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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 7:19:49 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well he thinks c, that is the speed of light is the speed limit and it would take infinite energy to go faster.  yet lemw, that is the scalar stuff i have been talking about in several posts is c + .5*c times faster and there is not change in energy.  It reminds me when "established" science thought nothing could break the sound barrier and did not know that bullets broke it for years.  lol


You would die a happy man if I renounced relativity and just ceded this, wouldn't you?  :P


nope, i would die a happy man in seeing how you plan to prove your point since 1.5c has been long since been proven empirically!  :).


_____________________________

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 8:07:40 PM   
Tuoni


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From: Canada, Ontario, My head
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Then you emulate your own fantascy world of your design.  A valid response, actually.  Have you ever tried anything else, or have you been content with this?


I am quite happy with this. Overall I prefer to be an observer in the world. I like to watch, I like to learn, but I'm unconcerned with actual involvement. If I could I would sit on the moon and watch the world evolve, grow and eventually die. then I'd move on to another world, or possibly make my own. Don't get me wrong though, I'm still human. I still have projects I try and suceed/fail at and I still desire companionship. But I like to be on the outside looking in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

There is no goalpost; it's successive approximation to an infinite, and thus unattainable, goal. In that, there are no betters, no peers, no inferiors; only fellow travellers, and those who do not travel that road.


Exactly. Whats the point of an intellectual goal? Once you reach it, what else are you going to do with your time? Short term stepping stones sure. (ie, this week I'm gonna wrap my head around 4 dymensional objects. I think I got it)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Become an author.

Robert Jordan isn't great because he's got all this cool, new stuff nobody's seen before.

. . .

In the end, you'll have a great work, and will have shared a part of yourself in a way most people cannot. You will have allowed many people to take part in your creation, and allowed them to experience a richness of fantasy that they themselves frequently will not have. Not necessarily because you have a better imagination than they do, or because you're a great writer, but because you have the capacity to go the distance.

Just my 2 cents.



Actually, that is what I'm attempting to do. Half the problem is where to start. The other have is getting around to it. I love Robert Jordan. He is someone I wish to emmulate, although I don't feel I'm up to his caliber.

I want to be a genious, but I know I'm not. Maybe above average, but thats just a hope and I don't really expect it. But, my desire to expand my perceptions is what keeps me going. I think most people are smarter than anyone gives them credit. The problem is most people don't have the desire to push their minds.

I am confronted by something I don't understamd (like string theory). I work to understand it. Given time, I either do grasp it, or convince myself I've grasped it. I swear there are a couple things I think I understand, but probably don't :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Map out your setting in great detail. Do the same for your characters. Play to your strengths.

Create a situation; a beginning, an end, and possibly some events you'd like to happen along that arc.

Recursively refine by successive approximation until you have the general gist of what will happen.

Familiarize yourself with the setting and characters. Start writing, keeping good notes along the way.

Don't worry about the quality of the writing; it will start out poor, then get better.

Observe how people talk about things, how they behave, study them, and use this to improve your portrayal of the characters.


All easier said than done I'm afraid. I'd love to befriend an author and have them help me go through my work. Someone I can really explain everything to and have them help suggest what to focus on fleshing out. My friends tend to get a little overwhelmed :)

*random thought: This is what I hate about posting before work/bed. There are a dozen posts between me and the one I respond to *

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 10:41:39 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well he thinks c, that is the speed of light is the speed limit and it would take infinite energy to go faster.  yet lemw, that is the scalar stuff i have been talking about in several posts is c + .5*c times faster and there is not change in energy.  It reminds me when "established" science thought nothing could break the sound barrier and did not know that bullets broke it for years.  lol



Real0ne:
I was under the impression that the whip when cracked was breaking the sound barrier and that this was a well understood phenomena before I was born.  We had prop driven aircraft during WWII who broke the sound barrier in dives but the physics had not yet been fully developed to design aircraft for those sorts of forces.  With the advent of jet propulsion the airframe design to support the increased power was developed from research on propeller tip speed in high rpm engines.  If you have data that is contrary to this please share it with me for I am most interested in this area of physics.
thompson



nope not me!  i agreee with you on every point!  what yousaid does not conflict with what i said at all that i can see in fact supports it imo.

The prop tip speed was the one that bothered me when i first found about it as it never occured to me a prop could spin that fast!  I found that fascinating.

the only thing i question is the whip because the speed of sound is  roughly 1128ft/sec at sea level and that would be some serious speed and if that is correct that would be even more fascinating then the prop issues!



Real0ne:
If you look here you will find the data on the whip being the first man made object to exceed the speed of sound. 
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0217a.shtml

You may or may not know that the record for manned flight speed is mach 10
thompson

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 12:20:32 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Actually, this instance of "dunce" comment was specifically referring to you.


Pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top, to both of you, CL and TX, pay close attention, pleeease?

"Don't feed the trolls" can be generalized into "Don't take the bait".

I've no gripe with either of you, so let's look at it this way:

* CL, you haven't called me an idiot yet, despite the apparent 1.6σ difference, so for the moment, I'm allowing myself to assume you don't consider me one. Please, then, consider that reading an infinite regression series of bait,response,... is hurting my brain as much as the frictions you describe in dealing with society in general.

* TX, you haven't baited me yet, and don't seem to care more for ratings than I do, so for the moment, I'm allowing myself to assume you don't have a gripe with me either. Please, then, consider that this baiting/response shtick isn't doing it for me, and that I'm pretty sure it's ruining things for others as well.

So, in short, could both of you please either agree to keep it down, or keep it on the other side of the board (PMs), or simply stick to baiting me instead? The latter will not end up with more bait, and will be equally respectful to me as a participant in this thread.

Thanks.

That concludes this selfish service announcement for the day, and fills my maturity quota this week.

quote:

I mixed up a word, off by a letter, basically out of being careless. That must mean that all my logical points are now invalid.


It's a common thing on forums; people take spelling, grammar, punctuation, font size, text color, line breaks, exclamation points, question marks and the general intelligence of the poster as a substitute (or perhaps shorthand?) for the validity of the poster's comment and/or an indicator of the value of the content of the post. No finger-pointing implied or intended. Just an observation.

quote:

And, hey.  I'll start using spell check when you start using commas.  (Incase I misspelt it, as I really am a phonics kid, it's that little period-like mark with a tail.  Sort of like a tadpole.)


Phonics have always made more sense for me, as well. And I think it would work out well for dyslexics, too; living with one, I've observed that she frequently spells things in by the way she'd speak them aloud, which causes more trouble in English than it does in Norwegian. Standard Norwegian isn't far off from a phonetic pronounciation of the Latin alphabet, though the letters Æ (ae; /æ/, /ɛ/), Ø (oe; /ø/), and Å (aa; /ɔ/) are added; even the pulmonic ingressive is fairly obvious. ISTR that English has about 50 or so distinct phonemes. The absence of a phonetic orthography in Enlish, and the huge drift that's occured between the spelling and the pronounciation, makes it tricky to get right for non-native speakers. I screw up regularly.

As for punctuation, that can be harder to get right than spelling, though English does seem to have a more logical use of punctuation than Norwegian does.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 12:31:25 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

At most better institutions, the expectation is that memorization works will be done on your own time, leaving class time for abstract thinking.


Admittedly, I haven't attended American schools, so please forgive me if I'm wrong.

But what I've seen in people who attend prestigous studies around here, including those who are fortunate enough to get exclusively good teachers, is that most programmes do not vary the level of abstract thinking between students.

My experience in school was that people were grouped across a too wide gap after the Norwegian schools dropped the subsidiary/standard/higher level division in subjects. In many cases, some topics involved a level of abstract reasoning that was memorization to me, abstract reasoning to the bulk of the class, and incomprehensible to some. Not a value judgment, nor any form of self-aggrandizement; just factually established, both through conversing with them, and through normalized testing. FWIW, I spent a fair bit of time explaining things to whoever didn't get it; as someone once said, with the caveat outlined in this thread, "if you can't explain it to a 9-year old, you don't really understand it", and some teachers don't take the time/effort to do so.

I have seen really good teachers, though, who could explain their subjects with equal ease to anyone in the class. One math teacher, in particular, who was a former boxer; one guesses he's had a wider range of social interaction (many teachers limit themselves to a teacher peer-group or peers in their fields of interest, IME).


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 12:37:34 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the only thing i question is the whip because the speed of sound is  roughly 1128ft/sec at sea level and that would be some serious speed and if that is correct that would be even more fascinating then the prop issues!


The tip of a whip can move with fairly amazing speed.

It's similar to what we do for one of our "blocks" in the Martial Art that I train in; basically, every independent joint along the way is used for independent acceleration, relative to the previous segment. That particular move is aimed at a point on the lower arm where there are bones under a nerve cluster, with (by my simplified calculations) about 15 times the velocity required to shatter the bone, if done right.

A whip, though, is flexible enough that you can send an impulse down its length, with the net result that the tip moves fast enough to "crack". Of course, a properly done single-tail can also be a lethal weapon, but that's hopefully not what most people here are training to use it as. I'll be getting training in that at some point during the advanced studies, though.

Looking forward to seeing if there's anything that can be adapted.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 1:12:41 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuoni

But I like to be on the outside looking in.


If you were on the outside, you'd probably prefer being on the inside, looking around.

quote:

Exactly. Whats the point of an intellectual goal? Once you reach it, what else are you going to do with your time? Short term stepping stones sure. (ie, this week I'm gonna wrap my head around 4 dymensional objects. I think I got it)


Convergence on infinity is sort of a goal, but it's only attainable in the limit, which is approached, not reached.

At least, not reached short of any notion of godhood and humans ascending to it.

As for 4D objects, enjoy. I have never been able "visualize" or otherwise directly "grasp" 4D objects without the aid of cognitive enhancers, except if relying on time or "stack of volumes" as an abstraction. Which is not to say that you can't. I haven't got a clue what the dimensionality of the spatial processing centers of the brain is like; I am not closed to the idea that it may have more than 3 degrees of interconnectedness, in which case it could support the notion directly, if taught to.

quote:

Actually, that is what I'm attempting to do. Half the problem is where to start. The other have is getting around to it. I love Robert Jordan. He is someone I wish to emmulate, although I don't feel I'm up to his caliber.


The thing to bear in mind is that he's been carrying around this idea for years and years, and was an accomplished writer before beginning to take on the task. Give it time, and start writing stuff down. For me, I've always had issues with the "seed" part of things; I can easily imagine a world, and even "evolve" it to a different point to give it texture, but I rarely get seed ideas. That's why nephandi is usually the storyguide when we do RPG, since she gets them all the time, and can really bring a setting to life. Myself, if I have a seed, I can go the distance with it, but I need a seed.

Getting around to it can admittedly be an issue, though.

FWIW, I prefer Tad Williams. His settings don't have the same level of detail to them, but his characters are a lot more three-dimensional and vivid. Perhaps Jordan is more realistic in that regard, as there are many people in this world (not a majority, but many) that I fail to perceive as three-dimensional, but in either case, Tad Williams is the more enjoyable writer for me.

Then again, I love tragedy, and Tad went through a depression while finishing off his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series, and chose to take it out on the characters, whose suffering is palpable. Feel free to call me a sadist. I do. ~g~

For a long time, his standing joke when people asked him how it would end was along the lines of "it all comes tumbling down in horror and bloodshed, and everyone dies terribly". Not sure if the ending can be considered an improvement over that, but I won't say more, so as to not spoil it for you.

quote:

I think most people are smarter than anyone gives them credit. The problem is most people don't have the desire to push their minds.


~nod~

I've always found that a reluctance to employ one's faculties is a greater factor in holding people back than any lack of faculties, as such. Yes, there is a basic intelligence factor in the equation, but almost anyone can go further than they think.

quote:

I am confronted by something I don't understamd (like string theory). I work to understand it. Given time, I either do grasp it, or convince myself I've grasped it. I swear there are a couple things I think I understand, but probably don't :)


Everyone has things they think they understand, but don't. The problem is that, since no-one can get inside your head, it's hard to get validation from someone who does. It's similar to the problems of antinomies, in some ways.

It's easy enough to get an idea of string theory, but I've not had the inclination to see if I can actually understand the whole shebang. Physics is interesting, as such, but it isn't a passion of mine anymore, and hasn't been for many years. I'm more fascinated by IT subjects, psychiatry, the Martial Arts, ethics, thinking about life in general, and some other related topics.

quote:

All easier said than done I'm afraid. I'd love to befriend an author and have them help me go through my work. Someone I can really explain everything to and have them help suggest what to focus on fleshing out. My friends tend to get a little overwhelmed :)


Feel free to run things by me. I'm not an author, yet, though I'm working on a book on psychopharmacology in treatment of depression, and two roleplaying games. I've done some short fiction pieces, but none that I've had the vision to complete, so I've stuck to the stuff I know how to complete. Will still take a lot of time, though.

I can't promise I'll be very useful, but I can give it a shot, and I'm not all that easy to overwhelm. I read pretty quickly, too. As a disclaimer, though, if the setting isn't all that interesting to me, it may be harder to get useful input from me, but I'm willing to give it a go.

quote:

This is what I hate about posting before work/bed. There are a dozen posts between me and the one I respond to


That's why I try to follow the guidelines from the Internet standards RFC1855 and RFC2646 in quoting messages.

Of course, since I tend to "work my way" through a thread, and happen to be in a different time zone from the majority of the posters (GMT+1 to be precise, depending on daylight savings), the net result is that a thread that catches my eye will frequently contain one or more clusters of posts from me, which some unfortunately take to be the "Aswad and Aswad show", which it isn't intended as.

I feel that approach makes it easier to address my posts than if I were to post a mega-digest or to leave out the quoting entirely. Plus, it's how I'm used to doing things from newsgroups, bulletin board systems and mail.

Edit: Actually, I think I resolved the 4D problem with a superimposition trick of the stack-of-volumes approach that seems to have removed the quanitization issue, though it remains to be seen if this sticks as an abstraction; thanks for prodding me, anyway.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/6/2007 1:13:53 AM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Tuoni)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 3:43:11 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
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Thompson said of me...
quote:

Now I will agree that you have not made claims of high intelligence preferring instead to allow it to fall upon us like a gentle summer rain that refreshes us all,and allowing those who choose to drink from its pools freely and deeply.


I think you are taking the piss MrT lol...see... no fool me he he he he he
Re the scrubber remark I have forgotton the context, I am glad it is "worrying" you tho' lol 


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 5:07:09 AM   
Tuoni


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Joined: 5/29/2007
From: Canada, Ontario, My head
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

If you were on the outside, you'd probably prefer being on the inside, looking around.

Grass is always greener on the other side.

quote:


At least, not reached short of any notion of godhood and humans ascending to it.

A guy can dream can't he?

quote:


FWIW, I prefer Tad Williams. His settings don't have the same level of detail to them, but his characters are a lot more three-dimensional and vivid. Perhaps Jordan is more realistic in that regard, as there are many people in this world (not a majority, but many) that I fail to perceive as three-dimensional, but in either case, Tad Williams is the more enjoyable writer for me.

For a long time, his standing joke when people asked him how it would end was along the lines of "it all comes tumbling down in horror and bloodshed, and everyone dies terribly". Not sure if the ending can be considered an improvement over that, but I won't say more, so as to not spoil it for you. .

Ooo, sounds good. I've been looking for a new series to read. Love George R. R. Martin also. Only author I know where main characters can die. And stay dead.

quote:

It's easy enough to get an idea of string theory, but I've not had the inclination to see if I can actually understand the whole shebang. Physics is interesting, as such, but it isn't a passion of mine anymore, and hasn't been for many years. I'm more fascinated by IT subjects, psychiatry, the Martial Arts, ethics, thinking about life in general, and some other related topics.

I truthfully only have the faintest idea of string theory. Read about it in a Discover magazine. Want to know more, but I'd have to get into the more basic physics first. Just don't have the foundation to build a real  understanding of string theory on. Dream job is Theoretical Physicist. Only one problem with that: I find basic physics to sull to pay attention too.

quote:

Feel free to run things by me.
. . . .
I can't promise I'll be very useful, but I can give it a shot, and I'm not all that easy to overwhelm.

I might just take you up on that offer. My biggest problem is I talk a whole lot faster than I type. I'll try and PM you a brief rundown of the setting.

quote:

That's why I try to follow the guidelines from the Internet standards RFC1855 and RFC2646 in quoting messages.

I tried reading that. Nearly put me to sleep. Had a laugh on a couple places though, especially in regards to the chain letters. Some good stuff but it reads like it was written for a different world.

quote:

As for 4D objects, enjoy. I have never been able "visualize" or otherwise directly "grasp" 4D objects without the aid of cognitive enhancers, except if relying on time or "stack of volumes" as an abstraction.

Edit: Actually, I think I resolved the 4D problem with a superimposition trick of the stack-of-volumes approach that seems to have removed the quanitization issue, though it remains to be seen if this sticks as an abstraction; thanks for prodding me, anyway.

You might have lost me on this one. The only way I've been able to comprehend 4D objects is what I believe you are refering to as the stack-of-volumes approach. Much like a 2D image is a cross section of a 3D image, a 3D images is a crosssection of a 4D image. I can picture a 4D image, but only as a morphing 3D image at this point.

And cognitive enhancers? I know about smart drugs but I was under the impression that they were still in the experimental/legalization stage.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 7:12:40 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuoni

Grass is always greener on the other side.


~nod~

It starts out with the contrasts, the old "how can there be Self if there is no Other?" saying, then there's the bit about how the brain is AC-coupled, so effectively, what you're seeing is a larger-scale cognitive equivalent to "motorboating", or whatever it is called, when a loudspeaker-membrane moves back and forth its full extension at a low frequency.

At least, that's my take on it.

quote:

quote:

At least, not reached short of any notion of godhood and humans ascending to it.
A guy can dream can't he?


Absolutely. For all I know, it may be an option.

quote:

Ooo, sounds good. I've been looking for a new series to read. Love George R. R. Martin also. Only author I know where main characters can die. And stay dead.


I'd add Tad Williams and Terry Goodkind to that list. They both lose main characters along the way, though I'm not going to spoil anything by telling you which ones that would be.

I'd point out, anyway, that by Robert Jordan's own reckoning, the leading authors in High Fantasy today are a list of (IIRC) less than 10 names, and that this list does include Tad Williams.

Anyone not interested can just skip this, but I'm including a list of some of his work:
  • Caliban's Hour - Call it Shakespeare fanfic. It's a short (200pgs or so) story about the minor character Caliban, from Shakespeare's "The Tempest", who recounts much of his life history over the space of an hour.
  • Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - Epic High Fantasy. No shortcuts with fictional good and evil forces; no flawless characters; no big heroes. Just human drama. Still set in an alternate world, though, with supernatural bits, and covers what some might call the end of days for humanity. First 50 pages are a bit slow, about daily life for one of the main characters, but vital to establishing the setting and that character. Next 100 pages, stuff happening, but still a bit slow, mostly foreshadowing at first. Remaining 3000 pages or so, you get sucked into the very in-setting feeling that everything is going too fast, even if it's going at the right pace, which is just great. Characters include a scullion, a prince, a band of "vikings", a scholar, a fallen priest, the "pope", a village idiot, and various others, all making an interesting read, and fitting into the story at the right places.
  • Otherland - Set in a near future world, as envisioned by a guy with a firm grip on technology, but with a few artistic liberties. Some inexplicable things happen, though, and the (up until that point seperate) characters get stuck in a bizarre series of virtual worlds together, with no ability to disconnect and no idea what is going on (which I won't spoil). Characters include a teacher, an African native (last of his tribe), a serial killer, a kid with progeria, and a MMORPG addict. My favourite bits of prose include a scene from death row, where I started to feel like I couldn't breathe while reading it, and a chase sequence which got my own adrenaline going, culminating in the character having some sort of cardiac problem, which is written in a manner that works well.
  • War of the Flowers - One of the most interesting twists on a faery-tale in the classic folk tradition, but set in the modern era, and centered on a "deadbeat" musician-wannabe whose life gets screwed up early on. If you lived near the Twin Towers, or know someone who does, you might want to pass on this one, as one of the core moments in the book is remarkably similar, and 1st person perspective, though the scene in question was written well before that event, and was altered somewhat after that event to reduce the similarity. I don't know how to describe or classify this book, apart from "great", and I'm glad he didn't pull that scene, because it's absolutely brilliant, and so works. I'm sure you'll agree if you read the book; you'll know the one.
  • Shadowmarch - Epic High Fantasy again. I've just gotten started on this, so I can't say much more than that it's concerned with people living on the outskirt of the civilized world, guarding the bulk of the world from the threats from the Shadowmarches to the north, and that the rest of them have gotten to caught up in their petty bickering to commit the neccessary logistics to support those who deal with that boundary. Meanwhile, the rulers of the Shadowmarches are betting it all on a desperate gambit at just this time.
I'd definitely recommend Memory, Sorrow and Thorn as the first read, though I'd also toss in Caliban's Hour as zeroth or second, as it's so short; then follows the War of the Flowers. Can't say about Otherland vs Shadowmarch, since I've just started on the latter.

quote:

I might just take you up on that offer. My biggest problem is I talk a whole lot faster than I type. I'll try and PM you a brief rundown of the setting.


PM me for my mail address first, perhaps. That may improve your odds a lot, especially with regards to feedback, as the PM system here is ... basic. Depending on various things, I might be able to give you a call at some point, but I've no idea how my schedule will be for the next 3-24 months, so mail is the best bet.

quote:

I tried reading that. Nearly put me to sleep. Had a laugh on a couple places though, especially in regards to the chain letters. Some good stuff but it reads like it was written for a different world.


It was.

In more ways than one.

The gist of it, with regard to the quoting, is: quote infix, so that the flow goes prologue - quote - reply - [...] - quote - reply - epilogue, responding to each subtopic/point after its quoted context, and sticking anything that isn't a reply in the epilogue; use quotes for context, and trim anything that isn't necessary to understand the context; be civil; as a general rule with many exceptions, if you're saying less than you're quoting, you're not adding content.

In short, just a convention to ease communication via standardization (and it is a regular standards document).

quote:

You might have lost me on this one. The only way I've been able to comprehend 4D objects is what I believe you are refering to as the stack-of-volumes approach. Much like a 2D image is a cross section of a 3D image, a 3D images is a crosssection of a 4D image. I can picture a 4D image, but only as a morphing 3D image at this point.


Basically, when you stack 2D slices, you get a 3D image. But it is quantized, in that each 2D image has a finite thickness. An actual 3D image in your mind will have a fine resolution, and appear continous. This can be extended with 3D hyperslices or volumes or whatever you want to call it, except you don't have a readily available way to visualize or otherwise directly grasp / comprehend it.

The "morphing" approach, is to cheat by using time as an added "dimension", and to relate to it normally.

What I figured, is that I can superimpose the 3D slices by allowing them to occupy the same mental space. When I do that, it takes a small glitch, and then it becomes a new structure, with fine / continous granularity and an intangible dimensionality to it. If I can get it to work consistently, I'll start experimenting with rotation to see if it's stable, and if I can extrapolate a 3D projection from that. Post-glitch, it lost the sense of regular 3D properties, so it's a fragile and somewhat disjoint concept at the moment.

quote:

And cognitive enhancers? I know about smart drugs but I was under the impression that they were still in the experimental/legalization stage.


I've been legally treated with so many different drugs that I can comment on the properties of virtually every antidepressant on the Norwegian market, and a lot that were only available by special order. Suffice to say that things were really bad at the time, and that side-effects that would nullify quality of life for others were not always noticeable to me (lost in the noise) back then. One particular professor of psychiatry went above and beyond to get me on my feet again, thankfully.

Long story short, my bloodstream could probably supply a minor third-world country with pharmaceuticals at one point in time, and after I recovered from the worst phase of the illness, my cupboard remained about as well-stocked as the local pharmacy, and I had more familiarity with the drugs and their uses than any GP I've met. Possession and use are legal in Norway, and I did use some things as cognitive enhancers occasionally, which helped immensely with putting my life back together again.

Beyond the "basics", like amphetamines, though, cognitive enhancers are poorly understood.

Mostly because cognitive function is poorly understood. In that, it's experimental. I can't advise anyone on that without knowing them well enough to map my experiences onto their mind and account for the differences.

It has been my experience that CNS stimulants, a mixed partial µ-agonist / κ-antagonist, or a serious bout of sleep-deprivation, followed by hypnagogic hallucinations (I have always had those when falling asleep; read up on narcolepsy, if curious, though I don't have narcolepsy per se), are the things that are useful to me in that sense.

I'd never reccomend that anyone experiment with anything of the sort, though, unless they are extensively familiar with the pharmacology and the effects on the mind and body, or are operating under the supervision of a skilled professional. And I'd never reccomend using them recreationally, though I don't neccessarily see any harm in people choosing to do so. I haven't used them recreationally, though.

Either way, since then, I've forgotten more about psychopharmacology than most trained psychiatrists in Norway will ever know unless they're primarily involved in research. Some docs still occasionally seek my advice on it though, and I've done whatever I can to help out people who are in a place where the meds appear to be a viable aid to recovery. I don't subscribe to the notion that meds will solve a problem, but I do subscribe to the notion that they can help someone who is past the point of helping themselves, or who are trying to hold on to jobs etc and don't have the extra capacity to deal with their problems without letting go of that, and that they have some additional, valid short-term uses, such as an adjunct to treating insomnia, etc.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Tuoni)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 8:14:47 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thompson said of me...
quote:

Now I will agree that you have not made claims of high intelligence preferring instead to allow it to fall upon us like a gentle summer rain that refreshes us all,and allowing those who choose to drink from its pools freely and deeply.


I think you are taking the piss MrT lol...see... no fool me he he he he he
Re the scrubber remark I have forgotton the context, I am glad it is "worrying" you tho' lol 



Seeks:
Golden showers are not my venue.
Gawd it has me in such a state I loose sleep(but only when I am awake).
thompson


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 2:27:30 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Phonics have always made more sense for me, as well. And I think it would work out well for dyslexics, too; living with one, I've observed that she frequently spells things in by the way she'd speak them aloud, which causes more trouble in English than it does in Norwegian. Standard Norwegian isn't far off from a phonetic pronounciation of the Latin alphabet, though the letters Æ (ae; /æ/, /ɛ/), Ø (oe; /ø/), and Å (aa; /ɔ/) are added; even the pulmonic ingressive is fairly obvious. ISTR that English has about 50 or so distinct phonemes. The absence of a phonetic orthography in Enlish, and the huge drift that's occured between the spelling and the pronounciation, makes it tricky to get right for non-native speakers. I screw up regularly.



I b huked on fonix.

What is interesting about English is that it went through a long period (Saxon, influence of the Romance languages, etc) where dictionaries and the like did not really exist.  People would want to write a letter, and they would eventually write the way they thought the word might sound.  It was only much further on in time, the last couple of centuries, where there was any attempt at codification of spellings, grammar, punctuation, etc.

Many words were rewritten from whatever to whatever.  An example would be the word "enough"

O.E. genog, a common Gmc. formation (cf. O.N. gnogr, O.Fris. enoch, Goth. ganohs, Ger. genug), from ge- "with, together" (also a participial, collective, intensive, or perfective prefix) + root -nah, from PIE *nak- "reach, attain" (cf. Skt. asnoti "reaches," Hittite ninikzi "lifts, raises," Lith. nesti "to bear, carry," L. nancisci "to obtain"). The most prominent among the surviving examples of O.E. ge-, the equivalent of L. com- and Mod.Ger. ge-, from PIE *kom- "beside, near, by, with." Understated sense of have had enough "have had too much" was in O.E. (which relied heavily on double negatives and understatement). Colloquial 'nough said is attested from 1839. Archaic enow is from the O.E. pl. adj. and was standard as the plural of enough until late 18c
Find somebody who has limited education, writing a letter to a friend, with no real idea how to spell the word.  
Eventually there came a codified spelling that 4th graders are now tormented to learn how it.

You made a comment about using phonics making more sense.  The Japanese written language is basically a phonics-like system.

As a bit of background.  They had a codified language untrammelled by foreign words 1000 years ago.  Then somebody thought it would be a great idea to write something down.  So they took the Chinese character set, stuck their own meanings on the characters, and used it.  An example of this is the character for a woman, and when you have 3 women the character means "trouble."

They also developed a syllable (phonic) list to spell with.  In other words, each of the following syllables has it's own (hiragana) character.  NI HO 'N GO (Japanese language). 

A word for something foreign to Japan is written in katakana.  So the word KO HI (coffee) is written in katakana with the extra character to lengthen out the vowel sounds.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 4:13:37 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

"Don't feed the trolls" can be generalized into "Don't take the bait".

I've no gripe with either of you, so let's look at it this way:

* CL, you haven't called me an idiot yet, despite the apparent 1.6σ difference, so for the moment, I'm allowing myself to assume you don't consider me one. Please, then, consider that reading an infinite regression series of bait,response,... is hurting my brain as much as the frictions you describe in dealing with society in general.


I'd suggest enjoying these.   Perhaps I'm just arrogant, but I think silly people are pleasant to have around.  I guess I've learned to take things with amusement- don't know how I'd have survived this long without.

And, no, I don't view you as an idiot.  I can be impressed with how well studied you can be in areas.  First guy I've seen to use a standard deviation symbol on a forum, too.  :P

I love phonics.  I always fear that, if I spend much time memorizing things, such as spellings (which, I assure you, murders me in foreign langauge classes), I'd sacarfice some ability to think in the process.  I'm not sure if this is entirely founded, but I'm phobic of spending time memorizing arbitary things.  Then, when you get down to it, you get things close enough for comprehension, more often than not, so it just works out for me.

Edit:  Took out part of the backquote.   (Made it look like the "Dunce" comment was aimmed at you, Aswad.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 6/6/2007 4:16:07 PM >

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 7:54:12 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

What is interesting about English is that it went through a long period [...] where dictionaries and the like did not really exist. [...] would eventually write the way they thought the word might sound.  It was only much further on in time [...] there was any attempt at codification [...]


~nod~

I've also, repeatedly, pointed out to the spelling police that, for those of us who have grown up with other languages, one major hurdle is the great vowel shift that occured, which threw everything off. Basically every other PIE language, with the exception of the romance languages, has some variation of Classic Latin pronounciation. There are minor exceptions, but they are generally consistent.

Then there's the thing about transliterating some 50+ sounds into 26 characters, with some instances being transliterated differently from others, due to having been formalized at different points in time.

Not worth debating- but worth mentioning, however- is that there are differences between British English and other dialects that rarely compound the problem, but does tend to sometimes end up with people (like me) mixing the two.

quote:

You made a comment about using phonics making more sense.  The Japanese written language is basically a phonics-like system.


I'm familiar with hirakana and katakana. I love them. In some ways, they are perfect for building lots of synthetic languages that end up sounding melodious, and which can have any number of entirely regular, well-sounding, but still esoteric, forms of declension, conjuration, and so forth. You could easily set up a dictionary (or, as I prefer, a "morphemary", which is probably a bogus word) and then do any of the grammatical modifications by following a tabulated kana vertically or horizontally for any given mora.

I'm familiar with the status of Japanese as a language isolate, and some of how the language changed after being exposed to the Chinese mainland. A lot of the nuances of the language were lost, it would appear to me, although I'm no linguist.

My pronounciation is intelligible, but it needs work, particularly getting the mora timing right.

I haven't even picked up the language itself yet, despite it's intuitive and consistent nature, because I haven't been able to find anyone that can teach me the dialect I'm looking for, along with how to intentionally vary the sociolect.

Basically, I'd like to be able to vary the sociolect across the spectrum from a high-ranking samurai addressing a female slave, to the opposite, with the nuances in between; mostly just so I could make a BDSM-specific set of sociolects. ~lol~

As for the issue of silent vowels (e.g. -u), I am of divided opinions as to whether that should be a matter of feminine vs masculine or submissive vs dominant.

And I prefer the aesthetic of e.g. "kokoro" over "shin".

I do rather like, though, that the "sound" of it can, along with the social rank issues, be varied from highly melodious and harmonious to competing with Klingon for harshness.




_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 414
RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 7:59:15 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Perhaps I'm just arrogant ...


Not you ... truly? What do you suppose gave it away?  

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 8:52:37 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'd suggest enjoying these.   Perhaps I'm just arrogant, but I think silly people are pleasant to have around.  I guess I've learned to take things with amusement- don't know how I'd have survived this long without.


I have a sense of humor. I think. Not everyone agrees with me on that.

It's just that it is a "change of mode" for me, and I like getting engrossed in the subject matter, meaning that the bickering gets in the way no matter how I read it. I can switch to humor-mode, and laugh at it, and then switch back, but then the continuity is lost. Or I can read it as noise, which is grating.

I'm not going to argue the point, though. I'll survive either way; just my attempt at mediating; it's hard to gauge whether everyone is on the same page with regard to considering it humorous. It would be rather pointless to aggravate anyone.

quote:

And, no, I don't view you as an idiot.  I can be impressed with how well studied you can be in areas.  First guy I've seen to use a standard deviation symbol on a forum, too. :P


Glad to hear it.

I'm not all that well studied, though, I just stop to pick up as much as I care to every time I encounter something interesting that relies on something I'm not familiar with. That means I frequently just cover the general idea, while I sometimes go to the step of learning everything I can get my hands on.

With regard to physics, that means I have a basic concept of p-branes, how compact dimensions come about, can find the symmetry of one model- with 3 space-like dimensions and 3 time-like ones- aesthetical, and can play around with (but do little with) the idea of asserting that |∑(i=1, Ds+Dt)vd|=c (which I can't even remember if holds). It's a topic that's interesting, but the work involved in picking it up to a useful extent is greater than the interest it holds for me.

With regard to math, it means I have a grasp of more concepts than I can use, but can use enough to get by in most programming- and business logic-tasks, and that I consider Euler's Identity to be beautiful and profound. I completed Mathematical Methods at standard level, but work got in the way of taking it beyond that. It's something I pick up as I need it, mostly because the books and online sources tend to be poorly suited for my way of thinking, which is top-down dominant hierarchial, rather than linear, and not very verbal.

Similarly, in other fields, I have woefully incomplete knowledge, but I can usually follow things. In some areas, though, I would consider myself fairly competent, mostly pertaining to systems engineering, security, programming and psychopharmacology.

quote:

I love phonics. [...] murders me in foreign langauge classes [...] I'm phobic of spending time memorizing arbitary things.


When doing a foreign language, a method that was suggested to me, and seems fairly reasonable, is that you start out by memorizing (yeah, I know, but there's usually a kind of pattern to it) the basic irregular words (most languages have them; e.g. pronouns, some verbs, clitics, etc.). Then you flesh out your vocabulary to about 300 words, and forget about the grammar. Keep memorization to 15 minutes at a time, and don't try to work on it two days in a row. Start working your way through basic texts, highlighting stuff you'll need to go back for. In short order, you should be getting to the point where you can follow the gist of things, and you've bootstrapped the analytic process from a real text. Then you go back for words that you didn't get, and retry. Soon, you will get a feel for the grammar, quite apart from the formal analysis and the linguists' attempts at sticking the round pegs in the square holes, and you can upgrade to more complicated texts. Try to keep an eye out for how certain words are treated as one, but obviously contain two or more morphemes (obviously, in that their meaning can not be atomic to your mind), and think about relations like that.

At least, that's how I remember the advice.

I find it useful to keep an eye on the history of a language, because it gives me a lot more room for abstraction, and tells me more about what I'm doing with it. For instance, having a grasp of PIE helps with Latin, which helps with Romance languages, and by knowing the difference between the two, non-Romance PIE-derivates are easier to absorb as well. If you're really going to use the languages for anything (as a physics-person, you'll probably want to master Russian, Chinese, Indian and German), then I'd suggest doing two language families at a time, interlaced on 1-day intervals to avoid working with something similar on consecutive days, and studying two languages in the same family at a time. The basics may need to be done seperately, though, but this should work when you have the basics down. I think you should be able to absorb most European languages and a handful of the Slavic ones at the same time, for instance.

With regard to other aspects of memorization, pronounciation is mostly learned once for a language family. Any non-Romance European language will tend to follow the same basic pronounciation, and transliterations of foreign alphabets usually conform better to that convention than to the English conventions.

As for alphabets, just play with them.

The Hebrew alphabet made no sense to me at first, and I didn't have any idea how to get my fine motor bits to do it, so I had a look at the Aramaic and Phonecian alphabets, and toyed around with ways to make some form of handwritable mixup of these. Eventually, I kind of "got" the Hebrew alphabet, since my own playing with its origins tended to evolve in that same direction, and was built on a motor skill foundation I already had, so I could relate elements that originally didn't seem to make sense.

Also, where the corpus is limited, or the language widely disparate, try to avoid using translations where you can, and definitely no dictionaries unless you absolutely must. At least, not past the basics. Japanese and Old Egyptian make no sense if trying to learn the meanings of words from a dictionary, and the translations are frequently not all that useful, since they tend to either give a direct-ish translation (hello, dictionary, again), or an interpreted translation (which isn't very useful, unless the language is comparable). In working with it more "directly", you end up seeing the patterns in a different way, and analyses that even appear unthinkable to many will sometimes become borderline self-evident.

You may want to familiarize yourself with the Safir-Worf (sp?) hypothesis, if you haven't already. As an individual who prides himself, at least to some extent, on intellectual ability, and the capacity for grasping abstract thoughts, the idea of gaining further tools, and indeed paradigms, for thinking about things should be very appealing, I think.

Also, if you're not doing that yet, I'd consider looking into koryu martial arts to get a bit of experience in how to relate to things through interoception (yes, proper word for a class of senses). Some also find it useful in grasping what has been called the void, mu, no-mind, one-ness, the Zone, or whatever, which is useful in "chilling out", as you then disconnect the verbal part of your mind, including the abstractions that do not relate to the world around you, and gain a sense of calmness and immediacy of experience that nicely balances the usual mindset.

Sorry for going on forever.

My aptitude for brevity is on par with that of Robert Jordan (6K pages main series so far).

Edit: Summary - True learning is discovery and experience. Don't discount simply playing with something as a valid path to that.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/6/2007 9:03:41 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 11:24:01 PM   
bbw2switch


Posts: 59
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From: toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

Genius's are insane because they can't find anyone intelligent to talk to?:)

yes. you nailed it.
or at least, you did for me ...

that's why the computer is my BEST friend ...
~~ pats my monitor gently, caresses my mouse and grobes my keyboard ... ~~~





_____________________________

i am already deranged .. just waiting for CM to catch up..so don't think of me as a "newbie"

i am mlady the one!!! the only!!!! the original! erm .. just not on this site ...
http://mlady.covenspace.com/

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/6/2007 11:48:38 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I'm familiar with the status of Japanese as a language isolate, and some of how the language changed after being exposed to the Chinese mainland. A lot of the nuances of the language were lost, it would appear to me, although I'm no linguist.



My Japanese language / Japanese history professor made an interesting point.  From a linguistic point of view, if Japanese has any linguistic relative on the planet (and the comparison is tenuous) it would be Finnish.  I pointed out that we really do not have any clear idea how far the Vikings sailed.

quote:



Basically, I'd like to be able to vary the sociolect across the spectrum from a high-ranking samurai addressing a female slave, to the opposite, with the nuances in between; mostly just so I could make a BDSM-specific set of sociolects. ~lol~



Japanese is actually a perfect language for BDSM.  The verb tenses and sentence structures are extremely rigid in terms of usage based on one's social status.  The example I frequently use are the various verbs "To Give"

Sashiagemasu - I give to a) my superior, b) my emperor, c) my God, d) woman to man, e) child to adult, etc.  A submissive would use sashiagemasu almost always, based on their heirarchical culture.

Agemasu - I give to a social equal.  Friend, Man to man or woman to woman or child to child.

Narimasu - Man giving to woman, man or woman giving to child, God giving to man, Dominant giving to submissive.

Additionally, it has a built in vagueness about speaking to/about people.

If I was going to indicate to person C something about person B in a conversation, I would use...

Dore wa Person B desu.  The literal translation of this statement is "This side is Person B."  That way if Person B takes offense to the statement, Person C can back out of saying it by insisting that it was not actually Person B they were speaking of.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/7/2007 1:46:12 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Perhaps I'm just arrogant ...


Not you ... truly? What do you suppose gave it away?  


Oh, come, now!  Are you still hopping on my cock?  (Your words, not mine!)

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Profile   Post #: 419
RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/7/2007 2:15:00 AM   
mons


Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
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greetings

i am not insane nor is my twin or our childern and we are concern genius's
is this what you meant ?
mons

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