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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:20:30 AM

sambamanslilgirl

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punching to me would qualify as abuse and i would file a police report against the Dom too.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:20:31 AM

smilezz

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I very much enjoy Body Percussion. All out fighting with each other is a major turn on for me.
I have never been hit in the stomach during a scene. I have been hit may places, including my stomach as i grew up fighing, then learning control. I have seen people beat each other bloody.............and this "was" a scene.

It boils down to each individual person....

Happy Wednesday!
~smilezz~

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:29:04 AM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
You don't know a fucking thing about anatomy or fighting.

Wrong on both counts.

IF we where in a forum where it was reasonable to expect the average contributer had the training to engauge in such safely you may have a point, but here, the majority are likely to be out of shape and totaly untrained. Some dork gets it into their head to start beating his girl in the gut because 'that faramir dude says it safe' is going to seriously fuck someone up and cause a lot of harm.

Even with someone trained the risk is still there. What was it that caused Houdini's death perchance?

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:29:27 AM

Domspaintoy

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Joined: 2/25/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

It's really, really simple. The answer to "when does punching your sub/slave in the stomach or anywhere become an acceptable BDSM past time?" is "Whenever those two consesnting adults choose to." It's their life, not yours. I mean, the ludicrous hypocrisy of a person with the nic "Domspaintoy" carping at other people's SM kink, prating on and on about safety and abuse, is OFF THE FUCKING HOOK. It's a wonder you haven't been struck down by lightning.

Safety? Hey, let me a make a wild, wild ass guess. One of you carping about this--I would never trust a person who wanted kink X--likes breath play. Holy fucking ignorance--you people think stomach punching is dangerous? You punch someone in the gut, your hitting their intestines. You'd have to really, really wallop someone to damage them. I've had about 20 Superfights/Tuffman fights over the years, three rounds apiece, and fuck, maybe 200 rounds of serious pick-up and sparring. I was trying to hurt them, and I know in those thousands of punches a few hit someone in the gut, not with their abs tensed, and nobody had a ruptured intestine. It's conceivable that a strong man could haul off and hit a woman hard enough to hurt her, sure. And I could slap a woman full-force, I suppose, with a locked wrist and break her jaw. And you could do electrical play near organs and hurt someone. And you could do....

Hey, listen, pot, please meet kettle. Everything you do, a vanilla person thinks is sick, dangerous, and if they were judemental like you, would think indicated you were not competent and able to give consent. You like being judged because what you do is different? You're just like a judgemental vanilla biddy clucking her tongue.

Oooooooooo! dont need to say much more really do i! did you miss the question marks?. im not or certainly didnt intend to judge anyone, i said i wasnt my bag, each to their own, one mans kink etc.

i am all for freedom of choice but i personally do not like punching, i believe its a fine line and all manner of instruments and hands have being used on my body in play but not a fist (unless its being inserted, lol), im perfectly entitled to say i disagree with it and is also said IF something had happened to the woman who had given birth recently she wouldnt be classed as not being in her right mind because thats how it would be presented against the man. simple. But then im in the UK

Really, is there any need for such a response?. i asked a question because it interested me enough to hear different views and because i dont understand the reasoning behind it, also to me a punch is a violent act and i find it difficult to equate a punch with erotic and thats not being ignorant or cackling its being honest, i dont get it! To punch a female in the stomach/abdomen area is highly dangerous everyone knows that surely? it only takes one punch etc, thats the one they would pick over with a fine toothed comb in a court of law not the 200 odd others before it.

im all for safety obviously but we all know there are people in this lifestyle who profess to be Doms that are abusers we have all read/heard about them and its those people or their potential subs who need to be aware its not necessarily a safe practice to partake (=take part) in. if i read many different views for punching then it may be that i may alter my view because i will have been educated by those that know, (i doubt it because its an act of violence to me).

Faramir you may well have perfect experience of such activities but it doesnt mean you can shove it down my throat *grin* also you know nothing of me so please do not judge me or my nic. people should learn to read before they comment in such a vehement manner. But then theres another word for that ....

Take Care

dpt.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:32:04 AM

Domspaintoy

Posts: 158
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

I very much enjoy Body Percussion. All out fighting with each other is a major turn on for me.
I have never been hit in the stomach during a scene. I have been hit may places, including my stomach as i grew up fighing, then learning control. I have seen people beat each other bloody.............and this "was" a scene.

It boils down to each individual person....

Happy Wednesday!
~smilezz~

This really is a revelation to me, i really didnt know there was such a desire for such an activity.

As i always say, you dont find out if you dont ask and despite the odd one or two im glad i asked it.

dpt.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:46:41 AM

colkron

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If someone punched me, I'm afraid I'd punch them back. Seeing as I'm a submissive, this would not be good. Punching to me is violence, but, hell, so is hitting a naked person with a belt. Humiliation is a sort of violence, too. And I love that in a scene.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:47:57 AM

Faramir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
You don't know a fucking thing about anatomy or fighting.

Wrong on both counts.

IF we where in a forum where it was reasonable to expect the average contributer had the training to engauge in such safely you may have a point, but here, the majority are likely to be out of shape and totaly untrained. Some dork gets it into their head to start beating his girl in the gut because 'that faramir dude says it safe' is going to seriously fuck someone up and cause a lot of harm.

Even with someone trained the risk is still there. What was it that caused Houdini's death perchance?

I assume you are referring to the urban legend about him dying from being punched in the gut by a college student. Anyone who knows anything about anatomy or fighting knows how fucking dumb that particular urban legend is, and how ignorant you would have to be believe it or reference it as precautionary.

Boy, you look fucking knowledgable now, huh?

< Message edited by Faramir -- 7/4/2007 7:52:00 AM >

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:50:37 AM

Faramir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I would have a hard time trusting someone who wanted to punch me in the stomach.

Exactly. Its unsafe and i cant see how it could ever be made a safe thing to do.

Areflectionofyou, Thanks i didnt know there was even a name for it.

dpt.

Oh, I see. Asserting that activity X cannot be safe, and that Dom who wanted to do it is untrustworthy isn't being judgemental. It's just asking a question.

My bad--my apologies. Silly me.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:54:02 AM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy
if i read many different views for punching then it may be that i may alter my view because i will have been educated by those that know, (i doubt it because its an act of violence to me).

Personally, your original post, the wording of the questions and the comment above in parenthesis shows that your mind appears to be closed to the possibility of accepting this type of play for others.

I see a huge inconsistency in the type of thinking that I have seen from many people (not just you) regarding this type of play. It is okay for a man to use a toy that is essentially an instrument of torture (flogger, whip, cat o' nine tails, cane, etc.) to beat a woman until she is bruised or bloody but if he uses his fists then it is abuse and violent.

For me, this type of play it is highly erotic and primal.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 7:58:53 AM

Archer

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Not only do I participate in Deep Impact / Rough Body play, I present a class on doing it safely and how to ease you way into doing it.
No different than other forms of impact play there are places and manners of hitting that increase or decrease the risk of damage.

The idea of hitting a woman with a closed fist was entirely repulsive to me for many years, but then again the idea that a bullwhip could be used in a safe manner was something I had to see to believe many years ago when I thought there was no way someone could do it.

In the class I present I include many things space prevents me from covering it all here.
Advising the DM's that this type of play is going to happen is something I almost always do. It allows folks who have a visceral reaction to it to leave the area and not watch it. Even so I have had folks crying from watching the very primal energy of a punching and kicking scene, the energy and images are very raw and some folks don't process it very well, but are often drawn to watching it anyway. (trainwreck mentality I guess)

Keeping the impacts on target is actually easier than with any toy or tool, I mean we've been practicing how to hit things with our hands since birth.
Keeping the level of impact right also easier than with almost any tool/toy same reason decades of motor control practice.
My god it's like hitting something with an extenssion of your body. LOL

Conditioning mentioned earlier: You simply cant expect an unconditioned body to safely absorb the same impact as you can expect a conditioned body to absorb without injury.
Medical: I tell folks please if you're going to do this know where the sports medicine hospitals/clinics are. The reason for injury of "sparing" has worked for many BDSM injuries when seen at a sports medicine clinic.

Lots of other considerations to take into acount I'm not going to cover them all for two reasons space and I don't want folks who read this little post thinking they can go right out and start punching and kicking safely based on this little post. Many large events have presentations on this practice and going to one will certainly teach more than what I can write here.

BTW I've been asked to present my class on Deep Impact at GLLA in Indianapolis in August and Likely I will since I am already presenting on another topic. Great Lakes Leather Alliance weekend 24-26 August.
http://www.greatlakesleather.org/

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:00:08 AM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colkron

If someone punched me, I'm afraid I'd punch them back. Seeing as I'm a submissive, this would not be good. Punching to me is violence, but, hell, so is hitting a naked person with a belt. Humiliation is a sort of violence, too. And I love that in a scene.

This type of play does make my highly aggressive and I will punch, kick and slap back often. As long as the top is open to that type of exchange between you, I don't think you should let that you are submissive stop you from doing it.

In our play, there are no rules. We are to play without consideration of our thoughts and just react. What he doesn't like, he will control. Fighting back is something that happens almost every time we play. It makes things a lot of fun for all of us.

Knight's Kyra

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"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:02:00 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy
im all for safety obviously but we all know there are people in this lifestyle who profess to be Doms that are abusers we have all read/heard about them and its those people or their potential subs who need to be aware its not necessarily a safe practice to partake (=take part) in. if i read many different views for punching then it may be that i may alter my view because i will have been educated by those that know, (i doubt it because its an act of violence to me).

If this is the perspective that you are coming from than I doubt that there is any number of stories that are likely to sway your opinion. You see men who engage in this behavior as abusers who are committing violent acts. Until you can resolve that perspective it is unlikely that you will be able to really understand the perspective of those who do enjoy this type of play.

This is a form of play that I have regularly engaged in. My ex Master and I are both trained fighters and used to very much enjoy this type of interaction. Now that we are no longer together, there is a very short list of people who I can play with in this manner, it's not something that a lot of people can really wrap their head around.

Can you get hurt doing it? Well you sure as shit can. Been there, done that. I've been both on the receiving end and giving end of bruises, split lips, loose teeth, black eyes and even a broken bone or two. But I am well aware of those risks before we get toe to toe, and I assume the responsibility that those risks carry.

Is it abusive? No. Not in the context in which I partake in it. There are no ill intentions, no malice. Not anymore than two people who choose to engage in a game of yard football or racquetball. You can get hurt doing those things too but it doesn't mean their abusive.

It may just be one of those things you choose not to watch. It's not something that I do often in a public setting as there is a tendency for people to get really squicked out by it. But if you do see it don't automatically jump to the conclusion that you are watching an act of physical violence perpetrated by an abuser on an uninformed victim.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:02:59 AM

Domspaintoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I would have a hard time trusting someone who wanted to punch me in the stomach.

Exactly. Its unsafe and i cant see how it could ever be made a safe thing to do.

Areflectionofyou, Thanks i didnt know there was even a name for it.

dpt.

Oh, I see. Asserting that activity X cannot be safe, and that Dom who wanted to do it is untrustworthy isn't being judgemental. It's just asking a question.

My bad--my apologies. Silly me.

What?? yes silly you. i believe you are making something far more out of this than is necessary, i asked a question if you read on im learning more about it this thread progresses.

Makes no odds, you clearly got a bee in your bonnet. i said i CANT see how it could be made safe. i can not see how? i have yet to have anyone say how it can be made safe practice! instead of attacking me Faramir perhaps you would like to educate me in a civilised manner on this topic??????

dpt.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:03:36 AM

AquaticSub

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~Using Fast Reply~

Punching in the stomach does carry risk of internal injury. Because of the serious nature of an internal injury and that such an injury isn't the easiest thing to spot in the world, I would consider this very hard edge play, assuming that the dominant is indeed punching very hard. Internal bleeding, ripped organs - all that yummy stuff - can lead to death if not treated or expensive hospital bills. I can't think of something to tell to the ER that wouldn't require them to file a police report either.

I have been in martial arts for years and years. I have been kicked, punched and kneed in the stomach by accident and in sparring. It hurts, whatever you go on and deal with it. However, that was in a circumstance where I was aware I was about to be hit and I was more then allowed to do what was needed to either negate or lessen the effects of the blow. While I don't think wanting to hit a submissive or slave in the stomach automatically equals irresponsible, it does raise red flags for me and it does automatically mean that I wouldn't submit to them as theirs.

Which makes it entirely fortunate that their kink doesn't have to be my kink.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:09:07 AM

Poppygirl

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so basically its a "fight club" scenerio. i wish to be a tension release for my Dom, but truly a punchingbag, never.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:09:12 AM

Domspaintoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy
im all for safety obviously but we all know there are people in this lifestyle who profess to be Doms that are abusers we have all read/heard about them and its those people or their potential subs who need to be aware its not necessarily a safe practice to partake (=take part) in. if i read many different views for punching then it may be that i may alter my view because i will have been educated by those that know, (i doubt it because its an act of violence to me).

If this is the perspective that you are coming from than I doubt that there is any number of stories that are likely to sway your opinion. You see men who engage in this behavior as abusers who are committing violent acts. Until you can resolve that perspective it is unlikely that you will be able to really understand the perspective of those who do enjoy this type of play.

No i said We all know there are people out there who profess to be Doms who are abusers, as we have all heard and read about them. Yes i see a punch as a violent act but again i have no personal experience of punch being given in the erotic sense so thats why i asked initially.

i find it really interesting that this is a genuine kink for people and i would be the last person to judge anyone on enjoying it, but as ive said once ill end up saying a dozen times i dont understand it, i do no get it!

dpt.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:11:34 AM

Archer

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For "how to make the activity reasonably safe", I point people to the basics of any form of impact play. Targeting is one major factor so is speed and follow through.
Adjust them accordingly. Physical conditioning of the bottom is a paramount consideration when you make the adjustments.

BTW I would not assume that punching and kicking is resistance play, it is not nessisarily so. I practice both resistance and non resistance in Deep Impact play.
By far resistance play has a higher risk of injury.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:13:25 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poppygirl

so basically its a "fight club" scenerio. i wish to be a tension release for my Dom, but truly a punchingbag, never.

That makes more sense to me. I will happily spar Valyraen but if we started doing it a lot I would probably get us both gear.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 7/4/2007 8:14:02 AM >

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:15:22 AM

Archer

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As for what you get out of it? For me it's a very primal energy as well as much more "personal" when I am actually going to touch the person with my hand/fist/foot than when I strike them with a tool.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:17:07 AM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir
Boy, you look fucking knowledgable now, huh?

Compaired to you, I most certainly do. How many years of nursing background can you claim? I have more than enough not to automaticaly write such off as an urban legend just because it fits some spurious agrument where someone is trying too hard to prove a point.

My point however is that HERE we are predominantly dealing with the totaly untrained and that belly punching carrys a high risk including (though not 'most likely') risk of fatal consequences/complications.

Did you however see Me say that no-one, with sufficient care, skill and experience should ever participate? Or that *I* considered the risk too great to advise it. I do consider it very stupid for someone to try and present it is a low or no risk activity to a forum of untrained contributors.

Unlike standard punch play where I pointed out that it could be done with reasonable safety given care was taken. Not My bag, I prefer resistance play of a more judo based style, but much lower risk of serious complications if a mistake is made due to inexperience.

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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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