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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 9:38:28 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

An odd statement, considering the absence of wildly successful socialist societies in the world.

quote:


Not in the slightest, seeing as I made no mention of societies. My statement6 only becomes odd when you add shit to it in your mind that I never put in the original. Try paying closer attention to what is actually said in the future.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 9:39:31 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

you are a man on here drunk/and or high, talking trash on a regular basis, with no reality.
Yes, he truly has found his people. If there's a place in the world where he belongs, it's here with the other fucktards who talk trash on a regular basis with "no reality".




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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 9:41:21 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

Has there been any country that practiced socialism 100% and was able to succeed?

No, there have been none that have even tried. There have been a number of very totaslitarian fascist regimes that have claimed to be socialist, but they were all centralised state capitalist systems.
quote:

It seems like greed, dishonesty, and/or corruption undermines almost every economic system.

That is true of all such systems except for capitalism, which is based on the acceptance and embracing of greed, dishonesty and corruption, and so rewards those attributes handsomely.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 9:44:19 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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Next time you quote encyclopedia.com verbatim like that, you really should cite it you know.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 12:20:34 PM   
bounty44


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

Something you should keep in mind. This is a discussion forum on a fucking kinky sex site, not as formal debate or dissertation, and thus I am not required to adhere to any standard of proof or evidencing other than what suits my whim and passing fancy at the time.
You don't like that? Well, too fucking bad, sucks to be you.
I have explained socialism, I have given you the introductory sources required for understanding it. But you, like the Yanks, have decided that what I have learned actually studying political science over the course of many years is not true, and what you got from dictionary.com and some under-educated high school football coach is the gospel truth.
Again, sucks to be you.


you might indeed have "explained socialism" but that's not the point.

despite all the protestations and evidence to the contrary, you nevertheless still seem to want to cling to that your understanding of it is the only possible one that could exist. its mind boggling. I don't doubt for a moment what you know is true---and despite not being a moral relativist, I also don't doubt other definitions are true also.

and you somehow think that the need to support what one says gets thrown out the window just because of the venue? I don't see how the responsibility for speaking the truth AND supporting it disappear just because this is a "kinky sex site."

if a couple of the purposes of conversation are to seek understanding and to seek whats true as well as sharpening ones own rhetorical abilities, then showing evidence/giving reasons/providing support is necessary no matter where one converses.






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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 5:01:41 PM   
Edwird


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Fiya!

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
being able using terms roughly or broadly, or with some polemic nuance are lost in the fidelity to a definition that, in a complex world, cannot really exist.


And here all along we were led to believe that it was all about the supply-siders vs. whomever.

In any case, I take it that you are aligned with the rough'n ready broad-siders in this instance, especially being that any notion of nuance is beyond the ken of you and your ilk, as you spare no effort to display at least provocation in every post, and vote accordingly.


quote:

heres the deal comrades---in the continuum between individualist and collectivist, its more to the latter than many on the former desire.



Right. Your understanding of nuance and deep understanding of the continuum you speak of is that on a scale of 1 being Pinochet/Franco and 10 being Marx, anyone rated past 1.1 is referred to as 'comrade.'

It's not even irony; it's something far below that where we now have The Commander in Chief as best buddies with The Comrade in Chief, the ever blooming Bromance there for all to witness. How sweet.


Fiya!

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 5:25:17 PM   
Edwird


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PS

At least sanity-bozo, in a cosmically induced scintilla of logical thought, found his way to quit saying "Hillary Goldman Sachs Clinton."

Things turn so quickly, these days. Your former (and still present, it seems) term of derision is now our president's term of endearment.

So, how are you going to handle this?

With your innate talent for broad-sided wide-brush nuance, I'm sure you'll find a way.

Comrade.

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 5:39:01 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

and you somehow think that the need to support what one says gets thrown out the window just because of the venue?

Nope, not at all, read more carefully.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 5:46:51 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Has there been any country that practiced socialism 100% and was able to succeed?

No, there have been none that have even tried. There have been a number of very totaslitarian fascist regimes that have claimed to be socialist, but they were all centralised state capitalist systems.
quote:

It seems like greed, dishonesty, and/or corruption undermines almost every economic system.

That is true of all such systems except for capitalism, which is based on the acceptance and embracing of greed, dishonesty and corruption, and so rewards those attributes handsomely.




So what is the solution?

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 5:51:04 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick


Calling Sweden socialist makes as much sense as calling the U.S. communist. Both statements are completely factually wrong.


There is nothing the least bit 'factual' about ideology nor any concept ideologically based, or any concept at all, for that matter.



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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 5:55:32 PM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Has there been any country that practiced socialism 100% and was able to succeed?

No, there have been none that have even tried. There have been a number of very totaslitarian fascist regimes that have claimed to be socialist, but they were all centralised state capitalist systems.
quote:

It seems like greed, dishonesty, and/or corruption undermines almost every economic system.

That is true of all such systems except for capitalism, which is based on the acceptance and embracing of greed, dishonesty and corruption, and so rewards those attributes handsomely.




So what is the solution?


What's wrong with greed? It makes people work hard and puts food on the table for the children. Pays taxes, so government can run and creates goods like cell phones and computers and provides all kinds of services.

And name a good alternative that actually works.

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WickedsDesire


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WickedsDesire


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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 6:06:16 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph
It's no use complaining the ignorance about those things in a country where for many decades any of these terms have been used only to demonise necessary political achievements for everybody's benefit.


So then; what would you consider the best system to obtain best outcome for everybody? For the moment, forget about history, past deeds and occurrences, etc., but starting afresh.

And how will this be determined as to what constitutes the measure and proper accounting of 'benefit,' the determination itself being satisfactory to everybody, such that it can be reliably applied to 'everybody'?

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 6:19:55 PM   
bounty44


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The Moral Basis of Capitalism

Socialism vs. Capitalism: Which is the Moral

Without Question, Capitalism Is Supremely Moral

CAPITALISM: THE ONLY MORAL SOCIAL SYSTEM

and on and on and on...its no contest.

its the only socioeconomic system that both respects the rights of individuals and at the same time, takes into account human nature.

and sorry comrades, it does not EMBRACE dishonesty and corruption. in fact, it punishes and diminishes them.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 6:23:08 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

So under socialism, does the CEO get the same pay as the janitor, or is it ok for him/her to make 3 times the janitor's salary.


If everyone owns everything and pay is equal for all despite intelligence or performance, why would anyone break a sweat, or even bother showing up for work

Where is this la-la land that Dizzy just invented anyway. Somewhere amongst the Big Rock Candy Mountains perhaps?

"In the Big Rock Candy Mountains"

One evening as the sun went down
And the jungle fires were burning,
Down the track came a hobo hiking,
And he said, "Boys, I'm not turning
I'm headed for a land that's far away
Besides the crystal fountains
So come with me, we'll go and see
The Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
There's a land that's fair and bright,
Where the handouts grow on bushes
And you sleep out every night.
Where the boxcars all are empty
And the sun shines every day
And the birds and the bees
And the cigarette trees
The lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
You never change your socks
And the little streams of alcohol
Come trickling down the rocks
The brakemen have to tip their hats
And the railway bulls are blind
There's a lake of stew
And of whiskey too
You can paddle all around it
In a big canoe
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
The jails are made of tin.
And you can walk right out again,
As soon as you are in.
There ain't no short-handled shovels,
No axes, saws nor picks,
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day,
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
....
I'll see you all this coming fall
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqowmHgxVJQ


No. The Big Rock Candy Mountain is in Utah. We are talking about Sweden. Different continent.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 6:24:04 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

So what is the solution?

Honestly? There isn't one. Communism offers the best possible model, but it runs counter to those aforementioned human traits, and so will always fail unless there is some influence that will override those traits. So far, that has only been found in extreme religiosity, but even that is not a sure counter, as many communal religious bodies/communities have fallen prey to the greed of leaders or members, etc.
Of course, even when it does manage to overcome greed, etc., it opens the believers up to manipulation and exploitation, so the strength can also be a weakness.
Rather than there being a single solution, there are some basic principles that alleviate the deliterious effects of the greed, etc., however, many of them are more or less unworkable given the curent world population and degree of urbanization.
These principles are
1. The broader the interest in an enterprise, the less subject it is to being corrupted.
2. The more closely an enterprise is connected and interdependent with it's local community, the less likely it is to be corrupted. This principle, however, often runs counter to the first.
3. The more the focus of an enterprise is on profit for profit's sake, the more susceptible it is to corruption.
4. The more diffuse the authority in an enterprise is, the less susceptible it is to corruption.

As to what is required of us (meaning people in general)
A. A fundamental shift in societal mores is required, away from individualism and the glorification of material wealth towards a greater sense of community and a broader societal acceptance of the concept of "having enough".
B. A societal shift away from the worship of excess and consumption as a measure of personal worth, basically to value people for who and what they are rather than how much they have.
C. The abandonment of the concept of a "productive member of society", and the idea of a hierarchy of worth based on what one does for a living. Garbage men and janitors are looked down on, yet our entire society would implode without them. We could not get by without them, or truck drivers, longshoremen, farm workers, grocery store cashiers, etc., yet those jobs are generally seen as being the realm of failures, of people who can't do any better (just look at how many people try to attack me for my decision to remain a barmaid rather than get some corporate job).

As you can see, the "solution" involves such a deep and fundamental change in the basic assumptions of our whole societal model as to be effectively impossible.

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RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 6:25:21 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Has there been any country that practiced socialism 100% and was able to succeed?

No, there have been none that have even tried. There have been a number of very totaslitarian fascist regimes that have claimed to be socialist, but they were all centralised state capitalist systems.
quote:

It seems like greed, dishonesty, and/or corruption undermines almost every economic system.

That is true of all such systems except for capitalism, which is based on the acceptance and embracing of greed, dishonesty and corruption, and so rewards those attributes handsomely.




So what is the solution?


What's wrong with greed? It makes people work hard and puts food on the table for the children. Pays taxes, so government can run and creates goods like cell phones and computers and provides all kinds of services.

And name a good alternative that actually works.


I am engaging in a discussion.
I do not have the answers, and I am not sure what system I prefer.
I do not care for "unbridled Capitalism" as I have said on here for years.

Many corrupt morally bankrupt soulless corporate bastards are hand in hand with the government that is supposed to serve the "people".
The "system" is not working for millions and millions of people, and many in the middle class are free falling into the lower class if not into poverty.


I don't have the answers...

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The Swedish socialist utopia - 8/22/2017 6:29:40 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline
quote:

What's wrong with greed?

It leads to the exploitation and abuse of others. Slavery is a result of greed. Bhopal was a result of greed. Love canal was the result of greed.


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Profile   Post #: 140
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