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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 7:35:09 PM   
MistressDolly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

This thread probably belongs in Ask a Submissive but I will pop it here because it relates to femdom relationships. 

[Please note: this thread is about sexual D/s, not service or friendship based D/s]

Reading this forum, you would get the impression that a Domme is a nurturing, considerate and kind women who puts her submissive's health and happiness before her own.  She "takes her responsibilities" as a Domme seriously and truly treasures his gift of submission.  She never, ever does anything without his willing consent. 

That is very nice. It sits well with mainstream social conventions that women should be "nurturing" and "unselfish".  It is - to my mind - virtually vanilla and that might be a good thing if you are trying to sustain a long term D/s relationship.

BUT

Take a look at any BDSM Femdom porn and what do we see?  Evil Mommies and Bitch Goddesses.  Deliberate merciless cruelty to men.  Imagery of cold, mocking and sadistic women strutting around their dungeons in skimpy black fetishwear, weilding instruments of torture.  Not once have I seen or read Femdom porn that included negotiation, consent or safewords.

And you know what?  I love it!!  BDSM porn is hot! 

I bet porn is what got most of us here.  We were exposed to Femdom fantasies and it made us horny as all hell.  We might be socially abnormal (even "sick"?), but we are not alone.  Millions of us abolutely love Femdom porn.

Which leads me to my question:  WHY do we find female cruelty to men so erotic?  I am not saying we act out - or should act out - these Femdom fantasies, but why do we get our rocks off reading about women being really nasty to men?  Kidnap, imprisonment, torture, humiliation, emotional and physical abuse - we LOVE it!!!

Take for example cuckolding.  The central female figure is always the same - faithless, cruel, humiliating and usually a money hungry slut as well.  Not a conventionally "nice" woman at all.  And yet, millions of malesubs (and - lets admit it - some of us Dommes) find that incredibly erotic.

You might say 'well its not real cruelty (so we are all fake?) because the malesub really wants it and he can safeword any time he likes'

Yes.  And in my experience, in real life malesubs find it pretty unsatisfying having a Mistress who only does what he wants.  It doesn't match the eroticism of being forced by a Femdom to submit to her will against your own

I have my own theories why malesubs sexualise the Bitch Goddess archetype but I would like your opinion.  Why do malesubs find Femdoms sexier than conventionally "nice" ladies?  What does it for you?


The word bitch depending upon which lips it is spoken from derives different meanings at different times. eg my girlfriends and I delight in calling one another Bitch. :)

The word Bitch amongst my girfriends and I is an earned status and worn as a badge of honor.

attributable to the fact that we at all times command respect, demand obedience and know it is our absolute right to be placed on a pedestal. :)

Bitches rock



;P





< Message edited by MistressDolly -- 6/3/2007 7:38:44 PM >

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 7:39:41 PM   
RaynaSub


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		I also use the word bitch in a good way.
I agree, many bitches DO rock.


(in reply to MistressDolly)
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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 7:42:07 PM   
MistressDolly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RaynaSub

I also use the word bitch in a good way.
I agree, many bitches DO rock.




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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 7:47:17 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne
WHY do we find female cruelty to men so erotic?  I am not saying we act out - or should act out - these Femdom fantasies, but why do we get our rocks off reading about women being really nasty to men?  Kidnap, imprisonment, torture, humiliation, emotional and physical abuse - we LOVE it!!!


We find it erotic because it manifests sadism and D/s, which is what we love, in a raw, unbridled form. This sadism and D/s can occur without a bitch goddess persona. That is, sadism and D/s can be done compassionately and can simultaneously represent cruelty and affection or intimacy.

quote:

Yes.  And in my experience, in real life malesubs find it pretty unsatisfying having a Mistress who only does what he wants.  It doesn't match the eroticism of being forced by a Femdom to submit to her will against your own


There are different flavors of D/s. I don't think it is necessary to always have one's will broken or overruled for dominance. I can see a hypothetical fulfilling D/s relationship in which a domme does only what the submissive wants because their interests perfectly align--their rituals for expressing dominance and submission perfectly mirror each other.

I think one core point that is relevant here is the same point that is relevant when we speak of why a woman is more likely to date a bad guy versus a nice guy.

There are many reasons why one might be nice to another. One can be nice to others because one wants to treat others as one wishes to be treated. One can have a kind-hearted disposition. Or one can be nice because of low confidence or esteem, and feels one must be nice to earn approval of others. I think it is the last point that is relevant for the question at hand. Nice behavior can be a turn-off to the extent it is driven by or appears to be driven by lack of confidence.

On the other hand, jerky behavior can find its roots in social ineptness. However, confidence and esteem that allows one to not rely on constant external approval has potential to contribute towards jerky behavior.

Thus, while there is not complete causality, I think there is some correlation between being selfish and not and between confidence and esteem (or at least that perceived). That is, I would expect that if we take a 100 nice guys and a 100 jerks, stastically more of the jerks will have or will be perceived to have greater confidence.

I think confidence is an attractive quality, and people are more interested in a relationship that provides a social challenge. A person who always agrees does not provide much social challenge. Also, sweetness, politeness and formal behavior alone can become monotonous. Another reason bad guys fare well over nice guys is that they do or are perceived to offer greater excitement and primal arousal.

All this said, I think one can be nice, and be confident and offer excitement. I think those who are able to find this balance fare best as relationship partners.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 7:51:23 PM   
RaynaSub


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		Well I have several friends that are married and are indeed bitches.
There husbands love them, and they are happy together.
So it works for them.
How long have you been married?

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:11:28 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RaynaSub
Well I have several friends that are married and are indeed bitches.
There husbands love them, and they are happy together.
So it works for them.
How long have you been married?


I expect our definition of bitch may be different. I clarified my definition of bitch. Would you clarify how you define bitch?

I describe what matters to me in my relationship, which is a subjective matter. I appreciate certain values and traits in myself and others, and feel I would be most compatible with someone who has these values. What you say about your friends may well be true.

I am single. One does not have to be married to discern how one feels about what one considers bitchy behavior.

What I say differs from what you say and I sense a defensive energy in your post. My posts do not suggest I am married and I expect you have picked up as much. If so, I think the intent behind your question is to undermine my credibility. If you wish to disagree with my perspective, feel free. Why not discuss the premises on which I base my perspective or seek clarification about those premises?

If I am wrong about your intent, would you clarify why you asked the question? What logic drives it and what useful information did you seek through your question?

To the extent my perception is correct, your post suggests an attack due to frustration from an inability to effectively counter a differing opinion.

Cheers,

Sea

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:14:44 PM   
RaynaSub


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		I have several definitions of the word "bitch".
Since, I am using the term in a positive way here, it means: Strong, Independent,
Self-assured, powerful, controlling, aggressive and demanding.
As it has been said at least 20 times on this thread, you can be a "bitch" and
still be a great person.
I only added the part about my married friends, because you stated you did not
think being a bitch, was conducive to a long term lasting relationship.
But then my friends did marry very submissive men, so they get along fine.

< Message edited by RaynaSub -- 6/3/2007 8:17:14 PM >

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:17:07 PM   
undergroundsea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyIce
I don't know of that many women that at times can't act like a bitch.


I agree and I think this concept applies to people in general.

For the discussion at hand, I take the persona to mean it is a constant, everpresent aspect of the behavior.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:18:38 PM   
MistressDolly


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Status: offline 		Hey Bitchgirl ;P

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:23:01 PM   
RaynaSub


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		Hi there Bitchlady.

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:27:25 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		I've never been one for the BITCH GODDESS. I think guys into them must like self humiliation, immolation of the male ego, and maybe on some deeper psychological level --- relationship annihilation --- which all act as a kind or redemptive purge to get on with things in the real world. In sum, the BITCH GODDESS offers a kind of sado-sexual boot camp that some guys need and crave to experience.


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 6/3/2007 8:33:47 PM >

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)
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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:30:38 PM   
MistressDolly


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Joined: 8/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I've never been one for the BITCH GODDESS. I think guys into them must like self humiliation, immolation of the male ego, and maybe on some deeper psychological level --- relationship annihilation --- which all act as a kind or redemptive purge to get on with things in the real world. In sum, the BITCH GODDESS offers a kind of sado-sexual boot that some guys need and crave to experience.



For some men this is very true.

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:37:16 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne

I have my own theories why malesubs sexualise the Bitch Goddess archetype but I would like your opinion.  Why do malesubs find Femdoms sexier than conventionally "nice" ladies?  What does it for you?

 
I've thought about the Female Supremacy, big bad Domme notion quit a bit and have come to this conclusion: 
 
(just hear me out on this one.  I don't expect to get a standing ovation )
 
It plays into the male mindset of what "strength" is and if it turns them on, it turns us on. 
 
The sad realization is that we are  once again, doing something to make a man like us.  We are a caricature of a women wearing men's armor, behaving arrogantly with seeming disregard for the males feelings and such, 
 
They love it because they can tell their buddies just what bitches we are and how he  always knew all women are bitches deep down and then smirk as they call us "Goddesses".  Or worse, they can call us whores if you ask "tribute".
 
In an odd sort of way. it's an attempt to "keep us in our place".  The behavior we exhibit makes it easier for them to keep an emotional distance.  After all, .... we are cold hearted bitches after the fantasy is over,. 
 
I prefer to exhibit the strength a female has with calm, class and even temper.  

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 6/3/2007 8:40:22 PM >

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:38:29 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RaynaSub
Since, I am using the term in a positive way here, it means: Strong, Independent,
Self-assured, powerful, controlling, aggressive and demanding. <snip>

I only added the part about my married friends, because you stated you did not
think being a bitch, was conducive to a long term lasting relationship.
But then my friends did marry very submissive men, so they get along fine.


Thank you for clarifying. Here is context for my clarification.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
I am not convinced the term Bitch Goddess means the same thing to all people.


Therefore, I clarify what my definition of bitch goddess is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
The term bitch goddess makes me think of a woman with a harsh attitude devoid of compassion. I do not equate strength of personality with being a bitch. Strength of personality when used selfishly (unless that selfishness is wanted) and without compassion does amount to a bitchy attitude in my eyes.


If you are using bitch in the positive sense, and I am using bitch in a negative sense as described above, I think we are talking about different things.

quote:

While this persona may carry some fantasy or D/s appeal (I can see myself having a play relationship--versus a broader relationship--with a woman who adopts such a persona towards me), I don't consider it to be a good match for the long-term relationship or a romantic relationship I seek.


I chose my words carefully to describe what I feel about my relationship. I do not assign my preference to relationship of others. That said, if we examine a BDSM relationship as a social relationship using principles of social psychology, I think the bitch goddess persona as I define it has smaller chances of success than a compassionate persona.

If I have read more into your post than was there, I apologize.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 6/3/2007 8:39:53 PM >

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:45:56 PM   
RaynaSub


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		I have been posting here off and on all day.
This has been the first reply that I have been given that feels like the
Spanish Inquisition.
We are all here to talk and share and express ourselves.
That is really all I want to do.
I am not sure what has sparked this lengthy debate, and I can tell you enjoy debates.
But I have to get up early, and I rarely have the time or energy for lengthy debates.
I think I defined my use of the word bitch.
Take care,
Rayna

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:50:08 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
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From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Wow.  See, Sea?  Sometimes there aint no point.

As my daddy used to say, "If at ferst y'all don't succeed, trah agin.  If that faehls, give up.  There aint no point being a danged fool 'bout it."

Yours,


benji

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:52:04 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RaynaSub

I have been posting here off and on all day.
This has been the first reply that I have been given that feels like the
Spanish Inquisition.
We are all here to talk and share and express ourselves.
That is really all I want to do.
I am not sure what has sparked this lengthy debate, and I can tell you enjoy debates.
But I have to get up early, and I rarely have the time or energy for lengthy debates.
I think I defined my use of the word bitch.
Take care,
Rayna


?

My last post does not present much of a debate and I am unsure what meaning you have taken from it. In any case, I am content to conclude this exchange and thank you for your part in it.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 8:55:53 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji
As my daddy used to say,


Dads are full of wisdom. My daddy used to say, son, never pick your nose while tailgating at high speed! Ok, actually that came from defensive driving class. But it carries a greater sense of wisdom if I say my Daddy said it.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 9:53:55 PM   
AAkasha


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The "femdom bitch" is effective in porn and BDSM fantasy because it's sexy, erotic and gives an avenue for there to be tension, coercion, seduction, and most importantly -- the opportunity to "force" a man into all those fantasies he has deep, deep down but cannot face unless he's ordered to do them and he has no choice.  YUM!

In real life, well, it's a slightly different story, at least in functional relationships.  I still really like the idea of seduction, though, and getting men to do things they otherwise would never do.  In that sense, I am the real life version of the "bitch goddess" from bdsm porn; however, I don't do anything illegal or against the will of a man, and in real life "seduction" is far more effective than bitchiness.  Best stuff is still left to fantasy though.

Most of my regular fantasies involve make believe lack of consent.  Kidnappings, etc.  Do I do that in real life? Of course not.  But I do like my BDSM to include a healthy dose of fear, surrender and powerlessness.

Akasha


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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/3/2007 10:21:17 PM   
BlindUnknown


Posts: 66
Joined: 1/8/2007
Status: offline 		<OP>
i actually wrote a 13-page something on this.  Not exactly as mentioned, i cant speak to...cruelty per say, well, i'm not sure how to word it *ponders*  i'm just drawn to blatant violence and sadism in women, especially if it combines with affection, as penultimate beauty.

For me, and i can only speak as such, it is because of the caring female archetype.  i am a firm believer in chaos, in conflict, in growth through struggle and pain.  i believe in shattering order, in destroying convention for better or worse, as a general rule.

A woman who is sadist, who is mean, cruel, bitter, angry in general, whatever, doesn't fit in with God's orderly universe.  Society, schools, religion, all of it teaches us that people have a place, we all have roles, we can be defined by those roles.  i've taken quite a few psychology classes and even there, a female, by design and hormones and what not, is more caring, more emotionally minded, constructive, and all those other things we are all aware of as stereotypes (which exist for a -reason-, mind you)

Therefore, for me, the impulsive, violent, sadist, and psychologically unstable woman is, frankly, the most beautiful thing in the world to me because she is the manifestation of conflict.

But, that's my aesthetics, i leave everyone else to their own.

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