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Dominance and Selfishness - 3/4/2014 9:27:55 PM

pg4g

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Ok, I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, and I've been considering whether or not to post this for a while. I don't mean to offend by what I post here.

In another thread we were talking about a master who seemed to ignore his sub, and punished her for continuing to discuss something. He wanted something a certain way, and he didn't seem to want to listen to anything about changing it. It led me to think about something that worries me greatly: what is the relationship between, or difference between, dominance and selfishness?

I see some Dommes on this site discussing men who want women to do things to them, almost like a joke. Like saying "If you were a true submissive, you care about me, not what you want." It seems like the suggestion in these posts is that "real subs are selfless, and I want a sub who is all about me." Is this selfishness? Then I see suggestions that basically run along the lines of "Make it all about me, and I might deign to possibly do something you might enjoy."

Is dominance inherently selfish? When I take control, I'm only ever interested in ensuring we will get both of our needs met. I'm taking control of the experience for both of us. I kind of can't comprehend the selfishness I spoke of above. It would never sit right with me to be that uninterested in the needs of the other person, no matter the power exchange occurring. I might decide that right now, I'm going to get what I want, their pleasure is delayed, but it still certainly is extremely important to me that they get what they want.

Am I missing something here?

< Message edited by pg4g -- 3/4/2014 9:42:28 PM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/4/2014 9:38:43 PM

Rawni

Posts: 1175
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I don't believe being dominant means selfish and even have a posting in my journal about it. I am not saying they aren't... I am saying they don't need to be and don't have to be.

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/4/2014 9:49:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

Is dominance inherently selfish?

Good question, and I want to say yes and no. And maybe. It would depend on the individual. The same question could also be asked of submissives, because sometimes when I hear them describe things, it's all about them.

I don't consider myself selfish. There are those who are selfish and the concept of Dominance over another attracts them out of innate selfishness. More than that. A combination of that and the lust for power. Those sorts must feel powerless in other aspects of life, and they are often sorely lacking in their capacity to give and receive genuine love and affection and/or to fully commit to an intimate relationship as a give-and-take proposition.

Just ruminating. The opportunity to exploit others certainly makes BDSM a fertile breeding ground for these types. Sociopathically-inclined? Missing an empathy chip? Operating from their reptile brains?

I look at it this way. I'm not seeking power OVER. I want the power TO be a catalyst, and for my partner to be a catalyst for me as well.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/4/2014 10:15:45 PM

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Years ago, I wrote:

quote:

Service--being of use or value to others. How many "dominants" are cringing, right now (notice the quotation marks, also, please)? How many are looking down their noses at me? Before we can become leaders, we need to know how to serve. The common belief that this lifestyle is all about me is correct from my submissives’ point of view, as long as I am not all about me. If I am a compassionate human being who is bent on making the world (or my little corner of it) a better place, then, a submissive that makes it "all about me" is not only serving my foolish caprices (of which there will still be plenty) but, serving the community/her fellow human being. That's a good thing!

It was in a fairly long-ish response that I wrote on these very boards in 2007.

Selfishness is not a component of dominance (in my mind). However, there are plenty that see it that way.

As with so many things, it's actually about the make-up of the individual.

I will grant that there is an element of "selfishness" (please note the quotation marks) ie; the reason I am who I am is because at some level, I wish to be the ultimate authority in the relationship. Certainly that hints at selfishness.

There is no doubt that I border on some fringe human behaviors; selfishness being amongst them but only an asshole allows self-will to run rampant. If we wake up, every day, determined to do some little thing to make ourselves a better person, that self-will will not rule the day.

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/4/2014 10:33:31 PM >

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/4/2014 11:40:09 PM

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I went looking for an old thread, too. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find it. The original had something to do with that I had My own particular brand of selfishness, with which, I happen to agree.

Unlike a number of folks, My power imbalance dynamics are not My primary relationship. I'm clear about the purpose of said dynamic is about a, b, c and will never include x, y, z. It is about what I want. (I do not consider these things to be needs.) If a person matches the outline for this, great! If not, the person will get the door.

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RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 12:41:56 AM

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~FR~

I think when you say "I see some Dommes on this site discussing men who want women to do things to them, almost like a joke" the problem is you're not actually in on the joke. It's treated with such snark because the people we're speaking about are themselves the ones who are insanely selfish. These are the "submissives" who show up in our inboxes with a laundry list of kinky things that they want done to them with zero thought as to what the person on the other side of the screen might want out of life. Worst of all they see no problem with this behaviour and believe that their total lack of consideration is actually desired. The Dommes aren't asking for it to be all about them, they're just trying to explain the same concepts over and over again without going completely insane. So yeah, it gets kinda snarky because it's a touchy subject. But I can't name a single Domme I've ever talked to who has no interest in making her partner(s) happy. When I go into a scene or initiate sex with my partner it's always to maximize both of our enjoyment. Isn't that just kind of one of the hallmarks of being a decent human being?

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 1:22:53 AM

MissImmortalPain

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I'm not sure what anyone is supposed to say to this other than.....You are right. My life is about me and I would rather that someone else made their life about me as well. But....(yeah there is always a but)....if I could correct something about what you said " Make it all about me, and I might deign to possibly do something you might enjoy." I see it a little more like this. Make it all about me and I assure you that I will do something you will enjoy. If you "serve" me I am more than happy to say that I will go out of my way to make you happy too. Serving someone is, in my opinion, a wonderful thing and one that should be rewarded. It is every bit the job of a dominant as much as it is a submissive to know and understand the other person. Am I selfish in the manner that I want my partner/pet/toy/other to think about me often and want to build their life around me? Yes, I am. Does that mean I don't want them to be just as happy? No, it doesn't. I guess you can read that any way you want to but I would hope that no one is such a fool that they believe they can take without giving back. No good relationship works that way or lasts very long if it does.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 2:50:21 AM

nyx84

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Selfishness isn't limited to the dominant side. The difference I tend to see is the selfish submissive's don't get very far they either can't get a partner or the relationship dosn't last long. Selfish dominant's tend to be better able to get someone to commit to them.
The selfish sub's end up whining that no ine wanrs them and the response from the dom/me's tend to be put my needs first and, I think you should pay more attention to what the dom/me wants then what they want because if you have a good dom/me that value your wellbeing and that includes your happiness.
The selfish dom/me's tend to stay in the background hiding themselves. We get insten there sub's complaining that there dom/me dosn't care about them or asking if a situation is right.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 2:56:27 AM

pg4g

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84
I think you should pay more attention to what the dom/me wants then what they want because if you have a good dom/me that value your wellbeing and that includes your happiness.

You do realise this is like saying "Give me all your money, and I might pay for your food"? It's a big risk to take.

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

(in reply to nyx84)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 3:19:01 AM

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I'd say BDSM is like any other relationship, there are 2 or more people who need to get something out of it, if you want it to be all about you, then good luck finding somebody who's priority is you, not going to be easy...

Being clear what you want can help to cut a lot of BS out, I'd say a sub who wants to make it all about a Domme, is it really all about the Domme or isn't it maybe his fetish to make it all about the Domme?

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 4:11:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84
I think you should pay more attention to what the dom/me wants then what they want because if you have a good dom/me that value your wellbeing and that includes your happiness.

You do realise this is like saying "Give me all your money, and I might pay for your food"? It's a big risk to take.

Of COURSE it is a big risk to take. That is why there is a recurring theme that's almost set to the sound of drumbeats on these boards.
You HAVE to be trustworthy, with integrity, to inspire another to submit to your will.

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(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 4:23:47 AM

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Interesting topic for a thread.

I don't think dominance is inherently selfish at all. Dominance and selfishness are not necessarily mutually exclusive in my mind, but nor do they have to go hand in hand. They are completely separate traits.

As you said, OP, that when you take control, you take control of the experience for both of you; I think that a lot of people are the same way.

In my mind dominance is essentially assertive control, power, and/or authority. It is leadership.

When my Master leads, he leads us, for us. Surely, he wants to be in charge, he wants to be the master, he wants to own me, and it makes him happy. But he is not just in charge so that he gets what he wants, with no regards to me. It's about mutual fulfillment. He's in charge to take care of both of our needs and wants, both individually and as a team/partnership.

In fact, to me, one of the traits that is essential to being a good leader, is selflessness. Caring about the well-being and happiness of their subordinates. Because when you lead them, you are--at least in some way--responsible for them. And beyond that, people are unlikely to follow a leader that they feel has no interest in their well-being.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84
I think you should pay more attention to what the dom/me wants then what they want because if you have a good dom/me that value your wellbeing and that includes your happiness.

You do realise this is like saying "Give me all your money, and I might pay for your food"? It's a big risk to take.

Ah yes, it is a big risk. That's why it is important to only take that risk with someone who not only are you compatible with, but that there is absolute trust with them.

But I would argue that if the person is worth taking that risk for, they instead said something more like "Give me all your money, and I promise I will pay for your food."

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:00:21 AM

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quote:

But I would argue that if the person is worth taking that risk for, they instead said something more like "Give me all your money, and I promise I will pay for your food."

But the people who are into the "give me all your money" thing get off on the risk and the thrill, of course it's dangerous and it's pretty unwise, but that's how they get their rocks off, it's about them...

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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(in reply to RaspberryLemon)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:05:50 AM

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Everyone is selfish it's just to what degree. No matter what type of relationship it is, each person is looking to get something out of it for their personal benefit.

I enter into the relationship selfishly then turn it into wanting to make him happy.
It's still selfish because I'm expecting him, in return, to make me happy.
If he takes advantage of that, becoming completely selfish and not seeing that my needs are met as well, I'm out. Yes, I do have needs and it's more than just seeing the people around me are happy.
He knows what my needs are, and I his. They weren't all laid out in the beginning, they were things we learned over time. Trust was built. With more trust, we each became less selfish.

I don't find it to be incredibly selfish if a person were to say, up front, this is what I am and am not looking for. I see acts no different than preference in personal appearance, for example. It's all part of the choosing process. Someone who states "this is what I'm looking for, what do you have to offer me", I can't say they're anymore selfish than someone who said "I will make sure your needs are met". I just, most likely, wouldn't be compatible with the first.

I would find it incredibly selfish if, once in the relationship, that person changes direction or desires without consulting the other person and expecting them to go along with it. Or, doesn't meet the needs of the other person IF that is what was originally promised or agreed upon.

If it was originally declared, up front, a D had no desire in meeting the needs of the s and they both enter into a relationship, I would find it more selfish of the s to suddenly want his/her needs be met.
Now, the chances of there being a person out there that didn't want their needs to somehow be met is highly unlikely.

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:11:08 AM

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quote:

what is the relationship between, or difference between, dominance and selfishness?

I have encountered an unusually high percentage of Doms who are also narcissists (and selfish.) (I was a magnet.) Narcissists are inherently selfish. These men were selfish because they were narcissists, not because they were doms.

quote:

Is dominance inherently selfish? When I take control, I'm only ever interested in ensuring we will get both of our needs met. I'm taking control of the experience for both of us.

Yes, my man is also interested in getting both of our needs met. He's in control, but he keeps my needs in mind.

I'm in control of what we eat, but I keep his preferences in mind.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 3/5/2014 5:12:10 AM >

(in reply to pg4g)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:14:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: asanaambitions

~FR~

I think when you say "I see some Dommes on this site discussing men who want women to do things to them, almost like a joke" the problem is you're not actually in on the joke. It's treated with such snark because the people we're speaking about are themselves the ones who are insanely selfish. These are the "submissives" who show up in our inboxes with a laundry list of kinky things that they want done to them with zero thought as to what the person on the other side of the screen might want out of life. Worst of all they see no problem with this behaviour and believe that their total lack of consideration is actually desired. The Dommes aren't asking for it to be all about them, they're just trying to explain the same concepts over and over again without going completely insane. So yeah, it gets kinda snarky because it's a touchy subject. But I can't name a single Domme I've ever talked to who has no interest in making her partner(s) happy. When I go into a scene or initiate sex with my partner it's always to maximize both of our enjoyment. Isn't that just kind of one of the hallmarks of being a decent human being?

Yes, Dommes here spend an awful lot of time trying to undo the misconceptions created by Fem Dom porn.

(in reply to asanaambitions)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:20:56 AM

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They way i see it if both the Dominant and submissive are communicating openly and discussing their wants and needs before they ever start a relationship then at least some of their wants/needs should coincide so that both are getting something they want from the relationship.
Yes there are selfish people on both ends of the whip but if you are communicating then you at least have the chance that each persons selfish needs and wants will mesh with the others.
As a submissive i need to serve a strong Dominant and hopefully one day i will find one. I need structure in the relationship clear rules and consequences for breaking them or disobeying hopefully i will find a Dominant who needs the same things.
Am i selfish to hope to find this? maybe, naive? possibly but that doesn't make it a bad thing it just makes me human.

< Message edited by shadowborn61 -- 3/5/2014 5:21:52 AM >

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:33:31 AM

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Shadow, absolutely no issue with it, because I think that does actually cut down on the number of frogs you have to kiss, basically my premise is that people get into relationships for selfish reasons, in vanilla, in BDSM, the goal is to be happier with a person than without a person, in a good relationship the things mesh and people want to make each other happy and give each other what they need.

It's a bit like mono versus poly, both are not wrong, poly is wrong for some people, doesn't make it wrong for everybody, but it would be wrong for a person who is monogamous.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to shadowborn61)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:41:46 AM

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This is part of the reason I shy away from TPE relationships.

I was burned one time.
It won't happen again.

I'm sure their are many successful and excellent TPE relationships, many here seem to have them.
But I was so miserably unheard and unhappy...I'll never do it again.

That risk isn't worth my career or self respect.

(in reply to shadowborn61)

RE: Dominance and Selfishness - 3/5/2014 5:57:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

This is part of the reason I shy away from TPE relationships.

I was burned one time.
It won't happen again.

I'm sure their are many successful and excellent TPE relationships, many here seem to have them.
But I was so miserably unheard and unhappy...I'll never do it again.

That risk isn't worth my career or self respect.

You picked a bad match. Who's fault is that??

It's like saying I got sun-burnt so I'll never go out in the sun again.
Or, I managed to burn myself on the gas cooker flame so I'll never cook with gas ever again.
Stupid. Unbelievably obtuse.

Learn from your mistake.
Be more vigilant in your choice of people.

(in reply to shiftyw)

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