Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/7/2009 8:10:24 PM

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

Hello Ask a Mistress,
I am writing actually to particularly hear the perspective of submissive men, and I think they are pretty much gathered around the water cooler on this side of things, so I hope you will practice patience as I put out some fumbling question that has been bouncing around in my head. Of course the perspective of the ladies (and anyone else) is welcome, but the question as it pops in my head is geared toward the men.

Gentlemen,

Most societies encourage men to be alphas, to be decisive, in charge, strong, tough. Men are scorned to some degree when they are not. I am wondering how you all handle the difference between what is inside you and what society presses upon you, not merely the cognitive dissonance, but the actual physical manifestations of submission. Taking the tie off and then kneeling. How does that change take place? Is there a change? What about the interactions you have in the real world. Sure men hold the door for a woman, but what about other things? How does it work for you?

For clarification, I'd like to say that for women to be dominant does not cause such misunderstanding in me. I have seen women, docile sweet quiet women, become roaring tigers when protecting their children. So the taking charge by a woman makes sense to me. I've not really experienced a lot of submissive men, and I'd like to understand.

Any thoughts?

Best wishes to you all,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/7/2009 8:39:34 PM

Posts: 22
Joined: 4/6/2007
Status: offline

Most men are submissive... none of my male friends can stand up to their wives. I used to be outraged, since the expectation is the reverse. But images do not always conform to reality.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/7/2009 8:58:10 PM

Posts: 30
Joined: 7/27/2009
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline

Thought I'd attempt to provide some insight to a good question. No idea if I am typical or far off the norm for men who view themselves as submissive in a relationship with women so your mileage may vary.

If you met me in my public life, I think you would probably assume that I am a major type A, alpha male. I have been a "C-level" business executive, built 3-4 companies and am not the shrinking violet type (read aggressive, dominant, driven). Physically, I am relatively fit and enjoy time in the gym so perhaps not what you might typically envision as submissive.

In private, to my wife and domme, I am evolving into something quite different. I say evolving because while B&D have always been deeply ingrained in my sexual identity, the submission is something I'm enjoying more as I get older though I have no idea why. As a man, I find that I have a strong need to give up that control and responsibility that has been with me forever. The experience of giving total control to another, trusting that person with all that I am is both liberating and incredibly sexy and an amazing experiment in love and trust (something allot of men struggle with sometimes). We've evolved from light play to an on/off D's relationship that includes chastity (for me). Nothing as heavy or intense as many of the experienced people here but enough to gain a deep appreciation for the experience. As odd as it sounds, when we're off (vanilla time) I find something lacking and miss the D's dynamic very much. It simply feels like a safe foundation from which to go and do my guy thing in the "real world."

The emotional change for me takes place very naturally though we've developed a more formal trigger which is placing me in a chastity device for 3-6 months or so. I kind of feel like it is a gift that I give to my Domme which is hers alone. Initially, it was more difficult to make the emotional switch (and occasionally I've been known to slip if I'm on some alpha male power trip business deal and she happens to slide into the office ). Since my wife is not a natural Domme, the transition is probably harder for her to make but we're continuing to work it out.

In terms of the real world, I'm from the south so I was raised to treat women like ladies (open doors, yes ma'am, let me get that for you, etc.) and beyond that, the two worlds live side by side but rarely interact. I don't think anyone knows outside our relationship and I doubt anyone who knows me would even believe it. That said, I feel fortunate to be able to experience and enjoy both aspects and feel like I'm far more fortunate than many of my male counterparts who seem to have allowed the sensuality and sexual tension to escape from their marriages and lives long ago.

Hope this helps a bit.

Bound

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/7/2009 9:15:50 PM

Posts: 102
Joined: 7/19/2008
Status: offline

Please tell more.. I am enjoying this conversation and it is pleasing to me.

Lady Sunn

(in reply to bdspirit)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/7/2009 10:27:29 PM

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

Hello Bound,
I appreciate your response. This part especially:

quote:

The experience of giving total control to another, trusting that person with all that I am is both liberating and incredibly sexy and an amazing experiment in love and trust (something allot of men struggle with sometimes).

Hello Sunn,
Perhaps you might add your own perspective?

best to you all,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to LadySunn)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/7/2009 10:58:11 PM

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

I think we can consider different types of societal pressure: with respect to (1) general personality, (2) relationship dynamics perceived by others, and (3) how each person in the relationship views male submission.

The first type is what is described in the OP:

quote:

Most societies encourage men to be alphas, to be decisive, in charge, strong, tough.

First, I think society exalts alpha behavior but does not expect every man to be alpha. And alpha is defined differently by different people. Some people consider an aggressive or highly-macho persona to be alpha. By my definition, Barack Obama (someone who exudes leadership versus someone who exudes aggression and physical strength) presents a good example of being alpha.

Also, I consider whether one is submissive with respect to personality, and whether one is submissive with respect to sexuality to be two independent traits. Thus, (1) because the pressure to be alpha is not as great, and (2) because submission and an alpha personality are not mutually exclusive, I do not see this pressure to be tremendous. I do not experience much dissonance with respect to this level and consider it attached to personality, not sexuality.

For the second type (relationship dynamics perceived by others), I don't think society expects men to be the boss at home today to the extent it used to be in the past, but being subordinate or subservient is still mocked. So there is some pressure with respect to how broader society views the relationship without understanding it. This pressure is relevant simply for how much or not the relationship is practiced in front of others.

The third type pertains to how each person views male submission. Knowing that my submission is voluntary keeps me from feeling dissonance with respect to this point within the relationship--I myself do not feel weak for it. However, there is a different type of dissonance with respect to how a given woman might feel about male submission. We are a sum of difference facets and the component that creates an interest in BDSM is one component. Just as societal conditioning would tell a man he should not be submissive, it tells women to look down upon men who are submissive. Most dommes have overcome this conditioning. However, in some dommes remnants of this conditioning might remain to varying degrees. For example, some dommes consider male subs toys for play but not potential candidates to be a lover (not for sake of protocol but for sake of deeming an inadequacy). I think the role of this conditioning is diminishing with time.

Also related to this third type, most people desire some form of social challenge in their relationship independent of societal conditioning or gender. By social challenge, I mean that the absence of which affects the amount of interest for a person who always agrees or who is subservient (outside of BDSM relationships). By social challenge I mean that that is missing or is in small quantity when one can take another for granted and know that another will always bend to one's wish (outside of BDSM relationships). In the context of BDSM, the matter is different because of what creates this behavior. Still, there is a question about how much role the societal conditioning (that applies outside of BDSM) has on a given woman in an Fm relationship, and how to balance and connect with the BDSM component as well as the other components (to address the point about social challenge).

Thus, the third type creates a question about whether or not or how much a dominant might see the submissive as lesser (whether for reasons of conditioning for for reasons of social challenge), and if she does whether the degree of it creates any issue for the type of dynamic envisioned.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 12/7/2009 11:57:11 PM >

(in reply to LadySunn)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 2:02:58 AM

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

In a sense it's simple for me: I get off on the paradox.

It isn't just society that makes me want to strive and to 'win' (in my personal senses of those words) - that drive is a part of me, and one with which I'm completely happy. I don't need to homogenise my mind and my motivations. The sub and the vanilla sides of me pull at one another and that's exactly the way I like it.

People so often seem to think that one's psyche just must work best when it's free of all tension (or 'cognitive dissonance'). I don't hold to that anymore. For me, the tension produces the energy. Tension is good!

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 8:09:13 AM

Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline

i am a service oriented slave and as a nurse this is a perfect fit as i tend to the patients. as far as being a sargent in the army there is alot of emfassis on being macho and exuding testosterone that is simply not me so i just dont bother with that bit and am a very happy energetic(adhd) person. as far as the change from my daily job to being my Mistress slave i also relish it as i am freed of the worrys and concerns of everything else as She places Her formal collar on me as i kneal at her feet.

_____________________________

proud to serve the awsome
LadyPact

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 8:24:59 AM

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

I don't really see a disconnect. The alpha thing I view as more personality based rather than directly correlating to D/s. Throughout history, soldiers have traditionally been required to serve/protect, and obey the people who are in command, but are still viewed as very manly in that role.

(in reply to LPslittleclip)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 4:03:23 PM

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I know you know my opinion already Sunnyone, but honestly, personality does not equal orientation. I think of those passive Walter Mitty types, and their aventurous fantasies... how do THEY deal with not fitting the sterotype?

Anyway, where is Elan when we need some prolixity? Politesub? Pixel?

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 4:29:26 PM

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Lady H, I am looking up prolixity

Let me gather a few thoughts and I will respond.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 4:47:39 PM

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Sunshine, I know what you are getting at with your question. When I first started talking about BDSM and D/s to a lady friend of mine, it took ages before i was comfortable to use the word Mistress with her, let alone in front of others. Right from our first chat I knew she was dominant, she knew I was submissive, yet it went unsaid. I just wasnt easy within myself, mostly for the reasons you mentioned. Men were suppossed to be men and to act like men. being submissive, or at least the thought of it, turned me on sexually. Although deep inside I knew it was deeper than that, it just felt right. All I had to do now was convince myself.

Slowly, with talking to my ladyfriend and a few others, I came to accept it was okay to be who I was. The problem, as you mentioned, was how this is perceived by the outside world. Daytimes I could often be found working on the jib of a tower crane. IE, the front part that sticks out, right at the top. Not many guys on a construction site could work that high off the ground, yet somehow I still felt unmanly for being submissive. Finally i decided that I could only be what I want by not worrying about what people think. I dont go out shoving it down peoples throats, but I dont hide it if people bring it up in conversation. Some of my family know, some dont, mainly as it makes life easier. One brother thinks Im odd ( he can talk..lol ) the other is okay with it.

I guess generally, if we think differently or act and think outside of the box, so called normal people think we are odd. This is the same for either sex. I guess the problem of acceptance really lies with them and not those of us a little more flexible in our views.

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 6:36:28 PM

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I don't really see a disconnect. The alpha thing I view as more personality based rather than directly correlating to D/s. Throughout history, soldiers have traditionally been required to serve/protect, and obey the people who are in command, but are still viewed as very manly in that role.

Now that went boingggggg in my head! makes perfect sense!

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 6:54:39 PM

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

NOW do you see why I want a pet jarhead, Sunnylicious?

Plus he will be useful for odd jobs around the harem!

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 7:16:48 PM

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

Hello everyone,
You know DV's Fox is about the only submissive man I spend any amount of time with. I suppose I should have just asked him!!! Ahhh well...

Anyway, Sea, your discussion was fascinating - the teasing out of the different pieces, and I wish I could say that I have some intelligent response. But I think that would not be accurate. What I did find that resonated and made sense to me was a couple of points. As Lady Hib has said personality and (sexual) orientation do not mean the same thing. But you also said that society doesn't expect men to be "heman" as much anymore. I am not sure if I agree with that. I think society as a whole has deemed that true, but I think that women, at least a big chunk of women do even when they don't admit it to themselves. Take the romance novel industry. EVERY man is a heman! But it's like a dirty little secret to admit we read them (I do - particularly the bodice rippers set in 16-17th century Scotland. Must be a past life breaking through)...

You also said this: Knowing that my submission is voluntary... and that didn't make a hill of beans sense to me. Not because YOU don't make sense, but because I can't seem to wrap my mind around it. Are you saying that being submissive is a choice for you? Not a distinct part of your personality? I'm putting it through my own filter, and what I kind of get is... in an emergency, in a situation where somebody has to take charge, I will often do that. It is a choice for me to be dominant in that situation but in other parts of my life, particularly around someone I love (even friends or family) I will be fairly submissive. That is / is not a choice for me? I don't really know. I know that I tend to want to keep the peace. And maybe it's been ingrained in me to be that way, but I don't know ... is it voluntary? Very interesting.

Polite sub - It sounds like you are saying that being open and acting on your submissive nature was something of a coming out process for you. Acknowledgment, admission, action. Is that fair to say?

Hi Clip - You said this: i am freed of the worrys and concerns of everything else as She places Her formal collar on me as i kneal at her feet.
that I've heard before, and I understand that. I know how good it feels to be in the presence of someone else who makes the decisions. I felt like that even at work where the doctor was the decision maker. I may not have agreed, but it wasn't my responsibility. There was real freedom in that for me.

To all the folks who are responding - thank you so much. I may not understand (maybe I never will), but I do appreciate that you are so open and willing to share. I wish only the best for all of you.

sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 7:39:45 PM

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
But you also said that society doesn't expect men to be "heman" as much anymore. I am not sure if I agree with that. I think society as a whole has deemed that true, but I think that women, at least a big chunk of women do even when they don't admit it to themselves. Take the romance novel industry. EVERY man is a heman!

I think this expectation may vary. And it's possible we are attaching different meanings to heman. I think there is societal pressure to be masculine and, more so, competent. I don't feel pressure to be uber-masculine.

What do you picture when you use terms Heman or alpha?

To respond to your example of romance novel industry, let's consider the porn industry. Every woman in a porn film is, well, a porn star ;-) Society creates pressure on women to be attractive but not every woman feels she must look like a model or porn star. Similarly, men might like how a model or porn star looks but they do not all expect every woman to be a porn star or model. Similarly, I don't think every woman expects every man to be a Rambo ;-)

quote:

Knowing that my submission is voluntary...

To elaborate, I am contrasting voluntary submission (submitting because it feels good) with involuntary submission (submitting not because one wants to but because one cannot take a stand otherwise).

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 12/8/2009 7:42:02 PM >

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/8/2009 8:15:18 PM

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Ask a Mistress,
I am writing actually to particularly hear the perspective of submissive men, and I think they are pretty much gathered around the water cooler on this side of things, so I hope you will practice patience as I put out some fumbling question that has been bouncing around in my head. Of course the perspective of the ladies (and anyone else) is welcome, but the question as it pops in my head is geared toward the men.

Gentlemen,

Most societies encourage men to be alphas, to be decisive, in charge, strong, tough. Men are scorned to some degree when they are not. I am wondering how you all handle the difference between what is inside you and what society presses upon you, not merely the cognitive dissonance, but the actual physical manifestations of submission. Taking the tie off and then kneeling. How does that change take place? Is there a change? What about the interactions you have in the real world. Sure men hold the door for a woman, but what about other things? How does it work for you?

For clarification, I'd like to say that for women to be dominant does not cause such misunderstanding in me. I have seen women, docile sweet quiet women, become roaring tigers when protecting their children. So the taking charge by a woman makes sense to me. I've not really experienced a lot of submissive men, and I'd like to understand.

Any thoughts?

Best wishes to you all,
sunshine

One of the singularly best posts ever....in the entire history of the internet.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/9/2009 8:58:53 AM

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

Hi Sea,
You know I got to thinking about this last night. It seems to me that a dominant woman (generally speaking) wouldn't be looking for the "heman" kind of thing that is in my head (boy was that a d-oh! moment). Your example about porn stars (and I'll add to that actresses) was really helpful. Thank you.

As for ME, an alpha takes charge. Even in my romantic relationships. I suppose that is why I'm on the "s" side of things.

You said it really well I think with this statement:

quote:

Barack Obama (someone who exudes leadership versus someone who exudes aggression and physical strength) presents a good example of being alpha.

Also, thank you for explaining your use of "voluntary".

Best to all,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/9/2009 9:16:24 AM

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline

~Fast Reply~
This is such an interesting thread for me to just sit back and read. I've always wondered just how my submissive brothers feel inside, and if they had as hard a time at first accepting who they really are I have an Alpha-type sister who is always riding my ass to be like her.....I can only imagine what it must be like for the guys. Thanks, sunshine, for starting this!!

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man - 12/9/2009 10:04:39 AM

Posts: 260
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline

Not a male sub, not speaking for them, but I have spoken to many on this topic.

Their refusal to appear in public at a play party for example or a munch is usually explained away as concern for being "outed", that their jobs would be lost if anyone knew etc. But later, they admit the real fear is what they'll see in the eyes of other men. They don't want to be viewed as submissive by other men.

It's not a groundless fear, either. I have seen "the look" myself on the faces of some male doms. Fleeting, but it's there. A kind of pity or maybe a flash of superiority-hard to define because it flashes by so quickly.

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> Cognitive Dissonance in the Submissive Man

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

0.172