RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane?

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:16:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

It seems the people who do the greatest things for humanity are always christened insane while the monsters are christened heros.. whats up with that?

Short 14min clip of the beginning of the industrial; age and the insanity that took us there.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=448493458864593229&q

There aren't any monsters or geniuses... just humans with or without vision... well, and males.

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:17:14 PM

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Which also means, incidentally, that there are some 250 people who have an IQ at least as high as that of the woman who supposedly has the highest IQ in the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

For instance, Marilyn vos Savant was placed in the 99.999997th percentile, which means one in about 30 million people have that level of IQ. Obviously, accurately discerning something with statistical validity at this level is hard, if not outright impossible.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:19:13 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It something interacts with reality, it must be part of it.

Not per se. That's either an oversimplification, or raises a long series of questions about definitions, which would be well beyond the scope of this thread to answer satisfactorily.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:20:50 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Time isn't physical; does that mean it doesn't exist?

Don't get him started on that.

Please.

I'm not a physicist, but even I could go on for pages and pages about that.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:52:17 PM

Aswad

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Okay, anyone between page 11 and this post (on page 15) that I'm replying to here will have to forgive me for skiping forward; theology was not what I was looking for when I started reading this thread, and it was getting to be the only thing. I replied as I went, so it seemed a waste not to go forward.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

What is curious about serial criminals, is that for a lot of them they lack remorse or a sense of guilt about what they did. It is almost as if they dont really believe they will be caught.

What does remorse or guilt have to do with getting caught?

I may be at a loss here, or wired completely differently (like I have suggested in the past, though people don't always buy that assertion), but I just don't see any connection between getting caught and contrition.

quote:

And the real sociopaths, the mentality seems to be "Oh, prison, jail, court, something new and interesting to experience." There is no connection between who they perceive themselves to be and their actions.

Some, yes. But I've worked for a sociopath. And he wouldn't want to go to jail. There are differences.

quote:

As for the rest, as any number of detectives have pointed out "They do their crime once, I investigate their crime for a living."

Sure. There's an issue with time there. The detectives will have more time to devote to it.

But I've seen people get away with killing, no questions asked, though I doubt any of them did it for kicks. The best way to do it, is to make sure the killing isn't murder (that is, unlawful killing). For instance, learn what kinds of tests various armies use, then sign up. Same for the police force. Or to become a doctor.

quote:

Most people lack the experience and insight.

Of course.

Now, consider that intelligence is vaguely correlated to insight in this instance and that it has a bell curve spread with a slightly fat tail. Then add the fact that experience is an integral over time.

Those edges are looking mighty iffy, aren't they?

quote:

What is interesting about adrenal response, is that a person who commits a crime successfully has to deal with the adrenalin / muscle memory aspects of it. This is why criminals tend to be monogamous; the way they did it last time worked, why change their M.O.?

I can't comment about the latter part.

But I've dealt with adrenal response in the past (I've even been treated with a drug that puts you in a continous low-grade fight-or-flight response and amplifies the peaks), and there's any number of ways to throw people off. Including fixing the M.O.

And then there's the bit about how you can use drugs to suppress these responses; that's starting to get more commonly known in criminal circles around here. Don't know how people are doing in that regard in the US.

quote:

As for the drug discussion, the words of Matt Damon in The Legend of Bagger Vance, about "how drunk is drunk enough" come to mind.

To me, drunk is too drunk. I don't like being drunk.

I don't like being sedated either, but depending on the drug used, it can be more tolerable than alcohol.

Seems more viable to substitute alcohol for something less harmful and more effective.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:52:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It something interacts with reality, it must be part of it.

Not per se. That's either an oversimplification, or raises a long series of questions about definitions, which would be well beyond the scope of this thread to answer satisfactorily.

Oh, no, this point is a perfect absolute. Should another universe exist- with only one way of affecting our own in a minor way (say, every billion years, one low-energy photon from it is exchanged with one low-energy photon from our univese of almost the same energy, but the universes are otherwise seperate)- that universe would be part of our reality. It seems even impossible for us, should we live ten trillion years, to even have a slight clue about the nature of that universe; still, is is part of our reality. Even when it's 500,000 years from having effected or effecting our universe, common.

For something to be real (or part of reality), it must effect reality in some way. It must interact. Anything that interacts is part of our reality. That other universe, by virtue of interacting by means of photons, is part of our reality (though one might argue not as part of our universe, common).

I elaborate upon this point as I feel it's vital to understanding our own existence.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:55:21 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Which also means, incidentally, that there are some 250 people who have an IQ at least as high as that of the woman who supposedly has the highest IQ in the world.

Quite possibly, yes.

Highest measured IQ, by the way.

You can strike a significant part of that number, though, I think. Asia compensates for Africa on general distribution of potential, pretty much, but the nutritional factors in Africa and India (at the very least) probably lower realization of the potential significantly.

Either way, it's pretty bloody impressive.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 10:59:40 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Oh, no, this point is a perfect absolute.

I cede the point; I misinterpreted your post.

I read "universe" where you said "reality", partly because I felt like you were confusing the two in some parts of certain posts- perhaps intentionally- and partly because I was starting to get blurry vision from the number of posts I've spent my time on today.

quote:

I elaborate upon this point as I feel it's vital to understanding our own existence.

~nod~

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 11:05:21 PM

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I'd offer another analogy, too, to bring the mathematical approach to more human reasonings- one of the better analogies I've heard before.

I would invite you to consider a small, barely-inflated balloon. The surface of such a balloon would represent our universe. (This analogy is flawed in that a surface is 2D while the universe, as we see it, is 3D. I'd ask you pretend the balloon to be a 4D object, which would make the surface 3D, or to simply forego concern for number of diminsions in this instance.)

Mass and energy on this balloon might be marked by dots from a fine marker.

As the balloon becomes inflated, such dots would gain distance from one another. The surface area, representative of our universe, will also expand.

Unlike dots on a balloon, objects in our universe are not pinned down to the space they're at. They're able to move. In the case of galaxies, though the dots are pushed apart, the pull of gravity acts against it, exerting force to maintain closeness.

A grand question stands as to whether or not there is enough mass in this unverse for gravity to overcome this expansion- for the universe not to be torn apart through expansion. At this point, it seems unlikely- that such dots on a balloon are destined to be spaced so far apart that they could never be rejoined or interact again.

At the time of the Big Bang, such a balloon representing our universe would be incredibly small, if not infinitely small, then began to expand as it appears to continue to until this day.

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 11:22:40 PM

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Well yes, that's the point: if 250 unknown people in the world must be able to equal or surpass the highest measured IQ, there's essentially no way to verify whether the highest measured IQ is actually valid. Or I suppose you could do IQ tests on 30 million RANDOMLY chosen people. But that's never going to happen.

I was agreeing that IQ scores at that level are nearly meaningless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Which also means, incidentally, that there are some 250 people who have an IQ at least as high as that of the woman who supposedly has the highest IQ in the world.

Quite possibly, yes.

Highest measured IQ, by the way.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 12:38:57 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well yes, that's the point: if 250 unknown people in the world must be able to equal or surpass the highest measured IQ, there's essentially no way to verify whether the highest measured IQ is actually valid. Or I suppose you could do IQ tests on 30 million RANDOMLY chosen people. But that's never going to happen.

~nod~ Or so I hope. It'd be pretty hard to imagine any reason to do so that doesn't carry some negative implications.

quote:

I was agreeing that IQ scores at that level are nearly meaningless.

In that case, I agree. Anything beyond the 99.9th percentile is iffy, in general. I'm a bit shy of that, according to what tests I've done, but the ceiling wasn't specified. In any case, I know from experience that there are tons of people out there whose intelligence I can not begin to comprehend. Those, I generally label "genious".

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 3:58:14 AM

Tuoni

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Okay, now I have got to ask what advice you(general you, not specific you) would give for someone to go about finding their percentile. I've thought about my own intelligence and I figure I'd fall into the average range, whatever that is. Never really thought much about getting my intelligence measured though. Well I have, but nothing more than "Hmm, I wonder what it would be."

Obviously, internet tests are out the window, but a local psycologist? Is there a recognized organization? Is it stupidly expensive and not worth the investment for curiosity sakes? (at least at my age)

Inquiring minds. .. er, mind, wants to know.

< Message edited by Tuoni -- 6/4/2007 3:59:17 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 4:42:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

The ability to think the unthinkable.

Simple as that. Being able to think what other people cannot, in fact being unable not to do so, is the thing that allows people like Albert Einstein to put together the Theory of Relativity. It is also what allows some people to think "Okay, it'll cost half the population, but it's the only way out of this mess." or similar. In that, it is priceless, both valuable and dangerous.

One of my main fears if people are allowed to start "engineering" their kids, is that that trait will be identified, and bred out of the species. Then we'll be stuck with the lowest common denominator, and snail-paced progress, in all areas of life, art and technology.

Likewise tesla who is the creator of our "modern" yet antique AC wall outlet who in his work later came up with an electrical system that is "natural" and operates nearly exactly like the nervous system of the human body.   AC was a means of overcoming the limitations of DC that Edison championed, and wireless was Teslas later creation to overcome the limitations of his own invention AC, however once big money is involved and becomes imedded with no way to meter and charge for this wonderful new invention, it was discarded and ultimately put down as most technology is that can be had without the need for a "central supplier", much like they are trying very hard to regulate herbs.

The greater majority of my ailments were totally taken care of with herbs etc which eliminated a 400+ dollar invoice every month from big pharma however herbs is more difficult to suppress or control since many people are both familiar with them and have been using them since the beginning of time and put up a fight for it.   Unlike the tesla inventions that never came to complete fruition in the public eye because it required massive infrastructure to do so and as the old saying goes you tend not to miss what you never had.

i simply sum that quote up as "thinkning out of the box".

People often build brain cages and put themselves in them for safe keeping. Seeking stability through supposed absolutes of science or religion and exactly like a prize fighter there is always someone bigger that is going to come along and knock ya down sooner or later.

As far as i am concerned the title genius or even gifted is rediculous. Again take tesla as a perfct example. He was a genius when it came to understanding the electro-mechano world around him and when it came to business, finance and law fell totally short.   Thus one would say genius? How can that happen to a genius?

i think people become focused and tune in to specific areas of life and in those particular areas connect extremely well through hard work and sacrifice and accel to great heights at the expense of many other areas in life.

There is a price to pay, even in the mind, nothing is free.

Thinking the unthinkable as well as imagining the unimaginable is also the foundation of excellent investigative technique.

When the plausible does not fit consider the implausible.

i think many people fail to properly put little puzzles together in that they force round objects into a square hole as a result of failing to consider the implausible.   They do not realize that people exist who not only think the unthinkable and imagine the unimagineable but have the where with all to act upon it as well.

The unthinkable-unimagineable club.

Failure to recognize its existance has always impressed me that a person set up a brain cage, and i think people do that because they want life to be sunshine and sparkles without the need to examine or deal with a truly dark and gloomy side or as a means to deal with, (often mask), personal insecurities.

No matter what walk in life a person takes it seems there is always equilibrium in that "everything" in life and thought is an exchange and for every upside there is an equal and opposite downside, for everything gained something is lost and in the end its where one places their priorities as no one can "truly" have it all.

Aswad excellent series of posts, great reading, and btw not that i particulary have any kind issue with peoples grammar, (as long as i can understand them anything goes as far as i am concerned), but i coulnt help but notice that you are the first person i have seen to use the word "suffice" correctly in over 10 years LOL (and that includes tv announcers and speakers etc!) WTG!

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(in reply to Aswad)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 5:10:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuoni

Of course, if God is omnipotent then this this all moot since God could just decide "Imortality exists because I say so. Oh, and gravity produces cookies and purple is now a direction."

Oooo if only gravity could produce cookies and the wind could whip up icecream to go with it, I would be set!

And purple is a direction - it's left - or west from a compas POV - (have to know synaesthesia to 'see' that one).

Peace

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.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Tuoni)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 6:43:01 AM

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quote:

Normal ranges
Most subs and slaves have been normal. I couldn't relate to most. Normal people have natural IQ's not overly different from domesticated animals, in my opinion, with the notable exceptions of speech and fine manual dexterity. I regard most sub's/slave's in this range as pets. They were unable to understand my emotions, thoughts, or feelings.

Wow, you sure go to great lengths to win friends and influence people. Does anyone take you seriously?

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(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 8:23:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Normal ranges
Most subs and slaves have been normal. I couldn't relate to most. Normal people have natural IQ's not overly different from domesticated animals, in my opinion, with the notable exceptions of speech and fine manual dexterity. I regard most sub's/slave's in this range as pets. They were unable to understand my emotions, thoughts, or feelings.

Wow, you sure go to great lengths to win friends and influence people. Does anyone take you seriously?

heheheheh... how true! I've certainly been influenced. I liked that analogy about people building brain cages, in this case and (the remainder of the boi's who've posted on this page so far), I see that one can also staff that brain cage with the brilliant thought of OTHER's who actually have vision. Their like little parrots with funny haircuts.

< Message edited by peepeegirl5 -- 6/4/2007 8:28:31 AM >

_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 11:56:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: peepeegirl5

heheheheh... how true! I've certainly been influenced. I liked that analogy about people building brain cages, in this case and (the remainder of the boi's who've posted on this page so far), I see that one can also staff that brain cage with the brilliant thought of OTHER's who actually have vision. Their like little parrots with funny haircuts.

Considering that you are the product of the Texas pubic educational system your mindset makes perfect sense.
thompson

(in reply to peepeegirl5)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 2:07:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Normal ranges
Most subs and slaves have been normal. I couldn't relate to most. Normal people have natural IQ's not overly different from domesticated animals, in my opinion, with the notable exceptions of speech and fine manual dexterity. I regard most sub's/slave's in this range as pets. They were unable to understand my emotions, thoughts, or feelings.

Wow, you sure go to great lengths to win friends and influence people. Does anyone take you seriously?

First off...ASWAD, Not everyone who posts is looking to get your views on every single fucking topic....You seem like a nice enough dude...But it tis time for you to chill...

Katy ....Has peepeegirl ever looked more beatiful than she does today? Katy, don't be a hata!!....But I feel no shame in admitting that peepeegirl5 has my favorite profile perhaps on all of CM. .........Not to say that you wouldn't do in a pinch.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 3:36:48 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuoni

Okay, now I have got to ask what advice you(general you, not specific you) would give for someone to go about finding their percentile. I've thought about my own intelligence and I figure I'd fall into the average range, whatever that is.

Dead average is the 50th percentile.

Upper half of those who are above average is the 75th percentile and up. Lower half of those who are below average is the 25th percentile and down. 99th percentile, for instance, means 1% of the popoulation are at or above that level. 99.9th percentile, in turn, means 0.1% of the population are at or above that level.

quote:

Obviously, internet tests are out the window, but a local psycologist? Is there a recognized organization? Is it stupidly expensive and not worth the investment for curiosity sakes? (at least at my age)

If you think you're 98th percentile or higher, the Mensa society will do the test for you, for a small fee, and you don't have to become a member, even if the scores are high enough. A friend of mine took the test specifically to decline membership, because he hates Mensa; he passed with flying colours, and was apparently deeply satisfied with the response.

Otherwise, a psychologist or psychiatrist will usually be able to point you in the right direction.

There are generally national standards institutes or such involved with this kind of thing, and they usually do tests in batches, a few times a year. Sometimes, schools offer it. My first encounter with such was being randomly selected for the sample used to determine the population spread at high school level; the standards institute pick a bunch of students, then administer a fairly rough test (which is why I'm unsure of the exact percentile; the ceiling for those tests is very close to what I scored) and then they plot the distribution for use in certain compensation formulas, health monitoring and so forth, and the students get their percentile back.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Tuoni)

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/4/2007 3:43:27 PM

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My advice, in all honesty, is to avoid IQ tests. IQ tests have certain defensible purposes--for example, identifying potentially gifted and retarded children for special programs at school. And it's sometimes useful in criminal cases to know that the defendant has an IQ of 40. Otherwise, they're damned near useless.

First, they don't really measure your intelligence, and certainly not your innate intelligence; they measure certain kinds of intelligence, because not all kinds of intelligence are easily measured. Second, what does the result really tell you? Aside from the fact that you'd need to take several IQ tests in order to establish a credible range, the number doesn't do jackshit for you. It doesn't entitle you to a job or to special privileges. All it could possibly do, if you get an unexpected result, is shatter your sense of self--that is, if your sense of self is so fragile that you need to be validated by an IQ test.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuoni

Okay, now I have got to ask what advice you(general you, not specific you) would give for someone to go about finding their percentile.

(in reply to Tuoni)

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