and cyberstalking may well be “the crime of the 21st century.”[1] With an increasing 90 million people in the U.S. who log onto the Internet, the criminals of yesterday likewise will increasingly ride the wave into tomorrow.[2] Nearly 30 percent of the complaints to the “Web Police” in 1998 involved harassing or threatening electronic mail (e-mail), a three-fold increase over the reports from 1997.[3] Despite any Constitutional or First Amendment protections,[4] with just a simple click of a button,[5] an e-mail can become a surgical attack on an individual, class of persons, or location.[6] The damage will already be done. Increased anecdotal reporting by the media suggests that the medium is becoming merely another stage to harass, stalk, or threaten.

A student can leave a bomb threat about his school in an Internet chat room,[7] or, after traditional violence, a copy-cat can send an instant message implying continued violence.[8] An employee can harass his employer.[9] A racist can send death threats through e-mails.[10] An estranged lover[11] or fan of a celebrity can virtually maul another with cyberstalking.[12] One’s family can be threatened.[13] A person can threaten harm to a building or roadway.[14] While persons can write obscene rape fantasies and post them on bulletin boards,[15] threatening to act on them,[16] or encouraging others to act on them.[17] Simply, any threat or harassment scenario can be duplicated or intensified in the electronic sphere. In one survey of college women[18] who reported they were stalked in an academic year, 24.7 percent were stalked electronically by e-mail.[19] As a result of the abuse of new electronic communications, in major cities like New York and Los Angeles, police and district attorneys have formed special technology stalking and threat assessment teams who estimate an even higher percentage of their caseloads involve “cyberstalking-type cases.”[20]

Unfortunately, both the victim’s and law enforcement already face steep learning curves. Victims suffer because the anonymity that the early information age and items like e-mail affords people[21] allows these suspect behaviors to only increase, causing greater alarm, fear, and manipulation.[22] Likewise, because of a more wary social climate and the easily recorded nature of an electronic transmission,[23] police and authorities will more frequently be urged by the victims to act in areas that require fine lines to be drawn between Constitutional freedoms and illegal activities in areas that many in the police community still do not treat as “credible threats” [24] or within their jurisdiction.[25] As a result, the concern with this “crime”[26] and the challenges it presents[27] will only continue to grow.[28]

In an effort to aid prosecutors in combating these allegedly illegal actions, this note will examine an array of state and federal statutes that many prosecutors have used with varying degrees of success. In addition to these statutes, this note will examine the relationship of punishing any electronic harassment, threat or cyberstalking ‘episode’ in light of the difficult constitutional analysis of the First Amendment and the “true threat” doctrine. Finally, even if the prosecutor can theoretically satisfy both the statutory and constitutional burden to convict, it is important to recognize that electronic evidence is still causing practical evidentiary problems in the courtroom.[29]

Like any problem that migrates into a new medium, confused reactions to it often negate the ease with which it can be addressed. Although there have been a few attempts at describing the issue of what occurs when threats and harassment move into electronic mediums of communication,[30] while providing rich sources and examples, none has adequately discussed the gamut of criminal statutes available to combat the problems of electronic harassment, threats and cyberstalking nor adequately segregated these three legal problems.[31]

A) Conventional Harassment and Threats



At the analytical level, it is important to distinguish harassment from threats. Depending on the definition contained in the particular statute,[32] harassment can include any words, actions or gestures that tend to annoy, alarm or verbally abuse another person.[33] Varied definitions of harassment result in either a broader or narrower categorization of punishable speech.[34] Unlike harassment, threats are more than just annoyances.[35] Black’s Law defines a threat as a “communicated threat to inflict physical or other harm on any person or on property” – the emphasis usually being physical in nature.[36] While Merriam-Webster defines “threaten” as “to announce or forecast impending danger or evil.”[37] Simply, threats should be treated as more serious because of the objectifiable nature of potential future action on them.

Threats can be classified into three groups: (1) direct/explicit, (2) wholly indirect/implied, or (3) indirect but accompanied by other evidence. The most easily prosecuted threat is an explicit declaration – “I will kill you.”[38] For example, an anti-Semitic death threat sent by a student to his Jewish science teacher clearly falls in the first explicit category.[39] The indirect threat or a threat made in jest yet heard and reported out of context are the most difficult to prosecute. Of course, between the two extremes lies the spectrum of threats that prosecutors must weigh a variety of factors before prosecuting because of the Constitutional protections afforded to speech. The key is the declarant's intent. Should corroborating evidence such as a prior act or pattern of actions demonstrate that the person making the threat intended it or is likely to follow through, then the scale of a likely prosecution should slide upward toward conviction because the level of protection that the speech is given slides downward.[40]

The law on communications threatening physical violence began to change in the 1930s following the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby and the use of the U.S. mail to communicate the kidnapper’s demands and threats.[41] Congress enacted and has since amended 18 U.S.C. Section 875 – Interstate Communications.[42] In addition to satisfying the statutory elements of Section 875, however, to constitute a criminally punishable threat under the Constitution it must also be a “true threat.”[43] In United States v. Watts, [44] the Supreme Court established this standard stating that, “what is a threat must be distinguished from what is constitutionally protected speech.”[45] Arguably, however, because of the factual dissimilarity between Watts, laced with political speech in a 1960s protest,[46] and expanded requirements of the “true threat” doctrine beyond political hyperbole by some circuits, the scope of the true “true threat” doctrine must be called into question.[47]

Although in the notoriously publicized case of U.S. v. Jake Baker,[48] the court relied on the “true threat” doctrine to acquit Baker[49] I argue that the “true threats” doctrine should not be applied with its former stringency to electronic forms of harassment or threats but limited to political discourse containing threats. Instead, any electronic threat must be assessed for safety purposes in the light of contemporary community standards. Justice Stevens has recently supported this initial assessment in questioning whether a “true threat” doctrine even exists in application to electronic harassment or threats.[50]

B) Electronic Harassment, Cyberstalking & Threats



What makes electronic communication useful is that it turns a world of individual resources and information into a simultaneous web of resources and information. Whereas once you had a few means of information gathering, now you have millions. But on the other hand, whereas once you could get untangled from a few lines of information, now you have millions.[51] Thus, a person can mask his identity by connecting to the web and through a variety of relay nodes, information servers, and re-mailers, protect their identity while still reaching their target.[52] After all, it was this principle of redundancy that the Department of Defense necessarily sought to preserve in creating ARPANET.[53] But if you want to make a telephonic threat you cannot make a phone call and easily connect to another phone to mask your identity while still contacting your target.[54] The best one can do simply using the phone is to alter one's voiceprint, block one's name on the recipient’s caller id unit, or enact a line-modifier that would indicate the call is coming from elsewhere.[55] But these methods would not stop law enforcement from either finding or prosecuting perceived serious cases.[56] Hence, electronic communications can be much more potent.

Although the words behind a harassing statement or threat may be the same regardless of the medium, the precise form that the statement takes in the medium of the Internet is important.[57] Generally, these statements are either private communications[58] or public communications.[59] For instance, although the context and circumstances of any statements must always be analyzed, an implied threat of “I wish I could kill you” may have a different meaning depending on its form: whether it is sent in a private e-mail, instant message or posted more publicly.[60] Indeed, “flaming in private [e]-mail may be the equivalent of illegal telephone harassment, while flaming in a public news group or discussion board may be defamatory.”[61] Although each medium has its own quirks, and may be scrutinized differently, without a doubt e-mail has become the predominant medium abused by the cyber attacker.

What e-mail does, however, is that psychologically it provides the sender with the sense that “there will be no ‘real world’ consequences” and that anonymity is be virtually guaranteed.[62] Indeed, “people park their inhibitions when they get online.”[63] At the same time, although it may be harder to trace a sender or e-mail, the mere medium used does not affect the result achieved from the harassing or threatening electronic communication.[64] As a result, prosecutors must be aware of both (1) the anatomy of an e-mail[65] and (2) how the electronic medium and the message are governed by current law.

First, every e-mail that a person sends and receives has two important components: (a) what the reader and sender can see, and (b) the trail that the e-mail creates. The reader and sender can usually see only the header and text of the message. The header contains either the real or false e-mail address of the sender, perhaps a title or name to accompany the address, a correspondence copied to (CC:) line, and of course the subject line.[66] The second part of the e-mail is the trail it leaves behind. By analogy, the trail of “snail mail”[67] includes the envelope, date stamp, zip code, bar code and return address. Similarly, an e-mail’s source code is necessary to trace the time and date of the last source transmission. It is only with this source code or “fingerprint” that the actual computer of the sent e-mail can be found. Nevertheless, even if the originating computer is found, finding the originating individual is different and can be a much more difficult quest when a public computer is used.[68]

Second, originally electronic communication and use of e-mail was conducted exclusively through telephone lines. Thus, the prosecutor should first examine each state’s existing telephone harassment and threat statutes.[69] However, as technologies progress, new ways to communicate will continue to emerge, such as with cable or DSL, bypassing otherwise broad “wire” laws.[70] While some current harassment or threat statutes have been modified,[71] and others may be cross-applied regardless of the medium, most statutes are limited to the medium specified – usually the telephone.[72] Consequently, to better provide a legal remedy against electronic abuse, prosecutors must use a variety of pre-dated state and federal statutes with greater efficiency in their packaged criminal charges.[73] One such packaging that failed to produce results clearly occurred in the Baker case.

C) The Jake Baker case[74]



A statute increasingly used to supplement gaps in existing state and federal law, 18 U.S.C. § 875(c), gained unwanted notoriety in 1995.[75] It was then that the statute meant to protect and punish communicated threats was applied for the first time to electronic (Internet) communications in interstate commerce.[76] However, despite numerous social or political reasons why people wanted the Defendant to be punished for his electronic speech, the Sixth Circuit held that a series of e-mails containing interest in causing violence to another person was not a “communication containing a threat”[77] because the intended recipient of the e-mail would not personally be threatened.

The case began when a student at the University of Michigan, Jake Baker, wrote several “fictional stories”[78] and posted them on a Michigan University Usenet[79] electronic bulletin board. Two people discovered one such story and reported its existence to the University of Michigan. In one snuff[80] story entitled, “Doe,”[81] Baker wrote in lurid detail about the sadistic abduction, bondage, mutilation, torture, sodomy, rape, and murder of a victim.[82] “For the denouement, they pour gasoline on her and then say good-bye with a lit match.”[83] The “fictional victim” whom the story was named was a female classmate.

After University authorities discovered that the author of Doe and the victim were both University students, they visited Baker’s dormitory room. Waiving his rights, Baker consented to a search of his room, computer and e-mail accounts. Baker was then arrested and charged with violating and conspiring to violate 18 U.S.C. § 875(c).[84] Although initial charges alleged criminal activity because of the stories, these charges were replaced with charges based entirely on an “e-mail relationship which would span nearly two months and include over 40 exchanges”[85] between Baker and a party named in the e-mails, Arthur Gonda.[86] Thus, although academic analysis can include these stories, the legal analysis of the case does not.[87]

After Baker was taken to court, the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan dismissed the indictment.[88] On appeal and with the efforts of the ACLU,[89] the Sixth Circuit affirmed.[90] In light of the court’s interpretation of the statute and the constitutional requirements of the true threat doctrine,[91] a second question to be asked is normative: should the First Amendment protect individuals who want to write electronic communication and send or post it freely.[92]

Of course, before answering whether the First Amendment protected Jake’s speech,[93] it is necessary to know the content of what he actually wrote in the e-mails. Central to the charges by prosecutors were e-mails that were alleged to communicate “an intent to threaten another in interstate commerce.”[94]

[Baker]: “I highly agree with the type of women you like to hurt. You seem to have the same tastes I have. When you come down, this’ll be fun! Also, I’ve been thinking, I want to do it to a really young girl first. !3 [sic] or 14. There [sic] innocence makes them so much more fun—and they’ll be easier to control.” ...



[Gonda]: “I would love to do a 13 or 14 year old. I think you are right ... not only their innocence but their young bodies would really be fun to hurt. ... [O]nce they are tieed [sic] up and struggling we could do anything we want to them...to any girl.”[95]



In another series,[96] the two discussed a method to kidnap a girl because Baker’s dormitory room was located across from the girl’s bathroom;[97] in yet another Gonda relayed information about the type of girl he'd like to “do” from the Teale-Homolke serial killings in Canada.[98]
page 1 continued......

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 9:25:32 PM   
MistressDREAD


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In the superseding indictment, the Grand Jury returned five counts that this series of e-mails[99] contained both the required actus reus (sending a communication via interstate commerce) and mens rea (the general intent to communicate that threat) sufficient to satisfy Section 875(c).[100] In a thorough opinion the lower court affirmed that this was a general intent crime[101] but nonetheless found that, “intent must be proved by, ‘objectively looking at the defendant's behavior in the totality of the circumstances.’”[102] The court then concluded that it must interpret the e-mails “in the light of foreseeable recipients of the communication”[103] – Gonda – and also that the “class” of person(s) threatened must be sufficiently particular and create an “imminent” danger to satisfy constitutional inquiry.[104] In coming to the conclusion as a matter of law in dismissing the indictment, the lower court found that, “Baker’s e-mail message cannot reasonably be read as satisfying [these] standard.”[105]

In a two-one split, the Appellate Court affirmed reviewing de novo[106] that the indictment failed as a matter of law to plead the second element of Section 875(c) outlined in the prior case, United States v. DeAndino.[107] The Alkhabez Court stated, that the “electronic mail messages between defendant and another, expressing sexual interest in violence against women and girls, did not constitute ‘communications containing a threat’”[108] under the statute, and thusly, declined to address any First Amendment issues raised.[109] The court then held, that in order to satisfy the second element from DeAndino to constitute a “threat” under the statute:

[a] communication must be such that a reasonable person (1) would take the statement as a serious expression of an intention to inflict bodily injury (the mens rea), and (2) would perceive such expression as being communicated to effect some change or achieve some goal through intimidation (the actus reus).[110]



The dissent, however, argued that this “materially alter[ed] the plain language and purpose of that section.”[111] It stated that the court had enhanced the burden of proof placed on the government in its prosecutions under the statute,[112] and “judicially legislat[ed] an exogenous element into Section 875(c).”[113] In adopting the definition of “threat” from Black’s Law Dictionary,[114] the dissent asserted that a “whenever a rational jury could find that an objective recipient of the communication would, under similar circumstances, reasonably tend to believe the speaker’s menacing words”[115] it satisfies the required elements of 875(c).[116] After addressing 875(c), the dissent turned to the Constitutional question. In contrasting United States v. Watts, the dissent argued that the lower court wrongfully dismissed the indictment on First Amendment grounds because so long as the threat against private individuals is “credible” it is devoid of constitutional protection.[117]

So, were Baker’s electronic communications protected speech or were they the exact type of electronic threat that will be the crime of the 21st century?[118] What the Baker case highlights is that the prosecutor must overcome a variety of hurdles to meet the burden placed on them – the statutory actus reus and mens rea, the constitutional requirement of a true threat, and any courtroom strategy or evidentiary problems – and the courts have at times been unclear as to what satisfies any of that burden.






II. Statutory underpinnings of electronic harassment, cyberstalking and threats



Prosecutors and courts will initially use a variety of statutes to combat electronic harassment and threats. Notwithstanding any Constitutional restrictions on state actions, “federal statutes are to be construed so as to avoid serious doubts as to their constitutionality, and … when faced with such doubts the Court will first determine whether it is fairly possible to interpret the statute in a manner that renders it constitutionally valid.”[119]

At the federal level there are two primary statutes to examine: (A) 18 U.S.C. § 875 – Interstate Communications,[120] and (B) 47 U.S.C. § 223 – The Communications Decency Act of 1996 (CDA) – Obscene or Harassing Telephone Calls in the District of Columbia or in Interstate or Foreign Communications.[121] Additionally, whenever e-threats or e-harassment include references to fire, arson, or bombs, as was the case in the Baker story, [122] other crimes may independently be chargeable.[123]

In addition to these federal statutes, there are an increasingly important number of state statutes. Although some statutes have been specifically written to combat e-harassment and e-threats,[124] others include current and modified state telephonic harassment,[125] general harassment,[126] and sexual harassment statutes.[127]



A) Interstate Communications: 18 U.S.C. § 875(c)



Until states adopt new electronic threat, stalking, and harassment laws, prosecutors will continue to fill the void to ensure uniformity with this federal statute. The relevant text of 875(c) states that, “Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”[128] (Emphasis added).

Today, the standard test to prosecute under 875(c) requires three elements as laid out by the court in United States v. DeAndino:[129] “(1) a transmission in interstate commerce; (2) a communication containing a threat; and (3) the threat must be a threat to injure the person of another.”[130] Although this section is contained in Chapter 41 – Extortion and Threats, and one of Baker’s e-mails alluded to abduction,[131] intent to kidnap or extort is not necessary to prosecute interstate threats. [132] While at one time the law was applied almost exclusively to instances of extortion stemming from its enactment in 1932, [133] the scope of 875(c) has been broadened by the courts to apply to many people who merely make threats via modes of interstate commerce, as in the Baker case.[134] Nevertheless, the simplicity of the statute is deceptive. Issues of whether a person’s speech is a “threat” [135] and the standard of intent necessary to satisfy the statute have confused and divided the circuits.[136]

(1) The Actus Reus:

The starting point of any criminal law analysis is with the criminal act or actus reus.[137] To meet the first prong of 875(c), the actus reus, one need only send the communicated intent vis-à-vis “interstate commerce.”[138] Recently, United States v. Kammersell[139] found that e-mail and electronic communications could be regulated under the interstate commerce clause. After examining the prior case of United States v. Lopez,[140] the Kammersell court affirmed the lower court and stated that an alleged threatening e-mail sent via the internet satisfied the actus reus requirement of 875(c).[141]

In Kammersell, a Utah defendant sent an instant message while on America Online (AOL) to a Utah recipient. Technically, the message traveled from the defendant’s location in Utah to AOL’s headquarters in Virginia and back again to its victim in Utah.[142] The court held that, “(1) the term, ‘transmits in interstate commerce,’ as it applied to [the] offense of making threatening communication, encompassed alleged conduct of sending threatening message via the Internet, and (2) [the] offense of making threatening communication in interstate commerce was within the authority of Congress under the [Interstate] Commerce Clause.”[143] However, the court did note one point of caution and conceded that a “different server may have a different transmission system not involving interstate transmission.”[144] For instance, if this case occurred in Virginia, and not Utah, the prosecutor would need to argue that even entirely intra-state e-communications can be regulated under the Interstate Commerce Clause[145] because the base server (AOL) is governed by the Interstate Commerce Clause in the same way that the Interstate Commerce Clause governs traditional telephone communications. As a result, current electronic use of telephone lines, cable lines, fiber optics, T1 or other dedicated lines, or satellites should all readily satisfy the first element of 875(c).

(2) The Threat:

Once the first element of interstate communication is established, the next step in the analysis is the statutory definition of a “threat.” What makes any conventional discussion of the actus reus and a “threat” more confusing than it should be is that both counsel and the courts do not always clearly distinguish between the statutory requirements and the constitutional requirements of a true threat. Simply, the statutory elements become confused with the constitutional requirements of a “true threat.”[146] As the constitutional threat doctrine will be discussed later, this statutory section on the “threat” is unfortunately intertwined with it. On one hand, the court could interpret the statutory “threat” in the narrow way that the Alkhabez court did. On the other hand, from a plain language interpretation of the statute, the dissent in Alkhabez readily argued that the words of 875(c) are “simple, clear, concise, and unambiguous”[147] such that, “ANY communication containing ANY threat to kidnap ANY person or ANY threat to injure the person of another”[148] would meet the threat requirement.[149] Thus, so long as there is a credible threat from an objective standard – determined by the jury – there is a statutory “threat.”

In coming up with its “interpretation” of the word “threat” beyond its common or plain usage as required,[150] the Alkhabez majority said that Congress itself used the word to create limitations on the applicability of the statute.[151] However, in light of both the majority and dissenting analyses, it is clear that the scope of the statutory term “threat” is limited only to that defined by the Constitution. In other words, if two circles represented the breadth of the “threat” doctrine, one for the statute and another for the constitution, the two circles will necessarily be concentric – the statute’s scope of what constitutes a threat being restricted by definition to that which can be prosecuted as a threat under the Constitution.[152] As a result, the analytical focus should rest on whether the mens rea of 875(c) and constitutional safeguards are met.

(3) The Mens Rea:

The third step in analyzing 875(c) is defining the level of culpability or mens rea proscribed by statute. Unfortunately, analyzing the mens rea of 875(c) has also created confusion and a split in circuits.[153] Because “e-mail transmissions are quickly becoming a substitute for telephonic and printed communications, as well as a substitute for direct oral communications,”[154] what constitutes a punishable message should remain consistent regardless of the medium. This is exactly the policy that 875(c) is meant to address. Here, the statutory language of 875(c) does not contain any reference to a specific intent to threaten. Generally, “when a statute does not contain any reference to intent, general intent is implied.”[155] As a result, electronic threats should be as easily prosecutable in the future as telephonic or printed threats.

The majority of circuits that have addressed the issue,[156] including the First,[157] Second,[158] Third,[159] Fourth,[160] Fifth,[161] Sixth, [162] and Tenth Circuits[163] have forcefully agreed and determined that 875(c) is a general intent crime. This means that the intent element only applies to sending the communication, not the nature of the communication and the threat element.[164] It also means that the interpretation of 875(c) is consistent with the policy of 875(c).

One way to accurately balance the Framers’ intent with the legislative intent in 875(c) and other similar statutes[165] was clearly explained in United States v. Fulmer.[166] In addressing the conflicting standards used in defining a “threat” with the mens rea of 875(c), the Whiffen Court said that “[Fulmer] set forth a clear rule that a statement constitutes a threat if the speaker reasonably should have foreseen that it would be understood as a threat by those whom it was directed.”[167] This objective standard solves the problems worried by the minority circuits,[168] discussed below, even though it does import a “subjective, hearer-based qualification into the objective, speaker-based standard.”[169] In other words, if a reasonable recipient would perceive the communication’s content as being a threat, then the mens rea of 875(c) is satisfied.[170] Nonetheless, even the Fulmer Court concluded that “whether a given statement constitutes a threat is an issue of fact for the trial jury.”[171] Accordingly, the majority of circuits have interpreted the general intent element of 875(c) as only requiring an objective standard and not an inquiry into the defendant’s subjective motivations to convict.

The Ninth Circuit, however, announced in United States v. Twine[172] its determination that more than “a mere transgression of an objective standard of acceptable behavior (e.g., negligence, recklessness)” is required to satisfy the mens rea element of 875(c).[173] Instead, the court concluded that a defendant must knowingly transmit a threat; that is, the prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant knew what he was sending was a threatening communication. Because this result stands at odds with both the majority of circuits and the policy reasons behind 875(c), it is important to understand how Twine came to its conclusion.

In Twine, [174] a defendant faced with charges of both 875(c) and 876 attempted to use the defense of diminished capacity.[175] Initially the court recognized that although both statutes were enacted concurrently, they were not written identically.[176] Section 876 contains the word “knowingly” while Section 875(c) is silent on any description of the mens rea.[177] The Twine Court came to this assessment after examining the two cases of Seeber v. United States[178] and Roy v. United States.[179] However, the court’s reasoning of both Seeber and Roy is contrary to the plain language used in the respective underlying statutes and the Ninth Circuit’s own precedent. From here, a detailed look at these cases demonstrates why the Twine Court’s conclusion is at best confused, if not entirely at a discord with the remaining circuits.

First, in Seeber a defendant convicted under 875(c) appealed a jury instruction that used the word “knowingly.”[180] Although the court said, “875 … did not define a strict liability offense,”[181] the court rationalized the inclusion of “knowingly” in the jury instruction “to insure that no one would be convicted for an act because of mistake or inadvertence, or other innocent reason.”[182] The court then stated that “875(c) … define specific intent crimes.”[183] However, this conclusion is only rational if the court includes “knowingly” as part of the statutory requirement – not merely part of a jury instruction as was the case in Seeber. What the Twine court does not spell out is why it then cites the case of United States v. Sirhan[184] for the proposition that the requirement of a specific intent applied just to “knowingly transmitted the communication.”[185] This presents two rational interpretations of Seeber and its applicability to Twine – both being contrary to Twine’s conclusion.

The first interpretation suggests that the word “knowingly” modifies only the portion of the statute dealing with the transmission of the communication as opposed to the nature of the threat, in which case a jury must separately decide if a threat is contained within communication. In the second interpretation, the court makes a jump in logic by restricting the statute’s mens rea to a higher level of scrutiny because of the inclusion of the word “knowingly” in a jury instruction. However, it does not follow that of the statute is henceforth subject to strict scrutiny because “mistake, inadvertence, or other innocent reason,” as the court stated, “implied” negligence or recklessness. [186] This is because a mistake or innocent reason can similarly imply either negligence or recklessness.[187] Despite the conclusion drawn, it is very difficult to make sense of the court’s reasoning.

In interpreting Seeber, the Twine Court also attempted to distinguish itself from its prior case of United States v. LeVision[188] where the court explicitly said that 876 is a “general intent” statute.[189] The court un-persuasively claims that this “rather refers to an intent generally to threaten as opposed to an intent to threaten coupled with an intent to extort money.”[190] If this is the case, then the court is now only admitting that LeVision’s interpretation requires only a general intent to threaten. If this is the extent of distinguishing the two cases, Twine appears to come to the conclusion that, absent an intent to extort, only a general intent is required under 875(c) – but this contradicts the court’s earlier statement under Sirhan that transmitting a threat was a specific intent crime. At best, Twine’s rationale for the requiring the higher mens rea of a specific intent is ambiguous and confuses 875(c) with 876.[191]

Second, the Roy case relied on the intent requirements of 871, not 875(c) or its sister equal 876.[192] Although the Roy court held that 871 required only a general intent,[193] Twine reasoned that the distinction was a factual one based on who the target was – the President or a private citizen – because a threat to the President more harmful than a threat to a citizen justified a lesser culpability requirement.[194] While this reasoning is rational, unlike the court’s interpretation of “knowingly” in a general intent manner as it did in Seeber, the Twine court now says that “knowingly and willfully” – now contained in the statute as opposed to merely a jury instruction – means that 871 is a general intent statute while 875(c) which does not include any mens rea requirement is a specific intent crime.[195] Depending on the time period, and this factual assessment, the same words and threat, sent to two people should make a legal difference – as the courts in no other jurisdiction have recognized this as a legal distinction. Indeed, as stated, every other circuit that has interpreted the mens rea element of 875(c) has rejected the reasoning of the Ninth Circuit.[196]

In this respect, my interpretation of Twine can be read as consistent with the majority of the circuit courts. The likely accuracy of this interpretation is consistent with the sister statute of 876 which also suggests that merely because the medium changes, from one of U.S. Mail to electronic mail, that the general intent requirement of 876 should not be mutated into a specific intent requirement. Yet, this was precisely what the Alkhabez court required merely in order to force compliance with the language in 875(c).[197]

Thus, in light of the analysis by the majority of circuits and the internal dissection of Twine, it is unclear why the Sixth Circuit chose to alter course from other Circuits or even its own former analysis in requiring the added element of intent that one must have a special intent to intimidate. Consequently, this impinges on the plain meaning of the statutory definition of “threat.”[198] As such, any circuit that has not addressed the mens rea of 875(c)[199] should consider Fulmer in light of the medium, but more so the message, and be willing to allow a jury to ultimately determine whether a criminal threat or harassment existed.[200] However, with numerous cases discussing 875, its recent application in the first two Internet and electronic communication cases (Kammersell & Baker) will only be the beginning.[201]



B) Communications Decency Act: 47 U.S.C. §§ 223, 233 [202]



When the Communications Decency Act (CDA) was passed in 1996, some heralded it as a long awaited policeman and father-figure for the Internet. However, since its inception the CDA has faced a series of constitutional challenges on the scope of what Congress believed was appropriate for the Internet and other electronic communications.[203] Following a stay pending the decision in ACLU v. RENO,[204] in April 1999, the Supreme Court affirmed CDA – 47 U.S.C. § 223 – in ApolloMedia Corp. v. Reno without opinion.[205] The statute states that:

Whoever—(1) in interstate or foreign communications—(A) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly—(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and (ii) initiates the transmission of, any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or other communication which is obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or indecent, with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another person [shall be guilty].[206]



(Emphasis added). In a declaratory action challenging the constitutionality of the CDA, the court in ApolloMedia was pressed with the issue whether the CDA’s prohibition of merely “‘indecent’ communications made ‘with an intent to annoy,’ was both impermissibly overbroad and vague, therefore violating the First Amendment.”[207]

In a 2-1panel decision ApolloMedia held that the challenged provisions and string list of “obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or indecent”[208] communications all referred only to obscenity; therefore, the CDA did not violate the First Amendment.[209] According to the court, the extra words in the statute are merely synonymous with “obscenity.” The court accepted that the string of words used to identify only obscene communications was “settled” under cases beginning with United States v. Roth.[210] Had the government argued otherwise, it would have risked having the words stricken or perhaps even the CDA declared wholly unconstitutional.[211] On the other hand, ApolloMedia argued in the likeness of FCC v. Pacifica[212] that the words bore individual meanings.[213] After examining the legislative history, the court adopted the government’s position.[214] Simply, the CDA took what was already unprotected speech – obscenity [215] – and merely reinforced the standard if such material was transmitted with intent to annoy another person.[216]

The constitutionality of the CDA was again addressed in United States v. Lampley.[217] In Lampley, the court upheld the statute’s constitutionality stating that not all speech enjoys the protection of the First Amendment and that Congress has a compelling interest in protecting innocent individuals from “fear, abuse, and annoyance.”[218]

As a result, when ACLU is analyzed along with Lampley and ApolloMedia, it will be difficult to read the CDA’s true police power of the Internet as substantive enough to cover anything but obscene messages – an unnecessary redundancy. Thus, although at first blush it appears that Baker would have been subject to penalty under the CDA for his obscene communications under any contemporary community standards, and most other senders of e-mail threats would not be subject to penalty under the CDA, the legislative history by the primary author of the CDA casts doubt even on this basic assumption.[219]

Nevertheless, notwithstanding the CDA’s substantive limitations to transmissions of obscenity, the form and clarity of the language used in the CDA is instructive and perhaps better than the language used in 875(c). For instance, 223(1)(A) clearly states that “knowingly” applies to (i) the creation of a communication and (ii) its transmission. Only then does the CDA list – with a separating clause “which is” – a substantive listing of the content of the communication, including being “obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, or indecent, with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another person.”[220] On the other hand, one area that the CDA’s form could improve on is its replacement or supplement of “telecommunications device”[221] with “any instrument used in interstate or foreign commerce.”[222] This approach would more accurately reflect future nontelephonic or other unpredictable changes in technological improvements without, as we are pushing the envelope here, forcing an old statute to conform to a new medium.

But what will the consequences be of the ApolloMedia decision and the underlying comparison with the older Section 875? Ultimately, how First Amendment cyber-rights are decided will determine the constitutional, legal, and normative scope of the most powerful medium of the twentieth century.

C) A Survey of Other Federal Statutes:



A variety of models and statutes, when describing criminal conduct, include components that apply to electronically communicated threats or harassment.[223] With an upswing in media attention toward more severe school and workplace shootings, bomb threats, and a generalized fear of terrorism,[224] prosecutors are and should be routinely examining once narrowly classed statutes.[225]

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(1) Distribution of Explosive Materials -- 18 U.S.C. § 844(e):

One federal statute deals specifically with bomb or arson threats. Section 844(e) states that:

Whoever, through the use of the mail, telephone, telegraph, or other instrument of interstate or foreign commerce, or in or affecting interstate of foreign commerce, willfully makes any threat ... to kill, injure, or intimidate any individual or unlawfully damage property by means of fire or an explosive shall be imprisoned for not more than 10 years or fined under this title, or both.



(Emphasis added). Although 844(e) still must face the constitutional test of the “true threat” doctrine, courts have decided that seemingly innocuous threats that may not be “credible” have nonetheless already crossed the line into being unprotected speech.[226] Consequently, this statute could have applied in the Baker case.

First, when the series of e-mails are considered in context -- for example, in Baker they were used in interstate commerce and through a public university e-mail account -- the threshold requirements of 844(e) emphasized are met. Second, in the e-mails, Baker indicated that the innocence of 13 or 14 year old girls made them “easier to control” such that “their young bodies would really be fun to hurt” as they “struggle.”[227] This reference reasonably, if not easily, meets the intimidation and injury requirement of 844(e). Third, as the statute only states “any individual” and does not require any particular recipient at all, the fact that Baker sent the e-mail to a third-party and not the victim becomes irrelevant. Indeed, if a third party received the communication and replied to it in the manner as Gonda had, he could nevertheless be charged with conspiracy.[228] On the other hand, the absence of the reference to fire or explosives in the e-mails might have been fatal to a prosecutor’s charge of 844(e) in the Baker case because the Baker case excluded the Doe story, which did include the references to fire. Thus, to have charged Baker with violating 844(e) the prosecutor would have needed to include the stories themselves and addressed any First Amendment constitutional issues that they raised.

(2) Interstate Stalking -- 18 U.S.C. § 2261A:

Additionally, recently signed into law was the Federal Interstate Stalking Act.[229] However, unlike the other threat or harassment statutes discussed, this statute expressly requires the stalker to “travel across a State line ... with the intent to [injure or] harass another.”[230] Had Gonda traveled from Canada to Michigan then perhaps this statute could be used to prosecute him, but not Baker. Consequently, not only does this completely fail to address the intrinsic harm caused by harassment or threats, but trying to prove intent to harass or injure another itself is not an easy task, especially when multi-jurisdictional issues are raised. Thus, because the Federal Interstate Stalking Act is limited in its application, despite the improvements made over the original statute, the proper legislative emphasis should be on the threat or harassment itself, and not any additional actions taken in furtherance of the original threat or harassment. It’s a statute that begs to humiliate law enforcement in failing to act soon enough to protect a victim.

(3) Harassment of a Victim -- 18 U.S.C. § 1514:

Other statutes pertaining to threats in specific contexts or in relation to specific responsibilities also exist in the prosecutor’s quiver.[231] For instance, 18 U.S.C. § 1514 defines harassment as a “course of conduct directed at a specific person that – (A) causes substantial emotional distress in such person; and (B) serves no legitimate purpose.”[232] Unlike the former statutes, the broad inclusionary definition appears easier to satisfy. However, the statute limits a course of conduct to a “series of acts over a period of time, however short, indicating a continuity of purpose.”[233] Furthermore, it comes into play only after a judge has already issued a temporary restraining order (TRO) on “reasonable grounds to believe that harassment ... exists.”[234] Although a component of this statute similarly includes an objective standard, because the government must first produce grounds for a restriction on speech and actions with a TRO, the utility of this statute again fails to address the intrinsic harm done by threats and harassment to the victim and again begs to be used in a Police Department public relations nightmare.

(4) The Model Penal Code:

What is clear is that sometimes what “shocks the conscience” under a common sense view may otherwise be perfectly legal.[235] For instance, the Model Penal Code (MPC) provides several statutes that one might like to apply in the Baker case: MPC § 250.4, defining Harassment;[236] MPC § 251.4, defining Obscenity;[237] and MPC § 211.3, defining Terrorist Threats.[238] Although a wayward prosecutor may eagerly apply several MPC sections in the Baker case based on what the e-mails or stories said would happen, because the acts described did not actually happen those sections would not apply: MPC § 251.1, defining Open Lewdness;[239] MPC § 212.3, False Imprisonment;[240] MPC § 212.1, regarding Kidnapping;[241] and MPC § 212.2, including Felonious Restraint.[242] Of course, the MPC is just that, a model. Consequently, the prosecutor should first examine other federal and state statutes such as those discussed above.

Simply, policy makers should take more steps, like the issuing of the Department of Justice Cyberstalking Report[243] and the President’s Executive Order 13,133 on unlawful conduct using the internet,[244] to really address the intrinsic harm that electronic threats and harassment can have on a victim, without waiting for a tangible physical harm to occur.



D) Sample State Statutes:



As highlighted in the DOJ Cyberstalking Report, to date sixteen states have enacted versions of existing statutes that sufficiently expand the scope of the existing network of state threat and harassment laws to encompass the electronic medium of communications.[245] After Michigan became the first state to prosecute an online stalker,[246] California followed with its own statute.[247] The key element to the statute is that it requires a “credible threat,”[248]

From this objective standard, the statute defines a credible threat as:

a verbal or written threat or a threat implied by a pattern of conduct or a combination of verbal or written statements and conduct made with the intent and the apparent ability to carry out the threat so as to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety or the safety of his or her immediate family.[249]



Although this statute includes and indeed focuses on the impact a cyberstalker can have on a victim though even implied threats, it also adds two elements that may not be easy to prove.

First, the statute clearly requires “the intent” to carry out the threat and secondly, the statute requires “the apparent ability to carry out the threat.”[250] This suggests that according to the letter of the statute, a person may actually trigger all of the required actus reus elements of the statute by causing great fear in an individual, but nevertheless cannot be prosecuted because of the higher culpability level. Although analytically this criticism should be headed by the state legislature, some case law suggests that despite these two culpability elements, the statute can be satisfied where the credible threat simply causes a reasonable fear - the focus being on the fear element.[251]

With this statute, California successfully prosecuted its first case of cyberstalking.[252] In that case, a person impersonated the victim in various chat rooms and bulletin boards:

where he posted, along with her telephone number and address, messages that she fantasized of being raped. [He even encouraged people to physically break down the door.] On at least six occasions, sometimes in the middle of the night, men knocked on the women’s door saying they wanted to rape her.[253]



Thus, sometimes even imperfect statutes can have ‘just’ results.

A more traditional statutory modification occurred in Connecticut, when it merely modified its telephone harassment statute.[254] Thus, now the statute says that a person is guilty of harassment in the second degree when:

with intent to harass, annoy, alarm or terrorize another person, he threatens to kill or physically injure that person or any other person, and communicates such threat by telephone, or by telegraph, mail, computer network … or any other form of written communication, in a manner likely to cause annoyance, alarm or terrorize another person.[255]



Unlike California, Connecticut’s statute has broader applicability, and would specifically address the e-stalker by excluding any “ability” requirement yet maintaining the “reasonable fear” element. Thus, while some legislative modifications of conventional statutes may be sufficient to address cyberstalking and other e-threats intra-state,[256] others are barely sufficient to address even telephone harassment.[257]

Although the California and Connecticut statutes are merely illustrative, punitive measures against the new form of old threats, harassment, and stalking are slowly becoming stronger.[258] However, the ultimate problem remains -- often one cannot invoke the protections of a threat or harassment statute until the innate harm and fear caused by an aggressor’s actions has already occurred. In most cases, authorities remain reluctant to act until a tangible (i.e., physical) threat, as opposed to electronic threat, has occurred.[259] Clearly those simple “solutions” are insufficient because the medium is different.[260] A recipient of harassment or a threat should never have to “deal with it” or “contact us when he does something more serious.” Thus, new laws must be created at both the State and Federal level to explicitly address when threats and harassment are carried out online it becomes criminal. In the mean time, old laws must be applied with the same legislative intent, as if, although the medium has changed, the message remains.






III. Constitutional Dilemmas of Electronic “Speech”



A) U.S. v. Watts[261] & the “True Threat” Doctrine[262]

A key tenant to any constitutional analysis is that the courts will always try to address a statutory question to resolve the issue to avoid addressing the constitutional issue directly or rendering an advisory opinion. Avoiding the constitutional issue is exactly what the appellate court did in Alkhabez.[263] However, the lower court found that the state did prove Baker violated the required elements of 875 and only then did the Baker court debate the issue of what was a constitutional “threat.”[264] In light of the Baker Court’s examination of the “true threat” requirement and the lack of clarity between the statute and this separate constitutional requirement,[265] the constitutional standard must be examined.

In this section I begin with the assumption that the statutory elements of 875(c) are satisfied. Further, one must have in mind the basic First Amendment structure that prohibits Congress from making any law that “abridges the freedom of speech”[266] and the liberal deference the Court has granted to the First Amendment over the years.[267] Although, the First Amendment prevents the government from proscribing speech,[268] freedom of speech has never been interpreted “to give absolute protection to every individual to speak whenever or wherever he pleases, or to use any form of address in any circumstances that he chooses.”[269] In our case, it is clear that the Constitution prohibits speech when it is threatening and creates a fear of violence.[270] However, the scope of this prohibition is what is at issue here.

The underlying question is of course when does protected ‘pure speech’ become unprotected and criminally punishable. In United States v. Watts,[271] the Supreme Court established the “standard” to distinguish between these two types of speech, stating that, “what is a threat must be distinguished from what is constitutionally protected speech.”[272] The standard that developed is the “true threat” doctrine.

The facts of Watts centered on a speech that followed a political rally in opposition to the Vietnam draft near the Washington monument in D.C. An Army Counter Intelligence Corps officer observing Watts heard him make statements to a group after the rally. Allegedly he said, “I have got to report for my physical this Monday coming. I am not going. If they ever make me carry a rifle the first man I want to get in my sights is L.B.J. They are not going to make me kill my black brothers.”[273] In response to Watts’ statements, the “crowd laughed.”[274] Nevertheless, Watts was arrested and charged under Section 871(a) – threatening the president.[275] In a six-three per curiam decision the United States Supreme Court reversed Watts’ initial conviction because the “threat” was too tenuous in nature and hence not a “true ‘threat.’”[276] Additionally, Justice Fortas and Harlan both dissented in Watts because the Court made this decision without a hearing.[277] Unfortunately, like many Supreme Court opinions, although the original opinion is not necessarily controversial or of note, because of how other courts have interpreted it the statement requiring a “true threat” has developed its own life. Some say its now doctrine.

Arguably, however, if a court would apply this “doctrine” as developed to general stalking or harassment statutes, it is not unreasonable to conclude that nearly all but the most explicit/direct threats and forms of harassment would be constitutionally legally protected speech – contrary to the historical codification of threat and harassment laws.[278] Consequently, the Baker court’s reasoning that a threat needs to be “imminent” under the true threat doctrine,[279] strictly applied, would be contrary to both the legislative intent of Section 875 and an expanded interpretation from the enunciation of a true threat requirement in Watts.[280]

However, there are several reasons why the non-“true threat” statements that led to the defendant’s acquittal should not be interpreted as a “doctrine” outside of the unique factual situation presented in Watts.[281] Indeed, Justice Stevens recently doubted whether a “true threat” doctrine even exists, and if it does, whether the doctrine should apply any differently to a threat or harassment over the telephone.[282] Likewise, I argue that the use of this “doctrine” by the Baker court and in related “threat” cases interpreting Watts has become an exercise in overbreadth. Simply, too many courts are protecting too much Constitutionally punishable speech in the name of protecting an individual’s First Amendment rights.

First, the factual dissimilarity in Watts, prefaced with the political atmosphere of the 1960s and the draft/Vietnam conflict, simply should not apply to electronic communications between private parties in non-political speech. This is because Watts, as the dissent notes, is “perhaps a trivial case because of its peculiar facts,” and also quite distinct from more modern instances of prosecuted threats and harassment. [283]

Despite the political speech context of Watts, defendants like Baker have manipulated the underlying rationale of Watts without accurately enunciating exactly what the case stands for and the factual predicates behind the rationale. There are no less than six factors that the Watts Court examined to distinguish constitutionally protected speech from unprotected speech. In my opinion, these factors are the test of the true threat doctrine. The include whether the statement or speech (1) is considered a “political hyperbole;” (2) said against the background of a “profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited;” (3) concerns “government [or] public officials;” (4) made in a particular “context” of speech in question; (5) “conditional” or imperative; and (6) the “reaction of the [objective hearers].”[284] Furthermore, there is no indication that this is an “and” test, requiring all six factors.[285]

When the Watts’ 6-part test for a “true threat” is applied in the Baker case,[286] Baker would not be protected by at least four of the rationales that protected Watts. This suggests that when the facts of Watts are dissected Baker’s statements were actually unprotected speech and true threats. Cases that deny a true threat existed without examining these factors fail to realize the factual context of Watts and the broader application of the “true threat” doctrine. Thus, courts should consider factors “such as the type of statement made, the place where it was made, how it was made, and to whom it was made” whenever citing to or relying on Watts.[287]

A second reason why the scope of the true threat doctrine is suspect is because of the various definitions given to a “true threat.” One of the more difficult objective standards of whether a “true threat” exists is found in United States v. Kelner.[288] In Kelner, the Defendant made statements during a television press conference in New York that the Jewish Defense Leagued planned to assassinate Palestine Liberation Organization Chairman Yasser Arafat during his stay in New York.[289] Using the 6-factor test of Watts to analyze his statements one can readily see that Kelner should have been acquitted. Clearly his statement appears to be a “political hyperbole,” made against a backdrop of a “national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited,” regarding a foreign “government official” in the context of the television interview in the conditional nature of “planned” because the prosecutor never showed Arafat was actually in or even going to be in New York anytime soon![290]

However, not only was Kelner convicted, but the Kelner court affirmed that a true threat exists only if “on its face and in the circumstances in which it is made [the speech is] so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate and specific as to the person threatened, as to convey a gravity of purpose and imminent prospect of execution.”[291] This is nearly a complete reiteration of Brandenburg v. Ohio,[292] as opposed to the definition of a threat cited in Watts.[293]

Even though the inclusion of the speech into some of the categories of the 6-part Watts test could be debated, including whether this indeed was a political hyperbole because other statements made clear that people had acted in preparation to kill Arafat,[294] it clearly shows how drawing such a bright line as in Kelner[295] ignores the fine lines between protected and unprotected speech under the First Amendment. Thus, arguably, at least under the reasoning of Watts, the Second Circuit in Kelner took the true threat doctrine too far and as a result overprotected unprotectable speech. Indeed, Judge Mulligan stated in his concurring opinion that the court’s “immediate” requirement of the true threat doctrine “seems to be required neither by [875(c)] nor the First Amendment.”[296]

The question that remains is how can the tougher standard in Kelner be reconciled with the test from Watts? The answer could be that Kelner simply requires too much, that Kelner doesn't apply if the statute (875(c)) requires a specific intent, or that the speech in Kelner is unprotected because of the connection between speech and action. I address each of these three synthesizing explanations briefly.

Some courts have at least agreed with Kelner’s “unequivocal” standard. In Lovell v. Poway Unified School District[297] the Ninth Circuit found a student’s statement of violence in school was a true threat using Kelner. Here the student said, “If you don’t give me this schedule change, I’m going to shoot you.” The lower court found the First Amendment protected this statement.[298] In reversing, however, the Ninth Circuit said that considered in the context, “of the violence prevalent in schools today, school officials are justified in taking very seriously student threats against faculty or other students.”[299] Thus, this statement fell under the Kelner standard as being, “unequivocal and specific enough to convey a true threat of physical violence.”[300] Nevertheless, just because the Ninth Circuit used Kelner which interpreted the true threat doctrine from Watts does that this mean either Kelner or Lovell got it right! In fact, using the 6-part Watts test in defining a true threat undoubtedly would have been sufficient to convict this student. This suggests that Kelner proves too much.

Another synthesis of the confusion between Watts and Kelner is raised in Shackelford v. Shirley.[301] In Shackelford, the court addressed the Mississippi telephonic threat statute containing a clear specific intent requirement. The court concluded that the constitutional problems of Watts and Kelner do not seem to apply where the statute already requires a specific intent.[302] This reason alone makes Shackelford sufficiently distinct in its own right as to not be precedential in the Fifth Circuit for 875(c), as a general intent crime, but may be nevertheless binding on a 47 U.S.C. § 223 claim, which clearly is a specific intent crime.

Yet a third synthesizing explanation of Watts and Kelner is found in United States v. Francis. In Francis, the court stated in dictum that “once a statement meets [the unequivocal test in Kelner], it is no longer protected speech because it is so intertwined with violent action that it has essentially become conduct rather than speech.” If one adopts this reasoning, it suggests that Brandenburg should be used whenever threatening speech becomes intertwined with conduct and Watts should be limited to applications of pure speech. Simply, the practical effect of Kelner on Watts and the threat doctrine is not to argue whether a doctrine exists, but to argue its scope. What is clear is that scholars have substantially overlooked the true threat doctrine of Watts when analyzing the protections given to speech.

Finally, a third reason why the true threat doctrine and its true scope is suspect is because of the perplexing absence of the Courts use of this doctrine in similar threatening or fighting words cases – which could equally be analyzed in light of whether a “true threat” existed.[303] Indeed, just as there are cases like Baker on one end of the non-threat spectrum, there are other cases that suggest the standard is much broader.[304] Moreover, the argument that Brandenburg supports the position that a true threat must be imminent to fall into the class of unprotected speech ignores the Court’s own reasoning of Watts – decided in the same term.[305] Thus, in light of these strong factors favoring a broader inclusionary interpretation of the “true threat” doctrine, and a clearer enunciation of the reasoning that the Watts Court used, the “true threat doctrine” should not be applied to protect nonpolitical and personal electronic forms of harassment or threats (a.k.a. unprotected speech).



B) The World of the Ever Shifting Debate

Even if courts eventually agree on the meaning of the mens reas, actus reus and what is a true threat of 875(c), the debate will likely only shift to whether the statute is written to avoid further problems of vagueness and overbreadth.[306] To preempt another debate, where the statutory elements of 875(c) are satisfied, whether these personal electronic communications are a “true threat” may need to be assessed for safety purposes. Perhaps the easiest enunciation of a safety standard that could also incorporate the 6-part Watts test comes from obscenity cases – whether in the light of the contemporary community standards an objective reasonable listener considering the speech in context would find the speech threatening. Certainly this standard could be tweaked, but with the practical effect that cumulatively threats are now taken much more seriously and are taking their toll on society it may certainly be time to legislatively reevaluate the standard.

Nonetheless, even if this battle is solved to one’s satisfaction, the debate will still shift into evidentiary problems that may hinder a successful prosecution even when the prosecutor finds a statute that can be applied to the next case involving threats.[307]

Although it is not impossible to admit electronic evidence,[308] there are several problems in trying to admit evidence of an electronic communication. There is the possibility that the defendant will deny sending the e-mail. Simply because a printed piece of paper shows an alleged e-mail is insufficient to introduce it.[309] This presents problems of relevancy and authentication,[310] the best evidence rule,[311] and hearsay[312] – as the e-mail could have either been sent by another person acting under the defendant’s name, or it could have been altered upon arrival.[313] However, until new technology and efficiency is utilized, this difficulty may create circuit splits – just in some case, injustice in others. Thus, the prosecutor should be fully aware of the special problems and thorough in her analysis to address them before the court dismisses based on them.








IV. Conclusion



“Make no mistake: this kind of harassment can be as frightening and as real as being followed and

watched in your neighborhood or in your home.”[314]



In light of the first major effort by government to address the unique challenges of the medium of electronic communication when harassment and threats go online, the final recognition that the actions pose equideleterious harms is crystallized. After the DOJ Cyberstalking Report was issued, Congress has introduced several proposals based on the DOJ’s recommendations that would make more explicit the illegal nature of harassment and threats occurring over e-mail and other electronic communicative means.[315] In the mean time, statutes like 875(c) and the provisions in the Communication Decency Act must be interpreted broadly in allowing a prosecution to go forth after presenting a general mens rea to threaten or harass another.

Perhaps one-day policy makers and courts will finally agree that speech should not be protected even if it poses no imminent danger or risk of substantial bodily injury when it would nevertheless cause a reasonable person to fear just such an action. Although the practical remedies for electronic harassment appear to be the same as those in real life – women can ask the harasser to stop, avoid places that resulted in past harassment, report violations to system administrators or the police, or ignore the harasser – they are not remedies.[316] Although these “solutions” may seem simple, and the mechanisms of electronic harassment and electronic threats can take many forms, just like conventional harassment or threats the harassment or threats often result to attacks in person.[317]

Simply, the legal and political systems need to continue to interpret and write statutes, such as how the Fulmer court indicated, and determine what is a threatening communication and what is a threatening harassing communication from a more objective hearer-oriented perspective. Indeed, in defining a “threat” according to a contemporary community standard as opposed to the legalese of a “true threat” may produce the most ‘just’ results. Until clarity is provided in this factually disturbing and politically charged area of the law, we must all understand that the computer and its attachments are more than just tools of the information age. They can also be used as secret weapons of fear, harassment and terror.
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/pinegar/LR4%28d%29.htm

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 9:28:48 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
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Status: offline
LOL
OPPPPS
at sum point
I hit a strike out
and dident even
notice it LOL
AHHHH My little
imprefections.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 9:34:33 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
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so in your opinion Estring what sumone
does in the privacy of their Own home is
not protected by the law if it harms no one
and done behind closed doors by consensual
adults?
Were You sitting on the jury
for this case Estring?? LOL It sounds like it.
heheheheheh just kidding no no but really
were Ya?? ~smiles~

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 9:37:05 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
I dont call a police record
and paying a probation
officer My hard earn money
for a whole two years weekly
getting off easy especially
when there was nothing going
on sexually nor prostitution wise.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 10:03:16 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
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NAKED BODYS NAKED CITYS

We San Franciscans like to think of ourselves as an enlightened people. When naked bottoms go jogging past us during Bay to Breakers, we point and say, "Ha, ha, ha! Only in San Francisco!" as though those wobbling tuchuses were a magic talisman keeping Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public from moving in next door and putting one of those cement geese with the little outfits out on the front step. Nonetheless, we're still a lot more likely to chance upon a Playboy pictorial featuring women playing golf, dressed in nothing but tam-o'-shanters, than we are to encounter actual naked golfers, no matter how pleasant the weather down in Golden Gate Park.

But did we not usher in the Age of Aquarius? Why is it that Berkeley had a Naked Guy and we never did? Admittedly, it's a bit chillier on this side of the bay, but so what? We could have a Seasonally Naked Guy. A Naked Guy with a little mink stole. A Naked Guy with mittens. Why is it that San Franciscans are so ready to cover their bad naked selves with glitter and dance like pixies at Burning Man but so rarely feel – or at least act on – the urge to cover their bad naked selves with glitter to return a video or go out for tapas?

One typical response to such questions goes along the lines of "Nobody wants to see your naked bottom sashaying down Main Street, anyway." To some, nakedness may seem freewheeling and charming; others are in no mood to watch your testicles swinging in the breeze before breakfast. And yet Main Street is bustling with activities that may or may not appeal to the average viewer. Nobody, for example, wants to see your dog in a sweater, but I don't see you getting arrested for it.

Perhaps the simpler question, while we're on the subject of arrests, is not "Is civic nakedness a good, just, appropriate, and/or aesthetically appealing activity to embark on in our fair city?" but rather "Is it legal?" This is something of a tangled issue, as it turns out, and more than enough to keep us occupied.

Your skin, and how much of it is allowed to be showing, is usually regulated at the county level – the theory being that different communities have different standards concerning which body parts are "not for sharing." That's why the amount of glitter covering lap dancers varies so much from city to city. San Francisco, predictably, heavily legislates stripper glitter, but as far as we can tell, there are no municipal ordinances whatsoever regarding not-for-profit, everyday nudity. We scoured the Police Code and found nothing. We queried the City Attorney's Office and were referred to the California Penal Code. And none of the lawyers and police officers interviewed for this story seemed to be aware of any local code.

Plenty of other cities have them. In New York, for example, women are legally entitled to be just as topless as men, which means New York could theoretically be filled with topless women wearing carpenter pants and drinking beer on fire escapes, jogging down the street with headphones on, and sunbathing in European-size Speedos on boulders in Central Park. It's not, regrettably – but still, it's legal. Is it legal here in our fair, sunny Babylon? It depends on whom you talk to.

For you see, having no laws of our own, we are forced to go by California state law, which goes something like this:

California Penal Code, Section 314: Every person who willfully and lewdly, either: 1. Exposes his person, or the private parts thereof, in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby ... is guilty of a misdemeanor.

From which text one might draw the conclusion that standing in front of the Transamerica pyramid in nothing but bunny slippers and a tiara would automatically be illegal, owing to its being a public space. Theoretically, though, you could be watering the posies in your backyard with no clothes on and be entirely within the bounds of the law. However, should a troop of Boy Scouts march past and see you engaging in pantsless horticulture, your actions would magically transmogrify into illegality – but only if said troop of Boy Scouts were offended. Or annoyed. And, because state law has traditionally grouped public nudity with things like flashing and public masturbation, if you persisted in being naked and the Boy Scouts persisted in being annoyed, you could eventually be convicted of public indecency and registered as a sex offender in the state of California, which might make for interesting conversation at cocktail parties but could make matters difficult when it comes to, say, making friends with the neighbors or getting a job involving small children.

Making matters even more interesting is the 1972 case of Chad Merrill Smith on Habeas Corpus. Nude beachgoer Smith, irate at the prospect of having to pay a $100 fine and register as a sex offender for sunning himself on a remote stretch of sand, took his case all the way to the California Supreme Court. And that august entity eventually very generously declared that there was nothing inherently lewd, or even particularly sexual, about just having no clothes on.

Despite the beach-centric nature of that case, redoubtable Berkeley lawyer Bill Simpich – who has done pro bono defense work for Debbie Moore and Marty Kent of Berkeley activist theater troupe the X-plicit Players – says that Section 314 plus the 1972 ruling make it possible to scamper around California like a little naked pixie, scattering naked dust hither and yon.

"Of course it's legal!" Simpich chortled jovially over the telephone. "In order to convict you according to state law, they have to prove that your behavior was willful and lewd, and 1972 proved that there's nothing lewd about just being naked." However, this only applies as long as you don't fall afoul of any park (state or national) or municipal codes. Or any irate citizens and respectable businesspeople who demand the police do something about your hedonism. And this is assuming you're willing to be arrested by anyone unaware of or unfazed by the 1972 ruling – and to fight your case in court.

Back in the early '90s, when Moore and fellow X-plicit Player Nina Schilling began going around in the altogether, they would carry a copy of Section 314 and organize mini-teach-ins on California state law with any officers who decided to arrest them. And Simpich won every case he took defending the Players. Until August of '93, that is, when – during a veritable heyday of civic nakedness, with the Naked Guy posing in Playgirl and even attending a Berkeley City Council meeting in the buff – the council passed a law making it illegal to be naked anywhere in Berkeley within public eyesight. (The Players continued to win some cases with the help of juries reluctant to convict a naked theatrical troupe, but they eventually received a municipal conviction in 2001.)

Interestingly enough, naked activists have good things to say about San Francisco. Kent of the X-plicit Players says his group has performed here several times and had no major problems with the police. They've hung out naked at Adobe Books and Dolores Park and were even berated by the owner of Pancho Villa Taqueria on 16th Street for dressing before coming inside to order tacos. Marvin Gordon, a Mohawked, habitually birthday-suited SoMa performance artist, also has no troubles to report, with the exception of one tense harmonica performance at Julie's Supper Club, where he was caught between an irate patron demanding he put his clothes on and an equally fervent event promoter demanding he take them off.

However, it bears considering – and repeating – that just because you might be able to ward off a conviction in a court of law, and just because a bunch of naked artists got away with it, doesn't mean you're not going to get arrested in the first place.

Simpich has neither dealt with nor heard of any public nudity cases in San Francisco, and he has demonstrated something of an interest in the matter. San Francisco criminal defense attorney Nanci Clarence, however, has been approached by a few prospective clients who were ticketed in areas like the Presidio that are managed by the Golden Gate National Recreation Area (all of them eventually decided to pay up rather than deal with the cost and effort of managing a federal court case). According to Clarence, the GGNRA's federally employed Park Police, often out-of-towners, have a reputation for getting a little testy when confronted with decadent Californians engaging in a little decadent Californian sunbathing. And unlike state park rangers, the feds don't follow the "Cahill directive" (named after former California parks director Tim Cahill), which dictates that rangers should politely ask you to put your clothes on before issuing you a ticket.

I asked around at the San Francisco Police Department whether people often get picked up for just being naked, and the answer was no, according to Lt. Gary Jimenez of the Mission precinct and Sgt. Bill Griffin of the Park precinct. It seems that nearly everyone arrested for public nudity is doing something in addition to being naked that renders them arrest-worthy. For example, the last naked person Griffin booked was not only naked but also lying down on the BART tracks. People freaking out on PCP, in particular, tend to rip off all their clothes. "Sometimes it gets too hot in their space suit," Griffin explained.

In fact, almost all the SFPD officers I spoke with volubly expressed their lack of interest in arresting your naked self. The phrase "This is San Francisco!" was indignantly and frequently used.

And indeed, parade and festival nudity continues unabated, and nobody seems to be up in arms about it: 1993, for example, was the last year anyone was arrested for running naked in Bay to Breakers.

No one at the SFPD, however, seemed to be interested in giving his or her wholehearted stamp of approval to your jogging pants-free into the sunset, or even into the Safeway on Church and Market Streets, for that matter. The consensus: a warning would be issued previous to any arrest attempt. A few officers admitted that a complaint about, say, naked sunbathers on the roof of an apartment building was unlikely to be followed up on unless traumatized children were somehow involved. It's also useful to remember that, since nudity is a misdemeanor offense, an officer actually has to see you naked in order to arrest you or write you a ticket. So if you're a speedy dresser (like the clever Bay to Breakers participants who chose to cover up before crossing the finish line), you might not get into any trouble at all.

All of which, admittedly, puts anyone devoted to the concept of civic nudity in a quandary. Much is forbidden, but few are arrested, and some of it isn't exactly illegal, but only if you can prove it in a court of law. One day you might skateboard down Market Street in nothing but a turban made of bubble wrap, and everyone would just point at you and say, "Ha, ha, ha! Only in San Francisco!" Possibly tourists would snap your picture to show their relatives in Des Moines. Another day, you might be instructed by a member of the SFPD to clothe yourself immediately – and get hauled down to the jailhouse if you declined.

The general guidelines seem to be as follows: In most semi-private situations, like a rooftop or a backyard, chances are good you can let your freak flag fly as long as the weather holds. Certain nudity-ghetto parades and street fairs have proved to be pretty much a free ride to unprosecuted pantslessville in recent years, but you might not have the same luck at the Fillmore Block Party that you would at the Folsom Street Fair. In public arenas like city parks or the beach, you may be asked to cover your private parts if someone brings the law down on you, and a ticketing and/or arrest will likely follow if you should choose to decline in favor of free speech and whatnot. On city streets, the likelihood of those events taking place increases severalfold. You're taking your chances with the GGNRA folks, and you probably shouldn't take it into places like Nordstrom's at all, even if you really are there to buy yourself a nice summer frock.

Consider arming yourself with Section 314 and a copy of the Chad Merrill Smith case and the phone number of a good lawyer. And until the day when your naked tuchus is entirely free and legal and everybody knows it, the most prudent course of all would be to keep a spare pair of pants handy.
http://www.sfbg.com/38/34/cover_naked_city.html

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 5/29/2004 11:01:08 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
Actually that backs up what I am saying. A child dies, an abuse investigation ensues, and you think that when the cops find a dungeon, they should just ignore it? Dread you try to make it sound like the law was out to get this people for no reason. As usual, there is more to the story. And even after the death of a child becomes part of the story, they still only got 2 years probation. What I would like to know is, were the children in the house when these parties were going on?

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 20
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