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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

That's more than I can say for most folks.  Thank you............luci

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol
(Why am I feeling aimed at  ?)

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Oh, and it IS wrong to bring up children in any way that denies them the right to make an informed choice if and when they're able to do it. Therefore, it IS wrong to raise a little girl to think that she and the house maid have to be at the feet of the king of the household.

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Sorry, but your way isn't necessarily the right way.

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And I say this with the utmost respect. Jump down my throat if you like, but please, form an orderly queue, and do it one by one. Ta.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Oh, and it IS wrong to bring up children in any way that denies them the right to make an informed choice if and when they're able to do it. Therefore, it IS wrong to raise a little girl to think that she and the house maid have to be at the feet of the king of the household.

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

The question is, who decides what is an acceptable family value and what is not?  And how is such a decision determined?  And how is it executed?

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol


The wife called the child's father by the name 'Daddy': it's creepy. It can make the child feel that somehow, her father is also her mother's father. It's just plain wrong: I call that abuse. Plus, you can BET the man never speaks to their daughter about "pleasing" and "honouring" the mother.

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ORIGINAL: slaveluci

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
It's great to choose what you want to do -- please remember that in large part that is what feminism won for you. It's like women such as Schaffly who actively worked against the ERA --guess who made it possible for her to even have a voice in the that discussion? All those feminists she hated. Or women who say no female could possible be president and they would never vote for one -- and how did you get the right to vote? People worked for that, both men and women, worked for that, they are often called first wave feminists.

I really do agree with you, tammyjo. It was pretty tongue-in-cheek when I said "anti-feminist." I was just trying to emphasize the point that ownedgirlie made. It has always amazed me when rabid feminists attempt to dictate to women that, now that we don't have to be "surrendered" or "submissive," that we never should be. It always reminded me of the time I spent managing a domestic violence shelter. Women would come in who seemed to have no right to choose in matters at home and, in the course of trying to empower them, certain staff members thought the way to do that was to basically tell them the "right" choices to make. I always find that very ironic. She came to us with no real personal power and in the course of "helping" her, we decide what's "best" for her? Kind of reminds me of feminists who would "help" me be empowered. No thanks - I'll handle it myself. But, I'm very aware, as you noted, that I am able to handle it myself due to the work of "feminist" women before me.

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I have a great problem though when others work to undermine feminism even if it is on the level of raising a child to believe there is only one way to be a particular sex or gender. I'd have the exact same problem if it was a matter of race or religion or ethnic group too.

I see your point but if these women (and I) choose to live in this type of relationship, how are we "undermining feminism?" We are empowered to make our own choices and we do - even if they don't fit other peoples molds of what is acceptable. I would think any feminist worth her salt would encourage individual women to follow the path that's best for them even if it is against popular mores................slave luci

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Oh, and it IS wrong to bring up children in any way that denies them the right to make an informed choice if and when they're able to do it. Therefore, it IS wrong to raise a little girl to think that she and the house maid have to be at the feet of the king of the household.

I am interested if those with this point of view feel it is wrong to bring up little one's with any sort of religious belief, too, be it Christian, Judaism, Hinduism, Confusianism (which also puts men first), Buddhism, etc...?

The truth is, every family has its set of values, whatever they may be, and they will raise their little ones according to those values. The question is, who decides what is an acceptable family value and what is not? And how is such a decision determined? And how is it executed?

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

[quote
How you live, not a problem for me and I would be the first feminist to defend your choice.

How you raise the next generation is a concern for the entire community because you create the next generation of citizens and as citizens we impact each other for better or worse.

The "you" here isn't directed at an individual on this site but toward the video clip and the idea that we pass on sexist (racist or anything else) ideas and expectations to our offspring.

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ORIGINAL: Boucanier

Wow.  You know, for a community that struggles so hard to at least be left alone to do our thing, if not truly accepted, people here can be incredibly judgemental of those who don't see things exactly as they do.  If it works for them, good for them.  I know of people who DO combine the concepts in that book with a kink lifestyle -- Does that validate the "Surrendered wife" part?  Does it invalidate the kink?  Who are you to judge?  If you don't like it, don't live it, but let others live as they see fit.  As for what they teach their daughters, that's between them and their daughters, unless you're ok with the idea of society telling us what beliefs we can bestow on our kids -- a scary proposition, considering what most of society thinks of what most of us believe (at one point or another).

If this is what it is that we do, sitting in judgement of those whose lifestyles aren't to our approval, how different are we from our detractors?

"No question now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

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ORIGINAL: sluggy67

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

[quote
How you live, not a problem for me and I would be the first feminist to defend your choice.

How you raise the next generation is a concern for the entire community because you create the next generation of citizens and as citizens we impact each other for better or worse.

The "you" here isn't directed at an individual on this site but toward the video clip and the idea that we pass on sexist (racist or anything else) ideas and expectations to our offspring.

That is the scariest post I have read on here in a long time.

So, if I am understanding your position correctly, the "community" has a stake in how I raise my child?
And what happens if the "community" is unhappy with my choices in child-rearing? Do they then take my child and instill in him the correct attitudes? How would they do that, exactly, without destroying any kind of familial bond between parents and children? "Well, young citizen, your parents are not instilling the correct values. Your ever-powerful and infallible government will now teach you the correct way to think. Until you can admit that what your parents did (teaching you that men, or whites, or christinas are superior) was abusive and wrong, you will not see them again, OK?"
And I imagine that the offending parents would have to pass some kind of tolerance and diversity training to prove that they were capable of having the children returned and raised correctly? The training center should have the latest in medical, pharmacological and coercive techniques to insure that the parents truly BELIEVE that the community is right, and are not just faking it to get to see their kids again.

Keep your hands off my kids, lady. I will raise my children as I see fit. As long as I am not abusive to them, I have the freedom to instill whatever values I see fit. And I don't believe that teaching children to be intolerant, racist or sexist to be abuse. I personally do not teach them to be racist, but I do teach them that the husband and father is the leader of the family. And I DO teach them to be intolerant of idiotic ideas, whether they be religious or political.

Once you start saying that the community (and does that mean the neighborhood, the city, the county, the state, the federal government?) has an obligation or duty to teach children the politically correct attitudes, you destroy the integrity of the family, you usurp the parents' authority, and it is a short trip from there to re-education centers and mandatory child-rearing laws.

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ORIGINAL: sluggy67

Keep your hands off my kids, lady.  I will raise my children as I see fit.  As long as I am not abusive to them, I have the freedom to instill whatever values I see fit.  And I don't believe that teaching children to be intolerant, racist or sexist to be abuse.  I personally do not teach them to be racist, but I do teach them that the husband and father is the leader of the family. 

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

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ORIGINAL: sluggy67

Keep your hands off my kids, lady. I will raise my children as I see fit. As long as I am not abusive to them, I have the freedom to instill whatever values I see fit. And I don't believe that teaching children to be intolerant, racist or sexist to be abuse. I personally do not teach them to be racist, but I do teach them that the husband and father is the leader of the family.

I don't think anybody here has any intention on stopping you from 'instilling' whatever you wish into YOUR kids. However, I shall quote Khalil Gibran, author of the most wonderful 'The Prophet':


Your children are not your children.


They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.


They come through you but are not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.


You may give them your love but not your thoughts.