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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 3:25:24 PM

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Needless to say I do not find the concept attractive and those that I know that live in this manner are not at all happy people.

I firmly believe that each individual has the choice to live their life in the manner that brings them the most happiness and satisfaction. If indeed, all of the people living in this manner were, I would support it. However I do not believe that to be the case. From those that I know it is moreso a form of brainwashing, usually using religioun as a tool. To me it is no different than teaching a child that it is the only correct way to live. To teach a little girl that they MUST keep daddy happy, that they MUST submit to daddy, and more importantly, that they MUST grow up and have the same sort of relationship. Now THAT is wrong.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 3:59:44 PM

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i am still waiting for kittensol to explain her theory on why calling a childs father "daddy" is abuse. So i shall ask a third time, perhaps she is ignoring me because she cannot back up what she claims.

luci bravo to you, while i don't live like those women nor would i raise my kids in that fashion i would never tell others that they don't have that right. If kittensol wanted to do good, save all the kids being raised by the KKK or some other hate filled group, they are the ones being really poisoned. How about kids being raised by crack addicted parents - i will personally take you to neighborhoods full of them.

Funny thing about kids - you can raise them anyway you like but they have a funny way of growing up and figuring out a few things for themselves. Oh and while we are at it, lets save all the poor little Amish babies who willl never get to ride in a car or turn on a tv or computer *gasps* what abuse!! How can they be so misled and shelered from the world.

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 5:02:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masque66

My only issue was the idea of having their daughters in 'training'. I think everyone has the right to be dominant or submissive as their choice, but applying that choice arbitrarily to their children based on their gender is, in my opinion, wrong. If their daughters want to be submissive, so be it. But make it known that they can be the dominant if they want. It's only right.

The situation is relatively the same as most evangelicals raising children, where kids get indoctrinated at a very young age to the extreme rituals of their church (along the lines of the "Jesus Camp" movie). And hell, there is what, 80 million hard core evangelicals in the US??? Whats 100,000 surrendered wives teaching their kids compared to 80 million?

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 6:12:40 PM

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LaTigresse, can I do the triumphal banana dance???

Clap clap clap thank you and all that jazz!

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 6:24:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i am still waiting for kittensol to explain her theory on why calling a childs father "daddy" is abuse. So i shall ask a third time, perhaps she is ignoring me because she cannot back up what she claims.

You know, I don't have to back up anything, because it wasn't a 'claim' but a constatation. Whilst I have nothing against old-fashioned couple with children referring to each other and to themselves as 'Mummy' and 'Daddy' - although I think it a little sad, as they have obviously relinquished their sexual personnae to their status as parents, period - I do object to the scene in the surrendered wife video. I found it very disturbing that this mother was operating a transfer. She was transferring her personal relationship to her husband to their daughter.

To a child, what does it say? It says that 'Mummy' is on par with the child and that 'Daddy' is the boss. In a healthy setup, BOTH parents would be the boss. Do you get it now? Or do I need to orientate you towards child psychology manuals (those books that DON'T reach the top of the bestsellers' list because, well, they aren't as marketable as Boyle's little literary crime)?

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 6:28:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
How you live, not a problem for me and I would be the first feminist to defend your choice.

Unless it's my choice to raise my children the way I want and not the way the "community" thinks best, huh?..........slave luci

Your offspring aren't you. They should have a right to develop into the best people they can be. If they choose then to follow some path when they are adults, more power to them.

But programming offspring, yes, I find that very offensive.

I bet if someone was programming their children to be racist you'd have a problem with it too.

So why is it ok to program them via sexist principles?

I don't see a different between the two and all claims of "nature" read like justifications to cover fears that not everything is that simple among human beings.

I'm not saying you are doing this, or I wasn't until you made it so personal, slaveluci.

Why exactly are you taking it so personally? Are you one of the women in the clip?

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 8:43:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i am still waiting for kittensol to explain her theory on why calling a childs father "daddy" is abuse. So i shall ask a third time, perhaps she is ignoring me because she cannot back up what she claims.

You know, I don't have to back up anything, because it wasn't a 'claim' but a constatation. Whilst I have nothing against old-fashioned couple with children referring to each other and to themselves as 'Mummy' and 'Daddy' - although I think it a little sad, as they have obviously relinquished their sexual personnae to their status as parents, period - I do object to the scene in the surrendered wife video. I found it very disturbing that this mother was operating a transfer. She was transferring her personal relationship to her husband to their daughter.

To a child, what does it say? It says that 'Mummy' is on par with the child and that 'Daddy' is the boss. In a healthy setup, BOTH parents would be the boss. Do you get it now? Or do I need to orientate you towards child psychology manuals (those books that DON'T reach the top of the bestsellers' list because, well, they aren't as marketable as Boyle's little literary crime)?

Just because two people use the word as you term "mummy and daddy" in referring to themselves to their children "they have obviously relinquished their sexual personnae to their status as parents, period " Are you in their relationships, wittnessing this relinquishing happening betwen these two adults, in order to make this outrageous claim?. You make a lot of assumptions about people, people you have no idea how they live, what makes them tick, what their personal relationship dynamic is, how they choose to use the english language, what books they choose to read, lifestyle they adopt, etc . How can you make claims like this? You are judging others based on your own emotional reaction to words you don't like or find offensive.

You can find anything you want disturbing, but that doesnt give you the right to judge them and say what they are doing is abusive to those kids. She was not transfering her personal relationship with her husband to her daughter she was trying to instill in her daughter the values she wanted to raise her with. You don't agree with it, fine, don't raise any kids you have like that, but you are projecting a lot of nonesense jibberish onto this situation in order to make it look like something it was not, and that's just plain wrong.

Making the man HoH does not automatically put the mother on par with the children, i did not see that in the video clip and i don't think anyone but you read that into it - you might want to examine your own psyche to find out why you personally find it so disturbing.

You don't need to direct me to anything, as kind an offer as i am sure it was

. i have read my fair share of all sorts of psychology manuals. It's almost comical advice coming from somoene obviously so disengaged from the workings of the human psyche as you are, as attested to in the ramblings of your posts here.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 6/25/2007 8:47:11 PM >

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 9:06:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Actually I think it is wrong to exclusively tell your child that there is only one way. It is better to share your traditions and then, if you are asked, give them permission and resources to investigate other traditions on their own.

Most parents I know (including my own) raise their children according to their family values, whether those include religious teachings or not. Then as the children grow into adulthood, they have the freedom to live as they choose. Did your parents ever tell you, "As long as you're in our house you live by our rules?" Mine did :)

quote:

If one's way is the best way then won't such an investigation led the offspring back to that way? It may take awhile or it may be that there is no "best way".

That was my Dad's opinion....that we would find our way back. So far 3 of his 5 kids have done that. I did not and likely won't. Yet I am grateful for what he taught me.

quote:

Why does that possibility frighten people?

I haven't seen anyone here express fear. I know I don't have such fear.

quote:

Why does encouraging offspring to develop into people who can investigate and make the best choice for them frighten people?

Again, I haven't seen any fear about it.

quote:

I think someone who is only led throughout the young years becomes an adult who can only follow. That becomes a problem when that same adult exercises civic responsbiliites that impact the rest of society. Because of that it is importan to the rest of us.

Interesting. My Master was raised in a Jewish household - you know, "Tradition!" and all that. He is the farthest from a follower that I know. Then again, you seem to be implying that someone raised in the family's values, tradition and/or religion is only led and not allowed to think, branch out, or explore for him/herself. Where did you make that connection?

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 9:51:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I firmly believe that each individual has the choice to live their life in the manner that brings them the most happiness and satisfaction. If indeed, all of the people living in this manner were, I would support it. However I do not believe that to be the case.

Hi LaTigresse,
I see your point and I appreciate the respect for others' opinions you've shown in saying it. The one question that occurs to me though is about what you said about the people that you know living in such a dynamic and how they aren't happy. You said above that if all of the people living that way were happy and satisfied, that you would support it.

It brought this example to mind: Say you have a young, single person contemplating marriage. They look around them and the married couples they see all seem to be unhappy. Should they deduce that because all married people aren't happy, they shouldn't support marriage? There are some really happily married couples out there. The fact that this hypothetical young person may only be privy to the lives of the unhappy ones shouldn't turn them against the entire concept of marriage. That's what I'm saying about this "surrendered wife" dynamic. Just because some (or even many) for that matter, may not be seen by others as happy, that does not mean that no one in such a dynamic is happy. There are many types of relationships that I observe. Not everyone in them is happy and not all of them are right for me. That doesn't mean that I can't support it for someone else, for whom it does work. Just trying to offer a different perspective.............luci

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(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/25/2007 10:02:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
But programming offspring, yes, I find that very offensive.

Then I would suggest to you that should you ever produce any offspring, that you do not "program" them. And remember, this will apparently mean that you must present all sides of every possible decision and describe them all as equally appealing and acceptable. Therefore, if the subject of whether or not it's acceptable to be a "surrendered wife" ever comes up, I'm sure you will present all sides of this issue, letting the offspring know that there are satisfied wives living in such a dynamic. Then, if said female offspring chooses to do so herself, I'm sure you'll be 100% supportive.

quote:

you made it so personal, slaveluci. Why exactly are you taking it so personally? Are you one of the women in the clip?

Yes. Did you not see me? I was the one calling my husband "Daddy."

No, tammyjo, I was not in the clip. But as I've said in post after post here, I don't have to be in the clip to be bothered by the way those women have had their relationships dismissed as creepy, sick, wrong, and abusive. And as I've also said in post after post here, I live in a dynamic very, very, very similar to these womens' marriages. That is why I am taking this so PERSONALLY.
slave luci

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To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 5:20:45 AM

FrenchConnection

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

That's more than I can say for most folks. Thank you............luci

(Why am I feeling aimed at ?)

Oh, and it IS wrong to bring up children in any way that denies them the right to make an informed choice if and when they're able to do it. Therefore, it IS wrong to raise a little girl to think that she and the house maid have to be at the feet of the king of the household.

Would any of Lowrat Boyle's supporters out there support somebody's decision to raise a little boy in a FemDom environment? Or is it acceptable to them to bring up a little girl to be subservient to the penis holder of the household because, well, that's the way they know, or like, or believe in, or that's what they chose to do in life, so it's only right that their daughters learn the same way? Sorry, but your way isn't necessarily the right way.

And I say this with the utmost respect. Jump down my throat if you like, but please, form an orderly queue, and do it one by one. Ta.

Personally, I agree with the idea and practice of a "Surrendered Wife".

It is not my place (nor yours I might add) to determine how parents raise their children, as long as it is not abusive as defined by our laws. I wonder if you *do* have children considering how authoritatively you have spoken on what is best for them? And if you do, how would *you* feel about someone saying that you can't raise your child in the manner you think is best because your beliefs are "wrong"?

When reading the website dedicated to the concept, one of the first tenets I noticed was that this works for "SOME" people. I have several Domme friends who would think the "Surrendered Wife" idea laughable. After seeing how their relationships work, I would agree. And in the same sense, they would agree that a "Surrendered Husband" relationship would not work for me *laughing*.

Oddly enough, kitten, you've run across a Male, Conservative (for the most part) Dom who has tried the 50-50 relationship you crave and found that it doesn't work for me. You don't agree with it, you think that anything less than a 50-50 relationship is wrong. We get it, we support your decision to say that is your decision. Don't condemn our 80-20/90-10/51-49 relationships and then protest that we are being mean. We are simply stating our decision and don't appreciate being called "wrong" or "sick" or anything else.

1. slaveluci has not once referred to anyone's preferred lifestyle as "sick" or "wrong".
2. slaveluci has not once said you shouldn't raise your children as you choose.

Hmmm, I believe she has the right to be offended when others on this thread have stated (albeit indirectly) she has neither of those rights.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 7:09:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrenchConnection
You don't agree with it, you think that anything less than a 50-50 relationship is wrong. We get it, we support your decision to say that is your decision. Don't condemn our 80-20/90-10/51-49 relationships and then protest that we are being mean. We are simply stating our decision and don't appreciate being called "wrong" or "sick" or anything else.

1. slaveluci has not once referred to anyone's preferred lifestyle as "sick" or "wrong".
2. slaveluci has not once said you shouldn't raise your children as you choose.

Hmmm, I believe she has the right to be offended when others on this thread have stated (albeit indirectly) she has neither of those rights.

Thank you very much, French Connection

.........luci

_____________________________

To choose a good book, look in an inquisitor’s prohibited list. ~John Aikin

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 8:49:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Needless to say I do not find the concept attractive and those that I know that live in this manner are not at all happy people.

I firmly believe that each individual has the choice to live their life in the manner that brings them the most happiness and satisfaction. If indeed, all of the people living in this manner were, I would support it. However I do not believe that to be the case. From those that I know it is moreso a form of brainwashing, usually using religioun as a tool. To me it is no different than teaching a child that it is the only correct way to live. To teach a little girl that they MUST keep daddy happy, that they MUST submit to daddy, and more importantly, that they MUST grow up and have the same sort of relationship. Now THAT is wrong.

Is this statement any more "wrong" than one that I've heard bandied about quite frequently and accepted as truth...

"If Momma ain't happy, nobody's happy?"

I'm not the one making the judgement call here, just asking for clarification.

I will teach my child that there is only one right way to live (don't steal, don't murder, respect your parents, love others as yourself) based on my beliefs and experiences...it will be up to him (much like as it has been for thousands of years) to decide whether my beliefs fit him when he reaches adulthood.

As for kittinsol and others who have pointed out about "raising children", all of those feminists that you revere....at some point in those lives, had a mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, aunt, sister, daughter, etc who chose to submit; somehow, someway each of those feminists came to the conclusion that the mold of their ancestors did not fit them. It will be the same for some men and women in each succeeding generation; don't give up on their mettle and character because of what their parents teach.

Some parents were rabid racists in the 50's and 60's. Would you hang that same sign undeserved on their offspring today?

Adding....and I agree with FrenchConnection and couldn't have said it better myself.
Edited because it needed clarification...didn't change my intended meaning.

< Message edited by QuietlySeeking -- 6/26/2007 8:56:43 AM >

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 9:01:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

I think someone who is only led throughout the young years becomes an adult who can only follow. That becomes a problem when that same adult exercises civic responsbiliites that impact the rest of society. Because of that it is importan to the rest of us.

Interesting. My Master was raised in a Jewish household - you know, "Tradition!" and all that. He is the farthest from a follower that I know. Then again, you seem to be implying that someone raised in the family's values, tradition and/or religion is only led and not allowed to think, branch out, or explore for him/herself. Where did you make that connection?

Did you miss the "only" part of what I said?

Clearly neither you nor your master were rasied in this "only" fashion.

I'm also noticing that people are entirely missing my connection between other "traditions" (to use your word above) such as racism as they defend sexism. How exactly are they different again?

That's where I'm seeing the fear. People seem afraid to challenge sexism but seem quite happy to say that folks should teach racism and that the community has a right to step in and stop child abuse. I just don't see one set of "traditions" (there are indeed people who claim tradition when accused of child abuse) as more or less than the others.

If one or two of these "traditions" is bad enough that those who mentioned them said they are bad then what exactly separate sexism off into it's own special categoy?

Not sure I worded that exactly right. I'm just open-mouthed amazed that some folks are arguing it's wrong to do X but ok to do Y, it's wrong for the community to care about X but ok for them to care about Y.

Can someone explain it without the old BS of "nature?" That "nature" excuse can and had been used to justify everything under the sun.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 9:10:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
But programming offspring, yes, I find that very offensive.

Then I would suggest to you that should you ever produce any offspring, that you do not "program" them. And remember, this will apparently mean that you must present all sides of every possible decision and describe them all as equally appealing and acceptable. Therefore, if the subject of whether or not it's acceptable to be a "surrendered wife" ever comes up, I'm sure you will present all sides of this issue, letting the offspring know that there are satisfied wives living in such a dynamic. Then, if said female offspring chooses to do so herself, I'm sure you'll be 100% supportive.

Yes, I would.

I strongly believe that if I have offspring that I have a duty to help them become the best individuals and citizens as they can become.

I think it is very sad if others do not see that as their duty.

quote:

you made it so personal, slaveluci. Why exactly are you taking it so personally? Are you one of the women in the clip?

quote:

Yes. Did you not see me? I was the one calling my husband "Daddy." No, tammyjo, I was not in the clip. But as I've said in post after post here, I don't have to be in the clip to be bothered by the way those women have had their relationships dismissed as creepy, sick, wrong, and abusive. And as I've also said in post after post here, I live in a dynamic very, very, very similar to these womens' marriages. That is why I am taking this so PERSONALLY.
slave luci

But you aren't one of these women. You are in Ds dynamic, yes, one that you and your partner designed or found that worked for you. You haven't said that you read this book and then build your life around it.

Just because looks the same does not mean it is the same.

As to the creepiness of the clip, as I have said repeatedly what the adult choose to do is their business. As a former childhood abuse survivor I take great interest and offensive when children are told there is one way because that is, in my personal experience and in everything I've learned in psychology and sociology, the methods of an abuser.

So guess what? I get to take it personally too on behalf of every child who is denied the encouragement and resources to become the best human being they can be when they are "only" provided with one way and one model often backed by "nature" and "god" BS.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/26/2007 9:30:32 AM >

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 9:29:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

As for kittinsol and others who have pointed out about "raising children", all of those feminists that you revere....at some point in those lives, had a mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, aunt, sister, daughter, etc who chose to submit; somehow, someway each of those feminists came to the conclusion that the mold of their ancestors did not fit them. It will be the same for some men and women in each succeeding generation; don't give up on their mettle and character because of what their parents teach.

Historically they didn't just "come to the conclusion" on their own. Most often they had opportunities because of their family's wealth or the lack of male heirs or class position in society. This gave them different models of how things might work and then they might or might not have encouragement to push things further.

As to the comment:

quote:

Is this statement any more "wrong" than one that I've heard bandied about quite frequently and accepted as truth...

"If Momma ain't happy, nobody's happy?"

I'm not the one making the judgement call here, just asking for clarification.

I've never seen that as a statement of how things should work but a sad commentary of how many women given a family will take out her emotional state on the family. Not healthy for either woman or family I'd say. Far better for her to feel empowered enough to express her feelings instead of passively-aggressively acting on them.

There some things that AmyGirl's summary of the book (post 29) offered that I can see as a positive for some women. The idea that the wife can express what she wants and needs may indeed be an amazing break through for some people. (that's actually very sad that someone would need that break through). The other ideas of the woman knowing her limits and expressing them and trying to break through negative thinking is also a positive.

I just honestly don't see how those necessarily go hand-in-hand that she has to surrender to the authority of her husband any more than he to her. I don't see the sexist ideas as necessary to help husbands and wives be better husbands and wives. I think the clip did a great injustice to the book as AmyGirl laid it out. Maybe those couples aren't good examples of what the book is promoting?

But this thread was not about the book but about the ideas in the clip.

Had it been about the book, I wouldn'd have ever commented on this thread because I haven't read it, probably won't because it has zero to do with my dissertation and it isn't on my review pile.

I based and continue to base my comments on the clip. To refresh what I began saying and I believe I have continued to focus on, see post #26.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/26/2007 9:31:47 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 9:32:24 AM

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tammyjo, i'm curious as to why you assume that because these couples are passing on their own beliefs and values on to their children that they are also restricting them from knowledge or understanding of any other ways?? that's a huge assumption to make, and it certainly can't be made from the film snippet we have seen here.

my Master and i have a child in the home...his son...who naturally has been raised to see male dominance and female submission within a committed relationship as natural and positive. however never has my Master sheltered him from any other world view, to the contrary, he encourages him to question things and seek knowledge and understanding. He understands that not everyone lives this way, that many people are happy NOT living this way. but he knows that D/s is our way, he's seen how it's been beneficial for us and for him, and he understands that our way of life is rooted in a belief in the natural order. He is not pushed to follow in his Father's footsteps, but rather to become his own man and decide within himself what is truly the right path for him. again, why you would assume that the same thing does not go on in the Surrendered Wife households, i'm not sure.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 9:38:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
But you aren't one of these women. You are in Ds dynamic, yes, one that you and your partner designed or found that worked for you. You haven't said that you read this book and then build your life around it

True. What I have said (and said and said and said) is that it does not matter if they call it D/s or if they learned it all from a book and built their life around it. They exercised their own choices and have implemented them. They have the right to choose this "surrendered" life without being told they are wrong or abusive, period.

quote:

Just because looks the same does not mean it is the same.

Again, I think I have the freedom to classify my own relationship dynamic any way that I choose as do these women. Just because we realize that ours is D/s (and M/s) and perhaps they don't, does not mean that the actions that take place within the relationships are not the same.

quote:

As a former childhood abuse survivor I take great interest and offensive when children are told there is one way because that is, in my personal experience and in everything I've learned in psychology and sociology, the methods of an abuser.

I'm a former childhood abuse survivor myself. I also take great interest and offense when children are abused. Somehow in all my personal experience and college education, I have never come across the idea that "the method of an abuser" is saying there is "one way" to do anything. That may be so, but it's certainly not one of the primary methods of abuse by any means.

quote:

So guess what? I get to take it personally too on behalf of every child who is denied the encouragement and resources to become the best human being they can be when they are "only" provided with one way and one model often backed by "nature" and "god" BS.

Take it as personally as you want to, by all means. But please don't make it out that you - as a childhood abuse survivor - can speak for all the "children." I experienced abuse as well as many, many other people have. This still does not make any one of us the spokesperson for all the children and the expert on how all the parents of the world should raise them. Personally, I find it a HUGE leap to say that because these couples choose to live in a "surrendered wife" dynamic, that that means that they "deny" their children "encouragement" and the "resources" to be all they can be. Your biases are showing when you disparage the fact that these couples "only" teach their children via a model centered around "nature" or "God." (Not to mention that you refer to them as BS - really open-minded thinking there

).

First of all, we have no way of knowing that these couples do that. Secondly, if that's how parents choose to raise their children, no one has the right to say they cannot. I always have to smile at the folks who get their hackles up about children being raised according to God's/Biblical principles. They would have that stopped and have the child taught nothing, I suppose, until they are old enough to choose for themselves. Yet, I often wonder if these same "openminded," "don't program your kids to believe in God types" would be so accepting if they were told TO teach their children that way. Somehow, I seriously doubt it. So, it's ok for them to tell the other parents how to do it but don't infringe on their right to NOT teach about God. Again, it works BOTH ways............luci

< Message edited by slaveluci -- 6/26/2007 9:42:08 AM >

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(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 9:49:48 AM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

tammyjo, i'm curious as to why you assume that because these couples are passing on their own beliefs and values on to their children that they are also restricting them from knowledge or understanding of any other ways?? that's a huge assumption to make, and it certainly can't be made from the film snippet we have seen here.

my Master and i have a child in the home...his son...who naturally has been raised to see male dominance and female submission within a committed relationship as natural and positive. however never has my Master sheltered him from any other world view, to the contrary, he encourages him to question things and seek knowledge and understanding. He understands that not everyone lives this way, that many people are happy NOT living this way. but he knows that D/s is our way, he's seen how it's been beneficial for us and for him, and he understands that our way of life is rooted in a belief in the natural order. He is not pushed to follow in his Father's footsteps, but rather to become his own man and decide within himself what is truly the right path for him. again, why you would assume that the same thing does not go on in the Surrendered Wife households, i'm not sure.

The thing that stuck out to me in the clip was the "making the cake for daddy". In my parent's home, we certainly made my father's favorite flavor on ocassion but the cake was for all of us. I found it very odd the way it was worded. I'm sure that has to do with my own past experiences that it stood out so much.

Maybe that woman was just nervous or maybe the editors cut it poorly. What I saw in that clip was discussion of only one way.

If a child sees one way only and hears one way only they can choose to do the opposite or a different way, as you yourself have said you did, daddysprop247. I don't think that happens too often, I think we more often than we'd like to believe just follow along those things we were raised with. Even small things to adults can have a big impact on offspring especially if they are repeated small things. (did you note the "only" above?)

I want to applaud you and your master for encouraging his son to question and see other models of how to live. I fear that is a rare thing for many families to do and sadly I know some actively try to discourage any questions and any other models from seeping into the household.

I hope that the book that AmyGirl laid out is far more than that clip showed.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/26/2007 9:51:40 AM >

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: Surrendered Wives on "60 minutes" Austrailia - 6/26/2007 9:57:43 AM

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

slaveluci, I just don't think that you and I are capable at this point of having a reasonable discussion about any of this.

We clearly have very different philosophies about what makes Ds Ds as opposed to any other model of relationship as well as the role of parents in relationship to offspring and community and the value of arguments based on "nature" or "religion". We keep offering examples that the other either ignores or counters. Hopefully we each are in healthy and happy families built on different philosophies so even our lives only bolster our own opinions.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to slaveluci)

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