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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/5/2007 12:44:54 PM

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I find a dominant woman very sexy. I would enjoy being under her rule and to obey her. I would find it hard to resist her. It is about focusing on giving her pleasure. I also think that you can discuss anything sexually.
I love a Domme that enjoys being nice too. I do not see why not have the best of both worlds. I also see her telling me to do the same for her. She wants me to be a man, but under her thumb.

< Message edited by maledave7 -- 6/5/2007 1:02:27 PM >

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/5/2007 2:53:54 PM

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Having read most of this thread, I keep wondering why so many think
that women can't be both?
There might be a few women in the world that are bitches 24/7, but I think
that number is so small its not worth mentioning.
I would say most Bitch Goddesses have many different sides to them, as
most people do.

(in reply to maledave7)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/5/2007 7:45:30 PM

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Can I throw out something of newbie male viewpoint here? If I have to think of bitchy women that come off as really sexy, may I ask you all to consider Julie Newmar? (Catwoman-well one of them- on the Adam West Batman.) So never mind porn- here's a woman that's on prime time TV- with kids watching yet- that still comes across as incredibly erotic. Why? OK- a lovely face, wonderful figure and costume- but if she'd been vapid-the allure wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds. So it's the brains and her actions. She's playing a supervillain-just as capable as any of the men but the guys weren't generally played for sex appeal. (Penguin? Joker? I don't really get what women find attractive in a man, but I don't think it's those guys. Batman, on the other hand.....but I digress.)

Why is Julie Newmar so different than a sex kitten like Ann-Margret? Well, she's taking on attributes that were considered the domain of men-crime, but more importantly- she's attempting to seduce Batman- AND she's doing it in the way that a man attempts to seduce a woman. (Sorry if this isn't going to sound very PC but discussing gender stereotypes is hard enough.) She's straightforward about it- she's not flirting with Batman the way a "girl" flirts with a boy- she's coming on like a guy who's interested in a woman- and this I think is one of the facets of her appeal.

So she's a bad girl- a gender reversal of bad boy, and with the same appeal. And she's seducing using male technique- not female. She's got very broad appeal- either an example of where the vanilla world isn't so vanilla after all, or yet another example of how our mating rituals need some help.

Here's my viewpoint as to why "bitchy" women can be very appealing to both men and women.

1) Bad boy- there's really a heart in there- it just takes the right woman- ME- to change him. Just change the gender for bad girl and you've got men trying to "save women from themselves"- also probably some of the allure of watching the prostitutes at the Bunny Ranch on HBO- or James Dean, Marlon Brando etc. (Please spare me the Star Wars comparison.)
2) Frustration with seduction. There's an awful lot of frustration with the male/female mating dance. Bitchy women can appeal to men because they seem straightforward in their demands- at least you're not trying to guess as to what she really wants you to do when she says- lick my ankle.
3) Guilt. OK, I'm guessing at this one because it's very far from one of my own drives- but I'm betting that the men that like having women use them for their wallets are big on guilt. I suspect that this is very far from any workable long term relationship because it's so dehumanizing and so strongly rooted in some type of masturbatory fantasy that doesn't really admit anyone else.

If I had to bet what was the most common driver of most sane men here- I'd bet on frustration with seduction. This would be where a woman with an even tone would generally win out in the long run over the screaming harpy (I'm betting that most men don't really find that attractive in a partner- it's again a childhood fantasy.) Men are unhappy trying to be seducers- lots of the more reasonable ones are bad at it. (I understand men a heck of a lot better than I understand women.) When women begin playing by the same rules as men do in a courtship- the element of seduction is gone- it's much more straightforward: I think you're sexy- let's go to bed. Since it's hard to have two dominant personalities in bed at the same time- the tradeoff for getting rid of the seduction is that the man has to be passive compared to the aggressive woman. Clearly there are a lot of men that view this is a worthwhile tradeoff. Unfortunately, there are fewer women who seem to think so. (I'm basing this on the observation that dominant women have lots of choices in men.)

So the allure of "bitchy" women is that the seduction is gone. Given how messed up our roles are in the vanilla world- why is anyone surprised that a world sans seduction has a lot of appeal?

Sam

(in reply to RaynaSub)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/5/2007 9:31:03 PM

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<<she's coming on like a guy who's interested in a woman- >>

Exactly. You see strength for a woman if she acts like a man. That'd rather insulting. Try appreciating a woman's for the strength SHE has while BEING a woman. You have to understand women to recognize their strength. And that strength is attained by manipulating a male's mind and playing on his vulnerabilities.. (at least, that is how I am)

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 3:57:05 AM

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I see strength as strength period.
To assign characteristics based on gender is gender stereotyping.
Certain parts of this thread read like something written by vanilla people
in the early 1960's.

Women can act like men and men can act like women.
No one needs to bash strong women any more than anyone needs to
bash effeminate men.

This thread indicates how far we have not come.

People have a right to be, however they are without society judging what
are male vs. female characteristics.

< Message edited by LadyIce -- 6/6/2007 4:03:10 AM >

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 4:14:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

And that strength is attained by manipulating a male's mind and playing on his vulnerabilities.. (at least, that is how I am)

Wow I so disagree with this statement as it implies strong women aren't so without a man around---I am in complete agreement with LadyIce--strength is strength period---either one has it or they don't-- its how they use it that differs us all---I am strong, always was, always will be---I don't need a man to validate that or to make Me stronger---I lead, end of story---what a man does for Me is understand that is how life is for Me/Us and happily takes that role of follower--oh and think to do that he isn't strong? INMHEO it takes a man of great strength and character to acknowledge and embrace that place.

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 6/6/2007 4:15:18 AM >

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 4:33:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

And that strength is attained by manipulating a male's mind and playing on his vulnerabilities.. (at least, that is how I am)

Wow I so disagree with this statement as it implies strong women aren't so without a man around---I am in complete agreement with LadyIce--strength is strength period---either one has it or they don't-- its how they use it that differs us all---I am strong, always was, always will be---I don't need a man to validate that or to make Me stronger---I lead, end of story---what a man does for Me is understand that is how life is for Me/Us and happily takes that role of follower--oh and think to do that he isn't strong? INMHEO it takes a man of great strength and character to acknowledge and embrace that place.

I perhaps shouldnt presume to speak for Lotus, but I would point out that in the context of the thread the discussion is one regarding "bitch Goddesses" in relation to men, not in isolation - indeed I find it difficult to imagine how one could be a "bitch Goddess" alone, since one needs another with whom to interact in order to become such.

Being strong is something one can be alone. Doing strong requires someone or something to be strong towards. And what qualifies as strong is pretty much variable too, in that it relies on a certain amount of resistance in achieving one's ends. In this context, it would require a great deal of strength to deal with a more resistant male (should one wish to bother), but very little strength to deal with one who is totally compliant (which isnt much fun).

E

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 8:09:35 AM

LightHeartedMaam

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LadyIce and MHoo314:

You have SO misread what she said here. In no way does it say women aren't strong without a man around. She's saying, women don't need to act like a man to be strong. Cuss, swear, done a penis to be strong? Sounds like donning the reverse stereotype for confidence. I see it as doing what the man wants as HIS fantasy- just like a good submissive.

LadyIce: I lived the 60's. And you were born- when?

< Message edited by LightHeartedMaam -- 6/6/2007 8:10:37 AM >

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 12:45:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck
How about one little example..Donald Trump vs Leona Helmsley. One of whom is an asshole, but a very respected and admired asshole. The other...eh, not so much respected or admired, just a Class A Bitch in the eyes of the public.

Umm, let's not forget that Leona spent time in jail for tax evasion. Otherwise, I might be inclined to agree it was perhaps a fair example.

Otherwise I'd generally say Trump is known as having a nicer personality. He has big ideas, tends to get the job done, yet frequently goes bankrupt, thus is often in & out of business and probably screws his fellow investors as a result.

- pixel

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 1:34:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

Being sadistic doesn't mean that you don't care.The problem in the 'lifestyle' is the use of vanilla words. I don't consider myself a cruel person. In fact I'm very kind and loving. I enjoy hurting a submissive male with whom I have a loving sexual relationship with to give me sexual pleasure.What is cruel about that as long as it is totally consensual? Being a bitch is part of the dynamic that's all lol.

There's nothing quite like seeing the widest smile of pleasure I've ever seen in my life appear on Mistress' face as she begins having the most wonderful time being sadistic as hell, enjoying herself and getting off on it as she does what she chooses while playing with me!

Just seeing her smile like that gives me a great deal of pleasure as well, regardless of how much it may hurt at the time.

- pixel

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 1:37:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck
How about one little example..Donald Trump vs Leona Helmsley. One of whom is an asshole, but a very respected and admired asshole. The other...eh, not so much respected or admired, just a Class A Bitch in the eyes of the public.

Umm, let's not forget that Leona spent time in jail for tax evasion. Otherwise, I might be inclined to agree it was perhaps a fair example.

Otherwise I'd generally say Trump is known as having a nicer personality. He has big ideas, tends to get the job done, yet frequently goes bankrupt, thus is often in & out of business and probably screws his fellow investors as a result.

- pixel

I disagree with you on this but you have the right to your opinion.

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She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to pixelslave)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/6/2007 1:59:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1
Although those two facets of my character are the most prevalent in a long term relationship I find it extremely difficult to bring them to the fore when trying to enter into a new relationship. In fact I find myself getting angry and frustrated. Where and how do I start to unravel in a subs mind the unbelievable amount of nonsense he has probably imbibed about the 'lifestyle'.I have read your profile and it seems that your mind is full of the same nonsense.I am happy to believe that some women enjoy treating the men they are involved with romantically in the way you have described but I certainly wouldn't. This post states clearly that this is about D/s relationships of the romantic kind which is the only ones that I am interested in. I don't expect to use BDSM to turn a man on. If he isn't turned on by me as a woman then I am not going to get involved with him.

I think it goes both ways. I wouldn't want to be with a Domme who wasn't turned on be me as a man on all the levels that one would expect in a vanilla relationship. The commonality of sharing D/s interests are understood when one connects through a site such as this or at a munch, etc. Getting to know each other as woman and man first, then slowly integrating the latter at various levels seems to be what has been working for Mistress and I.

I don't think jumping into the deep end of the pool headfirst and expecting to swim in syncronization, when two people first meet, without taking the time to get to know each other on a basic level first, is very likely to happen successfully. It seems to me, that despite any eagerness that either or both may have, both still will need a period of adjustment. The Domme needs this time to find comfort in her dominance as she transitions into it with a new sub, and the sub needs it to adjust once again into submitting to a Domme that is new to him; especially when he has been on his own for some time and may have to slowly begin adjust to relearning to trust that he can give up control in any number of areas once again (assuming prior experience).

FWIW, I'm just sharing my experience. I hope it may be of assistance to those who are considering starting new relationships with those they may meet through corresponding with others they meet here on CM or elsewhere.

- pixel

< Message edited by pixelslave -- 6/6/2007 2:11:32 PM >

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Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to lateralist1)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/8/2007 8:26:01 AM

SlaveSubtoserve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Why can' we be a combination of both? At least that is my comfort level. I, like most people, have different facets to my whole. There is facet that is very loving and nurturing, very motherly and ferociously protective. Then there is a very cold, selfish, bitchy, almost unfeeling facet also. For me, both co-exist quite happily now.

....and yes the combination of the two in one woman/Mistress is heaven on earth indeed for this sub/slave!

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/8/2007 9:05:22 AM

SlaveSubtoserve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

That was exactly my point as well. I have to have that balance and in having it I find the more deeply I love, the more cruel and sadistic I am capable of being. I always felt that it was rather ironic. The older I get the more it makes sense to me.

....ah, yes again this is a heavenly mate/Mistress for me whose intense BDSM/sadism/cruelty increases directly with Her love and feelings for Her Sub/slave!-- but with compassion and sensitivity and kindness integrated of course- the ideal is a complex compendium no doubt and hard to find in One Woman/Mistress.

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/8/2007 9:08:44 AM

SlaveSubtoserve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: addicted2it

quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

Being sadistic doesn't mean that you don't care.The problem in the 'lifestyle' is the use of vanilla words. I don't consider myself a cruel person. In fact I'm very kind and loving. I enjoy hurting a submissive male with whom I have a loving sexual relationship with to give me sexual pleasure.What is cruel about that as long as it is totally consensual? Being a bitch is part of the dynamic that's all lol.

Lateralist1, I believe that your sentiments accurately describe and speak for most of the dominant females who have a realistic vision of what they are looking for in a sub or slave. I also believe that a healthy and loving female dominant can successfully integrate her sadistic desires with the nurturing and caring side of her personality in order to create a well-balanced relationship.

....exactly !

(in reply to addicted2it)

RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/8/2007 5:21:43 PM

MsCfromMelbourne

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quote:

Therefore, for me, the impulsive, violent, sadist, and psychologically unstable woman is, frankly, the most beautiful thing in the world to me because she is the manifestation of conflict.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlindUnknown

WOW I am thrilled to come back to collarme and find such a gold mine of interesting replies - thank you everyone! I am digesting them all and everyone has great points BUT

I wanted to stop a moment to say to BlindUnknown - that it the most incredible, fresh and original BDSM insight I have read in years.

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/8/2007 5:29:33 PM

MsCfromMelbourne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: foolishguy

Here is one idea:

Many men are afraid of female sexuality. I know when I am near a really sexy woman, I feel overwhelmed, almost overpowered, by the feelings she generates within me… despite myself. I may not want to have those feelings, or even like the person who inspires them, but I do anyway. The power of these feelings creates a sense of the unknown, of not being in control of myself, or at least my own feelings. This leads to an attempt to inhibit my own responses to gain control over myself. I won’t let myself fully feel the sexual and sensual stimulation that is building inside of me.

Enter BDSM and the bitch goddess. Everything she is doing and wearing is screaming sexuality. Her fearlessness is letting me know that inhibition is futile. There is no retreat from her sexuality. Her control let’s me know it’s safe for me to have these feelings. So, I can max out on all the wild stimulation and sensations she is sending me, and explore them with her, at her direction, without worry about what it all might mean. Although physically I am bound, emotionally I am more freer (liberated?)
FoolishGuy

foolishguy, that is a beautiful and incredibly clever insight in the psycho-sexuality of Femdom. I love it when people post from their own emotional experience, not theory . Thank you

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/8/2007 7:31:02 PM

MsCfromMelbourne

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What great replies. They have thrown up so many issues. My own opinions:

I asked why do some people find "nasty" behaviour by women sexy? The real question I am asking is "why are you a sado masochist"?

Now of course, not everyone is a sado-masochist. Plenty of people said they don't like "nasty" or cruel behaviour (even consensual) and it has no sex appeal for them. Good for you: you are either "normal" or your kink does not encompass sado-masochism.

I am however a sexual sado-masochist

IMO there's 2 kinds of "nastiness" (or sadism): (1) inflicting physical pain and (2) inflicting psychological/emotional pain.

Girls are especially good at the latter. For example, look at research on female bullying in highschools compared to male. This is not a gender stereotype, it is a fact. Girls and women are far better at psychological torment.

But why do some men find it so sexy? Mainstream society teaches us that inflicting pain of any kind on others is morally wrong (and in some instances a crime). It is perceived as particularly wrong by women who are stereotyped as nurturers

Some masochists want one or the other kind of pain; others want both. Some sadists do one or the other; some do both.,

As a sado-masochistic dominant, I inflict incredible physical pain on men, but I do so with a sweet smile and a soft voice. Am I a sadist? Yes. Am I a bitch? That's a matter of personal opinion.

My own opinion is that:
1    any pain inflicted without consent makes the woman a "bitch" and not in a good way
2    psychological pain inflicted with consent (eg verbal abuse) makes the woman a "bitch" but in a good way
3    physical pain inflicted with consent (eg good hard spanking) is probably not being a "bitch", although it might look so to others
4   pain of either kind inflicted by a woman who has lost emotional control of herself makes her a "bitch" and in a bad way, even if the male consents (even enjoys) the pain.

IMO, a "Bitch Goddess" is being a bitch in a good way

I play with subs who want physical pain. I am intrigued by subs that want humilation, verbal abuse and other psychological pain, but I am not good at inflicting that sort of pain on them. At the end of the day, I am inherently too "nice".

I really admire women who can be that kind of Bitch because I believe it is exhausting. As many have pointed out in this thread, it is impossible to be a Bitch Goddess all the time. Absolutely impossible. The emotional energy pro-dommes put into Bitch Goddess scenes in their dungeons is immense and hence IMO a good pro-domme earns every penny She charges the masochist for the experience.

Which brings me to the heart of the question: why do submales find it erotic?

There are as many different answers as there are sub males.

Interesting perspectives were provided.

Now ask yourself: if a woman said she was really turned on by men who sexually abused her, snarled, swore, and spat at her and beat her up, what would we ask? We would ask why had she sexualised such horrible mistreatment. Self loathing? Previous abuse? Fear of real intimacy/sexual love? Confusing cruelty with strength or confidence?

If the woman had no apparent emotional problems stemming from prior abuse, then what would we ask?

Does she actually hate men and therefore avoids any sexual or emtional bond with "Nice Guys". Is she trying to change a man (a goal always doomed to fail, ladies). Does she want all responsibility taken away from her ("that evil man made me do it" mental pretence). Is giving up control a way of giving away responsibility?

Is she projecting all her negative traits onto the male in order to own the role of being "the good one" and make him the baddie" in the relationship? Look hard at how she describes her parter. Is she enjoying or staunchly enduring his control?

Are Nice Guys boring because there's no constant fear (of abandonment and worse)? Not everyone likes a predictable, stable life and serenity. Constant drama thankfully leaves no time for self-reflection.

I suggest we think about female masochism because it is much, much more common than male and the various reasons are a useful tool to understand possible causes of male masochism.

There's many reasons why some of us enjoy emotional and/or physical sado-masochism. And most of us do not want to open the Pandora's Box and ask why. We just know it makes us feel good. Alive. Sexy. We would like to think we were just born this way.

The truth is, most of our underlying psychological reasons are not "good" and "healthy". When I see people trying to defend their sado-masochism and convince others their way is perfectly fine, I feel sorry for them. We need to admit that we are not "normal" and our reasons are not "nice" (otherwise we would be just like everyone else - YUCK NO WAY!!!!)

My sadism is not cruelty-free and frankly, I dont WANT it to be. Lots of normal (non-sado masochistic) people are drawn to BDSM, buy some nice fetsishwear, go to a few munches then presume to lecture the rest of us how to be "Loving" and "Responsible" (ie nice, kind, gentle, considerate).

Look, I agree all those qualities are important in relationships but they miss the point: we are sado-masochists. We cannot thrive in relationships that do not inflict pain. We do not claim to be "right" or "healthy" and we realise most people do not approve of us, but we know what we need and what we fnd erotic.

< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 6/8/2007 7:48:31 PM >

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/9/2007 3:06:21 AM

MsCfromMelbourne

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Oh damn...I killed my own thread! Don't you hate it when that happens........?

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RE: Why are Bitch Goddesses so erotic? - 6/9/2007 3:16:18 AM

MsCfromMelbourne

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One assumption that intrigued me was that a Bitch Goddess would be sexually aggressive and therefore free the male from the stress of seduction

In reality they tend to be Ice Queens - harder not easier than nillas to seduce. The paradox is that although she looks sexier than a nilla, but that doesn't mean she is an easy lay. Not at all. Teasing and denial are the the tools of the Bitch Goddess. A Bitch Goddess doesn't need to open her legs to keep a man. Bitch Goddesses f*ck with your head, not your dick.

Just an observation

< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 6/9/2007 3:17:41 AM >

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