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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane?


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 10:51:11 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Humans are not capable of much free thought.  We're utterly stupid wretches.  Myself, I haven't thought in years-
This would be quite obvious to the most casual observer.


I'm too afraid to- not that my grades in the university would reflect this.  Know why?  They don't ask you to think.  You spit out the same junk.
It would seem that you and I went to different universities.



Meh.  The first part's explained in the combination of your embitterment and disconcern for the idea of what independent thought is.
The second is simply from the latter.

Consider my point.  What did you actually think of in college?  Seriously- one thing that wasn't just a combination of other things you've been taught.


CuriousLord:
It would appear that in addition to an inability to express yourself clearly in the english language you are also a mind reader....how clever
thompson

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 11:02:01 AM   
girl4you2


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Ed.
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
free thought...not that my grades in the university would reflect this.  Know why?  They don't ask you to think.  You spit out the same junk.


too sadly, this is for the most part true at any level of education in this country. critical thinking isn't encouraged; it takes up too much time. it's easier to simply use the regurgitation method. any outside thought is exactly that; outside, on your own. thankfully there are some who do this, but it's not encouraged nor is it rewarded, other than intrinsically.

_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 11:13:17 AM   
Aswad


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Fast reply to nobody in particular.

This, unfortunately, relates to the original topic at hand, rather than the current topic, but I think both can exist in this thread.

It's just a random thought I had while half-asleep, so take it for what it's worth.

Observations:

A lot of intelligent people have good memory; I myself used to be able to recount pages of text word-by-word, events frame-by-frame and thought processes in their individual stages. During depression, if I use phenobarbital, my mood brightens, but my memory latency is increased and my "encoding bandwidth" is decreased; this is because it opens GABA receptors throughout the brain, including the hippocampus, parahippocampal gyrus and amygdala. Certain kinds of depression, as well as various other mental illnesses, are associated with hypofunctioning GABA systems, including temporal lobe hyperactivity and the "ring of fire" pattern. Memory is also acknowledged as being very fundamental to personality, both formation and the long-term stability of such, as well as behaviour and perception (particularly perception bias).

Hypothesis:

Part of the frustration and occasional elements of mental illness observed in some "overly" intelligent people may result from excessive memory formation, and the resultant trend for cognitive processes to pull in more information than usual. This allows patterns to be detected that wouldn't usually be picked up, as well as showing local features with the appearance of a pattern as actually having none. It also allows certain negative elements to be recalled more accurately and more frequently, although it may do the same for positive elements. Furthermore, it means cognitive stressors are not as easily relinquished as usual; where most people can gloss over some things, and forget they happened, these "odd ones out" cannot. Prefrontal cortex activity (reduced in e.g. ADHD, ASD and Bipolar) may account for some of the differences in how this occurs. As a result, these people may experience cognitive contexts that would not "normally" occur, and their personalities and perceptions may be (beyond their conscious control) twisted in a way that conforms to one or more definitions of mental illness.

Conclusion:

None, so far; I haven't even bothered formulating a more specific, testable hypothesis (or, rather series of testable hypotheses that support the broader hypothesis). Just tossing this out for consideration.

Input?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 11:45:04 AM   
thompsonx


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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Fast reply to nobody in particular.

This, unfortunately, relates to the original topic at hand, rather than the current topic, but I think both can exist in this thread.

It's just a random thought I had while half-asleep, so take it for what it's worth.

Observations:

A lot of intelligent people have good memory; I myself used to be able to recount pages of text word-by-word, events frame-by-frame and thought processes in their individual stages. During depression, if I use phenobarbital, my mood brightens, but my memory latency is increased and my "encoding bandwidth" is decreased; this is because it opens GABA receptors throughout the brain, including the hippocampus, parahippocampal gyrus and amygdala. Certain kinds of depression, as well as various other mental illnesses, are associated with hypofunctioning GABA systems, including temporal lobe hyperactivity and the "ring of fire" pattern. Memory is also acknowledged as being very fundamental to personality, both formation and the long-term stability of such, as well as behaviour and perception (particularly perception bias).

Hypothesis:

Part of the frustration and occasional elements of mental illness observed in some "overly" intelligent people may result from excessive memory formation, and the resultant trend for cognitive processes to pull in more information than usual. This allows patterns to be detected that wouldn't usually be picked up, as well as showing local features with the appearance of a pattern as actually having none. It also allows certain negative elements to be recalled more accurately and more frequently, although it may do the same for positive elements. Furthermore, it means cognitive stressors are not as easily relinquished as usual; where most people can gloss over some things, and forget they happened, these "odd ones out" cannot. Prefrontal cortex activity (reduced in e.g. ADHD, ASD and Bipolar) may account for some of the differences in how this occurs. As a result, these people may experience cognitive contexts that would not "normally" occur, and their personalities and perceptions may be (beyond their conscious control) twisted in a way that conforms to one or more definitions of mental illness.

Conclusion:

None, so far; I haven't even bothered formulating a more specific, testable hypothesis (or, rather series of testable hypotheses that support the broader hypothesis). Just tossing this out for consideration.

Input?


Aswad:
When you do jot them down I would be interested in reading them.
thompson

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 12:28:37 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

Ed.
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
free thought...not that my grades in the university would reflect this.  Know why?  They don't ask you to think.  You spit out the same junk.


too sadly, this is for the most part true at any level of education in this country. critical thinking isn't encouraged; it takes up too much time. it's easier to simply use the regurgitation method. any outside thought is exactly that; outside, on your own. thankfully there are some who do this, but it's not encouraged nor is it rewarded, other than intrinsically.


precisely why everyone thinks c is the speed limit, and why tesla went unknown and is first beginning to become known now!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to girl4you2)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 2:01:02 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Sinergy: thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Albert Einstein

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.


A genius "has no common sense" because most geniuses, common, think things through.  This is contrary to the notion of "common sense".  It's not, as you said, because they're somehow lacking in some area to balance out their noted cognative abilities.  They just assume less and think more.


I think the quote is misattributed. If not, and you can source it, please do everyone a favour and go add that source to the "Unsourced quotes" section of the Wikiquotes section on Albert Einstein. Don't get me wrong, I love the quote and use it a fair bit, and it doesn't matter who said it, it's still a brilliant quote; but it'd be nice to have it properly sourced. Whoever said it, deserves kudos for coming up with it.


quote:

ORGINIAL: Quotations by Einstein

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.
Quoted in E T Bell Mathematics, Queen and Servant of the Sciences. 1952.


Yeah, it's Einstein.  I can apprieciate you wanting the appropriate source named.

I'll try to run by it soon.  This evening's a bit packed.  I have a laptop on Wi-Fi that lets me answer posts during meals or breaks, but I think this is going to require a bit of catch-up reading and consideration.  Actually, I was meaning to ask for your prospective on a project I've been working on- that'll come as a private message later.

Right now, I'm doing this thing where I can't sleep at nights, so I'm staying up every night until I can fall asleep at a decent hour.  I can definately ge the sleep issue.  I hope yours works soon.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 2:13:47 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

CuriousLord:
It would appear that in addition to an inability to express yourself clearly in the english language you are also a mind reader....how clever


Oh, no, I can express myself reasonably well English, so far as I freign myself to be in context, though I'm afraid expression is limited to a particular viewer through his own ability to intepret.  I'm afraid that there's not much I can do if you're simply hardfound to understand English.

Afterall, while one may burden the speaker with building some conceptual base for the audience in introduction, how might a speaker be required to provide basis for a dunce?

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 3:04:28 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

CuriousLord:
It would appear that in addition to an inability to express yourself clearly in the english language you are also a mind reader....how clever


Oh, no, I can express myself reasonably well English, so far as I freign myself to be in context, though I'm afraid expression is limited to a particular viewer through his own ability to intepret.  I'm afraid that there's not much I can do if you're simply hardfound to understand English.

Afterall, while one may burden the speaker with building some conceptual base for the audience in introduction, how might a speaker be required to provide basis for a dunce?

CuriousLord:
Since your posts indicate that you consider all but yourself to be a dunce one might reasonably expect you to have figured that out by now. 
For now it would be a favor to all of us here who read your post if you might avail yourself of the spell check feature provided by CM.  Although it would have been of no help to you in your post #386...the word you were looking for is perspective not prospective.  It appears that you really are as smart as you claim.
thompson

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 3:05:18 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

Yeah, it's Einstein.  I can apprieciate you wanting the appropriate source named.


I've added a source statement to the WP page, but I'll leave it for them to put it in the right spot.

quote:

I'll try to run by it soon.  This evening's a bit packed.  I have a laptop on Wi-Fi that lets me answer posts during meals or breaks, but I think this is going to require a bit of catch-up reading and consideration.


Thanks, it's appreciated. Don't sweat it, though.

quote:

Actually, I was meaning to ask for your prospective on a project I've been working on- that'll come as a private message later.


~nod~

I'll have a look at it when it arrives, if I'm still up. If not, I'll have a look at it in the morning.

quote:

Right now, I'm doing this thing where I can't sleep at nights, so I'm staying up every night until I can fall asleep at a decent hour.  I can definately ge the sleep issue.  I hope yours works soon.


My sleep will work out in short order. There's just been a few things keeping me a bit wired lately, and I haven't been so deprived of it that I've wanted to use meds for it.

Thanks for the concern.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 3:21:23 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

When you do jot them down I would be interested in reading them.


If and when I do, I'll try to keep that in mind.

There's just so much stuff going through my head sometimes, that I can't finish all of it.

Thus, rather than letting the ideas and thoughts go to waste, I try to put them somewhere so they can (hopefully) be of some use to someone, whether as inspiration or as something else. Then I concentrate on a few of them that I try to bring to fruitition. This one may end up in the latter category, depending on how my schedule works out. It takes a bit of thinking to do anything useful about it, though.

If I decide to take the offer to study psychiatry in the regular way (med school + specialization), or if they get around to offering a customized study (like the ones they have in the US; just the stuff you need for psychiatry, like endocrinology and cardiovascular stuff, but without stuff like STDs and how to treat burn victims (our local specialty) and such), then I'll probably do something about it. No point in going that route and not publishing something; even as an amateur, I've been more successful than most professionals so far, so I figure a complete education in the field should give some grounds for actually doing something really useful.

It seemed plausible that there may be a connection, though.

On a related note, if anyone here is looking into those kinds of things, high-school shootings in conjunction with SSRIs brought up a couple of interesting thoughts, quite aside from the tie-in with akathisia and such: SSRIs cause downregulation of the central β-adrenergic system, which is involved in context priority during memory encoding, and it is plausible that this may induce a reframing effect similar to certain experimental psychoterapies that use conscious reframing.

Basically, whenever our brain calls up a memory, it tends to store a new copy of it. If you bring up a traumatic memory, and reframe it in a better way, the stored copy is less traumatic. If you do this for all "paths" that lead to the original memory, you get closure. Or, at least, that's the theory behind reframing.

How this applies to SSRIs and one more potential tie-in with high-school shootings, is that these people are frequently in a mental space where the new context will be worse than the old one. Thus, traumatic memories keep getting formed. But at the same time, old memories with positive context are unintentionally, and continously, reframed in a flatter, low-impact version, potentially causing a lot of the good sides of life to get "lost" over time, given the small volume of memory present to that point, while the negative stimuli remain in effect.

My thought was that this loss of positive things to "hold on to" may aid in pushing people over the top, as they don't see quite as clearly what they, and others, stand to lose. It becomes a confusing, negative mess with no redeeming value to life. That certainly fits with some of what I experienced with the SSRIs.

Add the tendency to occasionally cause akathisia, a kind of restlessness or "need" to "take action", and you might have part of the recipe for disaster there. For me, I wouldn't suggest using SSRIs on kids, generally, though there are exceptions. And I have some alternatives in mind, but I doubt they'll ever be adopted into mainstream practice. Well, "never" is a big word, but I think the kids will be allowed to smoke pot in their spare time before the docs go with my suggestions there.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 3:28:07 PM   
seeksfemslave


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One poster in particular , who believes himself to be highly intelligent, loads his posts with lots of rarified technical terms which
are most unlikely to be understood by the average CM reader.
Is this an intelligent thing to do ?
or
Does it demonstrate intelligence to try to communicate in such a way that your audience cannot follow your arguments.
Only arskin.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 391
RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 5:06:11 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

One poster in particular , who believes himself to be highly intelligent, loads his posts with lots of rarified technical terms which are most unlikely to be understood by the average CM reader. Is this an intelligent thing to do ? or Does it demonstrate intelligence to try to communicate in such a way that your audience cannot follow your arguments. Only arskin.


If that was directed at me, I'm sorry. My fault.

If not, ignore the rest of this post.

I got the impression that the average readers had lost interest by now, and was mostly replying to tx about it. I could restate it in different terms, if it holds any interest for you. It was neither intelligent nor unintelligent; it was casual. Yes, bad habit, I know, but that kind of terminology has snuck into my casual-use vocabulary, from spending way too much time on that stuff. Ordinarily, I try to keep my posts less casual, and more colloquial, but I slip up.

Ergo, sue me. I'm human, and 26, my quota for mistakes is not yet full.

The post was not an argument. It was some random on-topic musing. If I got which one you referred to, that is.

And I don't believe myself to be one thing or the other. Intelligent is for you to judge, as you see fit. I'm not highly intelligent compared to the people I use as my reference, but I'm not dumb either; that's as far as my personal self-assessment goes, and it suffices.

As for any problems in communication, I slip up on the basic levels of communication sometimes. And other times, it's me having dealt with something in my own language a moment before, and my mind not having made the switch back to English yet. I'm not good with colloquialisms in my own language (think of me a bit like Data from ST:TNG in that regard, if you're familiar with that TV-series), and I'm even less good with the colloquialisms used in English, beyond what I've been exposed to through movies and forums.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 5:15:50 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

One poster in particular , who believes himself to be highly intelligent, loads his posts with lots of rarified technical terms which
are most unlikely to be understood by the average CM reader.
Is this an intelligent thing to do ?
or
Does it demonstrate intelligence to try to communicate in such a way that your audience cannot follow your arguments.
Only arskin.

Seeks:
You have never told me the exact translation into "american" what you meant when you said **  find a lovely "scrubber" to give your bush a right old beating. **

Now I will agree that you have not made claims of high intelligence preferring instead to allow it to fall upon us like a gentle summer rain that refreshes us all,and allowing those who choose to drink from its pools freely and deeply.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/5/2007 5:21:15 PM >

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 5:31:11 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

CuriousLord:
It would appear that in addition to an inability to express yourself clearly in the english language you are also a mind reader....how clever


Oh, no, I can express myself reasonably well English, so far as I freign myself to be in context, though I'm afraid expression is limited to a particular viewer through his own ability to intepret.  I'm afraid that there's not much I can do if you're simply hardfound to understand English.

Afterall, while one may burden the speaker with building some conceptual base for the audience in introduction, how might a speaker be required to provide basis for a dunce?

CuriousLord:
Since your posts indicate that you consider all but yourself to be a dunce one might reasonably expect you to have figured that out by now. 
For now it would be a favor to all of us here who read your post if you might avail yourself of the spell check feature provided by CM.  Although it would have been of no help to you in your post #386...the word you were looking for is perspective not prospective.  It appears that you really are as smart as you claim.
thompson



well he thinks c, that is the speed of light is the speed limit and it would take infinite energy to go faster.  yet lemw, that is the scalar stuff i have been talking about in several posts is c + .5*c times faster and there is not change in energy.  It reminds me when "established" science thought nothing could break the sound barrier and did not know that bullets broke it for years.  lol


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 5:48:47 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well he thinks c, that is the speed of light is the speed limit and it would take infinite energy to go faster.  yet lemw, that is the scalar stuff i have been talking about in several posts is c + .5*c times faster and there is not change in energy.  It reminds me when "established" science thought nothing could break the sound barrier and did not know that bullets broke it for years.  lol



Real0ne:
I was under the impression that the whip when cracked was breaking the sound barrier and that this was a well understood phenomena before I was born.  We had prop driven aircraft during WWII who broke the sound barrier in dives but the physics had not yet been fully developed to design aircraft for those sorts of forces.  With the advent of jet propulsion the airframe design to support the increased power was developed from research on propeller tip speed in high rpm engines.  If you have data that is contrary to this please share it with me for I am most interested in this area of physics.
thompson

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 6:05:47 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Since your posts indicate that you consider all but yourself to be a dunce one might reasonably expect you to have figured that out by now. 


Actually, this instance of "dunce" comment was specifically referring to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

For now it would be a favor to all of us here who read your post if you might avail yourself of the spell check feature provided by CM.  Although it would have been of no help to you in your post #386...the word you were looking for is perspective not prospective.  It appears that you really are as smart as you claim.


I mixed up a word, off by a letter, basically out of being careless.  That must mean that all my logical points are now invalid.

And, hey.  I'll start using spell check when you start using commas.  (Incase I misspelt it, as I really am a phonics kid, it's that little period-like mark with a tail.  Sort of like a tadpole.)

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 6:08:13 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well he thinks c, that is the speed of light is the speed limit and it would take infinite energy to go faster.  yet lemw, that is the scalar stuff i have been talking about in several posts is c + .5*c times faster and there is not change in energy.  It reminds me when "established" science thought nothing could break the sound barrier and did not know that bullets broke it for years.  lol


You would die a happy man if I renounced relativity and just ceded this, wouldn't you?  :P

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 6:28:06 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Actually, this instance of "dunce" comment was specifically referring to you.
Since your post indicate that you feel all but yourself to be a dunce, one might have thought you would have figured out how to speak to all dunces.



I mixed up a word, off by a letter, basically out of being careless.  That must mean that all my logical points are now invalid.
Logical points are not invalidated by lack of the ability to spell.  Your position concerning your superior intelligence is called into questions when you fail to communicate clearly and blame it on carelessness.


And, hey.  I'll start using spell check when you start using commas.  (Incase I misspelt it, as I really am a phonics kid, it's that little period-like mark with a tail.  Sort of like a tadpole.)
Not having attained the high intellectual plane that you operate on, spelling and punctuation errors are excusable in a dunce.  If CM offered a punctuation check I most assuredly would avail my self of it.  I would like to thank you for calling my deficiencies to my attention and I will make every effort to make my self understood  in the future.
 
Name calling has always been the hallmark of those who operate on the high intellectual plane that you claim as your habitat.



< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/5/2007 6:35:50 PM >

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 6:44:43 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Humans are not capable of much free thought.  We're utterly stupid wretches.  Myself, I haven't thought in years- I'm too afraid to- not that my grades in the university would reflect this.  Know why?  They don't ask you to think.  You spit out the same junk.


I think you once indicated that you went to a mid-range school. What I might respectfully suggest is that you attend a better school, with more highly paid, highly skilled professors, before taking this stand. At most better institutions, the expectation is that memorization works will be done on your own time, leaving class time for abstract thinking.

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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/5/2007 7:12:47 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well he thinks c, that is the speed of light is the speed limit and it would take infinite energy to go faster.  yet lemw, that is the scalar stuff i have been talking about in several posts is c + .5*c times faster and there is not change in energy.  It reminds me when "established" science thought nothing could break the sound barrier and did not know that bullets broke it for years.  lol



Real0ne:
I was under the impression that the whip when cracked was breaking the sound barrier and that this was a well understood phenomena before I was born.  We had prop driven aircraft during WWII who broke the sound barrier in dives but the physics had not yet been fully developed to design aircraft for those sorts of forces.  With the advent of jet propulsion the airframe design to support the increased power was developed from research on propeller tip speed in high rpm engines.  If you have data that is contrary to this please share it with me for I am most interested in this area of physics.
thompson



nope not me!  i agreee with you on every point!  what yousaid does not conflict with what i said at all that i can see in fact supports it imo.

The prop tip speed was the one that bothered me when i first found about it as it never occured to me a prop could spin that fast!  I found that fascinating.

the only thing i question is the whip because the speed of sound is  roughly 1128ft/sec at sea level and that would be some serious speed and if that is correct that would be even more fascinating then the prop issues!


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