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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Actually, none of the criticisms were directed at luci, but at the women in the 'surrendered wife' movement. That's how the whole little fracas happened: a misunderstanding which I attempted to clear up from the very beginning, in my own awkward way. Needless to say, it failed.

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I dared say I found Boyle's work ugly; some people took it as a personal insult - it's called conflict arousal. If you read carefully you will find the whole thing got out of hand when the submissive troops decided to erect a barrage against those that disagreed with them!

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
But programming offspring, yes, I find that very offensive.

Then I would suggest to you that should you ever produce any offspring, that you do not "program" them.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
But programming offspring, yes, I find that very offensive.

Then I would suggest to you that should you ever produce any offspring, that you do not "program" them.

Quite apart from probably being physically impossible to do, it would also be abuse.
To not program your offspring is to raise wild monkeys with no language.
It is to peak their mental development at about 5 years of age.
To teach them no values, no habits and no skills.
It is to make them be nothing.
And it's damn hard to do.

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
slaveluci, I just don't think that you and I are capable at this point of having a reasonable discussion about any of this.

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We clearly have very different philosophies about what makes Ds Ds as opposed to any other model of relationship as well as the role of parents in relationship to offspring and community and the value of arguments based on "nature" or "religion".

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We keep offering examples that the other either ignores or counters.

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Hopefully we each are in healthy and happy families built on different philosophies so even our lives only bolster our own opinions.

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Programming means putting information in -- not offering variations, not allowing for questions or other models, just putting information in.

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ORIGINAL: hildalove123
whos on line i love  to no  love to see me on line

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ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

2+2 = 4. Programming.
2+2 = 5 given sufficiently large values of 2...giving options.

For a child...2+2=4 is enough.
For someone who possesses discretion and more mature thought processes, 2+2=5 is an interesting supposition.

And by the way, I believe that point Aswad is trying to make is that "programming" isn't about NOT allowing options, it's about limiting the number of options under consideration to a manageable number and to a parentally-acceptable subset. In some circles, it's even called "setting boundaries"!

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ORIGINAL: Lashra

This lifestyle may work for some people but it absolutely will not work for others. I am one of those "others". As a naturally Dominant female I am not going to give over control or the decision making to a man just because he has a cock swinging between his legs. I learned a long time ago it is not your sex that makes you dominant or submissive but your own personality traits. No one anywhere has shown me any solid, absolute evidence that ALL women were designed to be (pick your own word to insert here) inferior, slaves, submissive, livestock to men. I respect other people and their lifestyles as long as they respect my own life choice. If you want to live that way go for it, but not everyone desires that type of relationship.

I think all these women celebrating the fact that they have no control/no rights and wish it for all women, were born after womens liberation. They have no idea what is it really like to have no control or rights in this world. If they did they may not be so keen to have their and all other womens rights taken away. These marriages do not last any longer or are any more happier than an equal partnership, if they did then why did womens liberation even happen? Here's a clue it wasn't because all the men were pushing us to be independent and capable of making our own decisions...Could it be that the women were actually unhappy and wanted something more for themselves? Perhaps they wanted choices..?

~Lashra

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ORIGINAL: Lashra
This lifestyle may work for some people but it absolutely will not work for others. I am one of those "others". As a naturally Dominant female I am not going to give over control or the decision making to a man just because he has a cock swinging between his legs. I learned a long time ago it is not your sex that makes you dominant or submissive but your own personality traits. No one anywhere has shown me any solid, absolute evidence that ALL women were designed to be (pick your own word to insert here) inferior, slaves, submissive, livestock to men.

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 I respect other people and their lifestyles as long as they respect my own life choice.

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I think all these women celebrating the fact that they have no control/no rights and wish it for all women, were born after womens liberation.

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 They have no idea what is it really like to have no control or rights in this world. If they did they may not be so keen to have their and all other womens rights taken away.

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These marriages do not last any longer or are any more happier than an equal partnership,

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Could it be that the women were actually unhappy and wanted something more for themselves? Perhaps they wanted choices..?

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ORIGINAL: nearnyccouple

First, there is "programming"that is accomplished by the mere fact of bringing up children. We "drive" home those "values" commonly referred to within the old testament. IE the 10 commandments. Teachers also program our young ones by giving them rote to memorize and practice and are tested upon their sole ability to memorize. The statement of :

2+2=4 is very apt. I have used a similar demonstration when making a point to my girl.
2+?=? This invites independant thought and the necessity for asking questions. If I just gave her 2+23=25 then what has she learned? what can she take pride in accomplishing? The ability to simply listen and remember?

If we do not instruct, guide, teach or program (pick the term for they all fit) our children and ourselves how do we learn or impart knowledge to others?

As for making judgements upon anothers lifestyle choice, unless you have walked in their shoes, experienced everything they have experienced in the order and fashion they have done who are we, or how can we be so arrogant to judge. Where is the tolerance this lifestyle is so proud to espouse? Where is the ability to see others and accept their ways as right for them and enjoy the dichotomy it provides?

James

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

I am glad to see a dominant woman post here as well, Lashra. Thank you for refusing to totally dismiss a style of living simply because you would hate living it. I have been surprised that nearly all the anger and refusal to accept has come from those identifying as submissives and not dominant women. It's been a bit surprising. You dommes seem to be a very tolerant, accepting group of ladies even when it's not your cup of tea.......slave luci

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ORIGINAL: Lashra

This lifestyle may work for some people but it absolutely will not work for others. I am one of those "others". As a naturally Dominant female I am not going to give over control or the decision making to a man just because he has a cock swinging between his legs.

I think all these women celebrating the fact that they have no control/no rights and wish it for all women, were born after womens liberation. They have no idea what is it really like to have no control or rights in this world. If they did they may not be so keen to have their and all other womens rights taken away. These marriages do not last any longer or are any more happier than an equal partnership, if they did then why did womens liberation even happen?

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

I am glad to see a dominant woman post here as well, Lashra. Thank you for refusing to totally dismiss a style of living simply because you would hate living it. I have been surprised that nearly all the anger and refusal to accept has come from those identifying as submissives and not dominant women. It's been a bit surprising. You dommes seem to be a very tolerant, accepting group of ladies even when it's not your cup of tea.......slave luci

*raises an eyebrow*

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ORIGINAL: DsKnight
We currently have the exact opposite of the problem you are referrring to - the media and the goivernment is full of bitch feminazis like you who want to tell everyone else how they can and cannot live.  You and the rest of your ilk are revolting.

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol
On top of that: I shudder to think that some of us will take their 'surrender' as an other example of BDSM submission. To me, it's nothing to do with BDSM. 

Well, not to send you into a fit of shuddering or anything but I watched the clip and I see nothing wrong with what these women are doing.  Let me make a short list of some of the things that occurred:
*a husband ordered for his wife in a restaurant and later picked out the clothes she would wear out
*a woman had to make her husband a smoothie for breakfast
*a mother spoke to her young daughter of "pleasing" and "honoring" her father and how he is the "king" of their home
*one lady ran her husband's bath and actually washed his back and shaves him
*It was suggested that women should not nag, should not criticize, should respect their husband's choices, and that husbands should have the final say in everything from financial decisions to sexual relations (in which case she said always say "yes" and not deny him)
*It was further suggested that "happy marriages happen" when wives give lots more control to their husbands and that, even if marriage is considered a partnership, the husband is the senior partner and the wife is junior partner.

Now, I don't want to shock anyone but there is nothing here that Master and I do not adhere to (except explaining to the young child how things work as we don't have children.  However, if we did, I would certainly explain it just as she did).  I don't see anything oppressive or abusive in any of this.  Saying it is creepy, sick, and wrong is certainly an opinion you've the right to have but to say these folks are freaks and should be dismissed is what is wrong in my eyes.  We live like this and He and I love every minute of it.  Just because we throw in some bondage and pain doesn't make it any more valid than if we didn't.  I hate to burst anyone's bubble but not everyone's submission involves strutting out to public parties, wearing fetish clothes and hanging out in dungeons.  If that's what does it for you, great.  But please don't insult or dismiss those whose kink simply appears a bit more vanilla to you..........slave luci   

Edited to add:  I would also state here that BDSM is made up of the terms bondage/discipline, dominance/submission, and sadism/masochism.  In our relationship, we are always engaged in the d/s part and the other two happen occasionally.  I see these women as engaged in perfect examples of what d/s means to Master and I.  Just because couples aren't constantly involved in the other two aspects doesn't make their relationship any less valid or acceptable as a BDSM one.  Master says that if I were to only be totally submissive to Him when I'm tied up or being beaten, that that would be a poor example of BDSM.