RE: Punching your sub/slave?

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Punching your sub/slave?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Punching your sub/slave?

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 4:10:33 PM

Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're judging you.

It does when you impugn another person's trustworthiness--when their kink makes them untrustworthy. That's an insult, it's perjorative, it has both a negative connotation and denotation. When we say we can trust a person, it valorizes them, when we say we can't trust them, we are demonizing them. There's no one in the English speaking world that would feel good about being called untrustworthy.

If you had just said, like several other posters, "It's not my bag," you'd have been fine. The second you had to say something derogatory about other people's character because they don't agree with your kinks, you were out of line. It's so gratuitous too. Why do it? What the hell satke do you have in shitting on other people and their kink? What do you get out of insulting other people just because they are a little different than you?

Hey, how about instead of defending yourself, amending your comment? Why not "That was maybe a poor choice of words--I should have said I wouldn't feel safe with that kind of play." That would be gutsy--to have the moral courage to stand by your personal convictions on what kind of BDSM activities are appropriate for you, while acknowledging that you can do it without impugning other people's character.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to windchymes)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 4:14:16 PM

Posts: 203
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline

I would imagine that if we were talking about a Domme kicking her male slave's balls instead, we would have a minimum of condemnation. And to me that seems quite a bit more capable of damage.

_____________________________

You can lead a horse to water, but not a cow.

(in reply to julietsierra)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 4:20:09 PM

Posts: 324
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline

Sure, punching is an acceptable form of play. It's not necessarily any more physically trying than flogging or caning. It's pleasurable for the same general reasons as flogging or caning--because people like giving or receiving intense sensation. It's pleasurable because it's intimate, skin-on-skin contact, like an OTK spanking. It's pleasurable (mostly for the bottom, for this one) because it's a relatively broad, yet deep stimulation--it's a fairly specific kind of stimulation, and one hard to replicate exactly with implements.

Emotionally, it can be interesting as "thug play," or as resistance/takedown play, with overtones of roughness or brutality, but it doesn't need to be attached to such a roleplay theme. It's true that punching is emotionally more loaded, in general, than caning or flogging, but that's true of hand spanking or face slapping, or even impact with more common household implements like hairbrushes and belts. Sometimes, too, an activity is fun because it has emotional associations--tons of people like humiliation play.

Also, I don't think punching is a particularly gendered kind of play. I'm a woman, and I punch women and men. I've seen men punch women, and men punch men.

As for where you punch, you're right in identifying the abdomen as a somewhat risky place to punch. You can do it, especially with well-developed ab muscles, but it requires more precision and care. It's also a different, and often undesired kind of pain. Easier, and often more pleasant areas include the chest, the thighs, the buttocks, and the back. Kindly don't punch joints opposite to the way they flex (hyperextension)--that's where it gets quite risky.

Because this thread will likely receive hits from people who want to try punching as play: I've got a background in fighting sports, and this helps me understand how to use my body in impact play. (And, for that matter, in pressure point play, and wrestling.) I think studying boxing or non-western martial arts helps one learn to use fighting techniques in BDSM play. It's hardly a requirement, but I imagine you'll be able to do it more effectively and more safely if you have some idea of technique. It also helps you develop more versatility; punching is just the tip of the body-impact iceberg. You can use your hands in many other ways, you can do shoulder checks, kick people, and use elbows and knees to good effect. It's great fun, and just as okay as hitting people with dead cows and varnished trees. In fact, it's probably safer, since most people have finer control over their own body parts than they have over implements held in the hand.

(in reply to Domspaintoy)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 4:20:28 PM

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Hello everyone,

I happen to love bottoming to kicking and punching scenes. In fact, I have one lined up at Thunder that I've been trying to make happen for about a year and a half now. I have also been the demo bottom for more than one kicking and punching workshop. A few folks who read these boards may have been to those workshops and seen me get gut-punched more than once. I happen to be in good physical shape because my Teacher makes sure that I get a lot of exercise, including lots of sit ups and push ups and I can take getting kicked or punched in the gut. Do I advise it for someone who doesn't have strong abdominal muscles - definitely not - but there are a whole lot of things I wouldn't advise for people who are seriously out of shape - including a lot of the other activities that BDSM folks engage in. However for me, there is something of a personal challenge for me to getting punched, recovering from it and standing up for another one. I also happen to enjoy kicking and punching from a Top's perspective.

Kicking and punching absolutely can be done safely. The people who I have done kicking and punching with are people who are very knowledgeable and have training from various sources, including martial arts. In terms of learning how to do it, the two people I would recommend are FifthAngel and Mark Frazier. They both teach classes on the topic. I don't know when Mark is next teaching it, but FifthAngel is teaching "The Gentle Art of Kicking, Punching, and Takedowns " at The Spirit of the Islands in Hawaii in September (www.leathersmarts.com). I haven't attended any of Midori's classes where punching is a topic, but I have bottomed to her for punching and had a seriously good time. Also, she brings serious quality to everything she teaches, so she's probably a good source of information also.

Take care,

Peggy

(in reply to givemyall)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 4:50:52 PM

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

I think this is one of those things that really pushes people to think past social contigencies.

In a logical and objective train of thought, there is absolutely zero difference between using a bullwhip, a hard cane or a solid paddle to inflict pain verse the human fist.

However, culturally, we've been taught to associate punching someone as abuse. Personally, despite my own logical approach to this, as I read the posts about male doms punching female subs, images of a drunken redneck in a wife beater abusing his wife with his fist pop into my head.

I think people make that connection between punching and domestic abuse as opposed to the paddle, whip, or cane that arent automatically associated with it.

I view this really as just another hurdle to get past...much like the first hurdle many people had to get past regarding associating S/M and leather with a bunch of sexed crazied leather psychopaths.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to PeggyO)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 5:57:18 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy

when does punching your sub/slave in the stomach or anywhere become an acceptable BDSM past time?

I dunno. Probably when both parties have consented, as usual.

quote:

Surely never? [...] surely punching is simply abuse and if not how is pleasure gained from punching your sub/slave?

How is pleasure gained from belting, caning, spanking, or anything else that hurts?
I don't punch. At least, except for the rear end, where it works like spanking.
Personally, I'd consider it risky, depending on what you mean by "punch".
The abdomen is certainly not a spot I'd pick, if I ever were to punch.
That is, not on a woman; they have bits that can be damaged there.
A man, if he clenches his sixpack, can take one with little risk.
Stomach upset, particularly obstipation, contraindicates it.
Again, it also depends on what one means by "hard".
I'm assuming this person has not felt hard yet.
A truly hard punch doesn't hurt, it injures.
As in a ruptured spleen, kidneys, etc.
Or peritonitis and internal bleeding.

quote:

lets face it we are generally talking about male Doms and female subs/slaves.

Not necessarily, though men are more likely to punch, because they don't have the same taboos surrounding the topic, and generally know how to from schoolyard scuffles. If you don't lock your wrist and tuck your thumb, the experience will be a lot more unpleasant for yourself than the person you are punching. Most women I've taugh to punch, initially punch the wrong way, while the men more often just need to learn how to support the punch properly.

I've seen femdoms punch (and kick) malesubs, though.

Mostly harder than I would have done the other way around, had that been my kink.

quote:

Am i being naive? i dont think so but whats the Master's/Sir's/Doms take on this one?

It can be a red flag.
Or it can just be play.
It depends on the context.
Belting someone can be abuse.
It can also be mutually satisfying play.
The same thing goes for spanking and caning.
Or any other sadism-related form of kink, really.
Objectively speaking, a punch need not be any different.
But a punch requires more skill to be safe to use in a play context.
Given proper training, including a detailed knowledge of anatomy, it can be used.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Domspaintoy)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 5:58:06 PM

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

I've stopped answering, the OP because it would seem that none of the points I have made have been read or understood rather prefering to engage in the flame war than actually discuss the matter at hand.

But Mad Rabbit that point is one of the draws for this kind of play on the emotional level.
Playing with the images of abuse busting through the idea that it must be abuse if they use fists and kicks, can be a very freeing thing for the Top and the bottom both.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:02:51 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domspaintoy

Exactly. Its unsafe and i cant see how it could ever be made a safe thing to do.

Like anything else ... learning how to do it safely.
Punching the abdomen without undue risk takes a bit of skill.
Doing it with a woman on the receiving end puts most of the abdomen off-limits.
With the right angle and such, though, you can still affect the celiac plexus fairly safely.
That's pretty much the only target that gives a response you wouldn't get easier elsewere.

Though, as I said, I don't do it.
For me, punching mentally sorts under violence.
There's no objective reason for that, except I don't want to blur the line.
If others can do it without blurring their own line, or their notion of violence is milder than mine, more fun to them.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Domspaintoy)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:05:05 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Normaly restricted to shoulders, arms, legs etc where there is no chance of internal injury.

Depending on how hard you punch, these are all susceptible to injury.
Particularly the front of the shoulder; a clavicle breaks very easily.
It doesn't take more than a slight miss for a punch to do that.
And on the left side, there's the subclavian, of course.
As usual, it depends on skill and intensity.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:21:25 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

It's stunning to see a bunch of people at a BDSM site [...]

~nod~

To most of the population, meaning the vanillas, any pain inflicted is over the line.
I'm okay with anything people do, as long as there is proper consent.
For me, I put it on the other side of a line I mark with "violence".
Moving lines about is something we all have done, though.

The reason I don't cross this line, is the other stuff on the other side of that line. I don't want to mix it up. In either direction. The stuff on the other side of that line, for me, is primal self-defense: neutralize person X, at any cost. I don't want to pull any of that over into my play. And I don't want to pull anything called "play" into a life-or-death self-defense situation. It's not the actions, but the mindset. Simple as that.

Most people don't have that content on the other side of that line.

quote:

breath play

Was waiting for that.

quote:

You punch someone in the gut, your hitting their intestines.

Kinetic energy travels, but basically, yes. Depends on how hard you punch. Since she said "hard", I'd assume not very hard. I've never heard anyone who had been punched hard in the abdomen describe it with that word. YMMV.

quote:

You'd have to really, really wallop someone to damage them.

Or hit the wrong spot at the wrong angle.
Or there needs to be a distention of the intestines at that point.
But, in general, yes, it takes a lot more than people think to do actual damage.
Women are more sensitive, though, according to what I've been told.
At least if they want to get pregnant in the future.
I never checked up on that, just noted it.

The risk doesn't remotely compare to a lot of other kinks, though.

Mostly, the barrier is mental, but I wouldn't suggest doing it without training.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Faramir)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:22:08 PM

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I've stopped answering, the OP because it would seem that none of the points I have made have been read or understood rather prefering to engage in the flame war than actually discuss the matter at hand.

But Mad Rabbit that point is one of the draws for this kind of play on the emotional level.
Playing with the images of abuse busting through the idea that it must be abuse if they use fists and kicks, can be a very freeing thing for the Top and the bottom both.

The first time that I watched my Lord play it included kicking. I was so scared watching him. The others I had watched play seemed like child's play compared to the intensity between him and Alandra. As he said I was huddled in the corner of his dungeon where he put me, knowing that he was going to play me like that eventually.

It didn't take long before I was asking to experience kicking; just like it hasn't taken long for me to ask to try needles. Breaking down the emotional and mental barriers of mainstream taboos or old fears is very freeing and quite rewarding.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Archer)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:35:05 PM

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Rough body play is a huge fetish. For some, a gang beating is as erotic as a gang bang.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Domspaintoy)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:38:38 PM

Posts: 129
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Doing it with a woman on the receiving end puts most of the abdomen off-limits.

Hello,

I'd like to know exactly why most of the abdomen is off limits with a woman. Can you give me some medical information there. I'd be curious to run it by the medical professionals I know that do punching scenes.

And to clarify - I have been hit pretty damned hard. To the point of truly not being able to get up for a good five or ten minutes - to the point of the wind being knocked out of me. As my abdominals have gotten stronger, I can take more. And yes, I usually feel a bit nauseous after getting kicked or punched in the gut. And yes, people in the audience tend to find it disturbing. I have had no ill effects however.

Again, I am curious what the medical reasoning is for women not doing abdominal punching play.

Take care,

Peggy

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:39:52 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

[...] I was punched unintentionally [...] right between my breasts.

Don't do that.

That's pretty close to where the sternum meets the manubrium, and it is also close enough to the heart to pose an unnecessary risk. As for the latter, I'm not talking about direct injury, that takes force beyond what a "sane" person would bring to bear during play, but if the timing of the hit is just right (or, really, wrong), you get what is known as commotio cordis, which can put you directly into ventricular fibrillation.

I know the risks are small, but quite often, when you hear of someone collapsing during a sports event and dying, while they were perfectly fit, that's this mechanism at work. If a hit strikes during the ascending phase of the T-wave with sufficient force, the rythm of the heart is disturbed, causing sudden death.

About one in fourty hits- with sufficient force- to this area will cause cardiac arrest.

Compare this with one in six hundred unprotected intercourses with HIV-positive individuals leading to infection.

quote:

Not super hard, but hard enough to knock the wind out of me for about 30 seconds.

Strike the celiac plexus instead, at a slightly upward angle. A light (by my reckoning) punch will knock the wind out of you for at least 30 seconds, and be more shocking. A heavy punch will leave you on the ground, unable to breathe properly, for about two minutes. Speaking from experience, those also count as shocking...

quote:

It has the potential of being a turn on for me.

By all means. But I'd recommend asking an OB-GYN doc about how to avoid any risk of damage to the internal reproductive organs first. And asking about the right angle to deliver a "pulse" to the celiac plexus would also be advisable.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Aileen68)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:44:02 PM

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Amen!! My owner also punches/slaps and kicks. It is the only form of s/m he engages in. He is tactile and wants his hands on the person he is hurting. He also pretty much punches anywhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

LOL They hypocrisy of this is too funny. It is perfectly acceptable for a man to grab an instrument with his hand and beat the hell out of someone in BDSM play. But if he removes the instrument and just uses his hands then it is no longer BDSM and no fucking way should it ever be done. LOL

I love, love, love rough body play. Kicking, punching, slapping are some of my favorite forms of play. I love that flesh to flesh primal energy that gets going between me and him. It is also just hot to watch.

He will kick, punch and slap just about anywhere. He avoids areas where there is little protection to the internal organs because it is a risk that he does not ususally want to take. However, when I was in kickboxing, I used to get punched in the stomach rather regularly as part of our training and my body is none the worse for wear. So even though it is higher risk than punching other places, it can be done without harming the person.

This is an awesome form of play, very primal and a great release to any pent up emotions. The event in Oklahoma that we just went to had many sessions on this type of play. It is something that is regularly practiced by many.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to kyraofMists)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:47:11 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: colkron

If someone punched me, I'm afraid I'd punch them back.

Kind of off-topic, but a therapist once asked my nephandi whether I hit her.
So she said "No, and if he did, I'd punch him back."
Oddly, he didn't inquire further.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to colkron)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:50:12 PM

MySweetSubmssive

Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

By all means. But I'd recommend asking an OB-GYN doc about how to avoid any risk of damage to the internal reproductive organs first. And asking about the right angle to deliver a "pulse" to the celiac plexus would also be advisable.

In a non-pregnant healthy woman (i.e. not having fibroid tumors in the uterus to enlarge it), the uterus barely crests the pubic symphysis, if at all. For most non-pregnant women, you have to press firmly into the abdomen and down behind the pubic symphysis to touch the uterus. The ovaries are typically posterior and lateral to the uterus and therefore protected from any blows to the abdomen.

MSS

edited because I cannot seem to maintain a thought from one moment to the next

< Message edited by MySweetSubmssive -- 7/4/2007 6:54:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:53:16 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Poppygirl

so basically its a "fight club" scenerio. i wish to be a tension release for my Dom, but truly a punchingbag, never.

Fight Club works well.
The idea wasn't all that silly.
I know people who are into those.
They arrange fight nights with loose rules.
Everyone has a lot of fun beating each other up.
And, of course, getting themselves beaten up as well.
Throwing BDSM into the mix sounds like it might be quite fun.
But only when the sub is wired for that kind of exchange, which mine isn't.
It probably does amazing things when you've got a bunch of switches going at it.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Poppygirl)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:53:45 PM

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I've stopped answering, the OP because it would seem that none of the points I have made have been read or understood rather prefering to engage in the flame war than actually discuss the matter at hand.

But Mad Rabbit that point is one of the draws for this kind of play on the emotional level.
Playing with the images of abuse busting through the idea that it must be abuse if they use fists and kicks, can be a very freeing thing for the Top and the bottom both.

Oh I agree. Its the same freedom I would image is present in rape and kidnapping scenes. (I cant speak from actual experience. Just speculation).

Though...the point certainly explains why your so many valid and logical points have been ignored in this thread.

Personally, I appreciate your replies. I've learned a lot about a certain kink I never really was aware about up until this thread.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Archer)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 6:57:08 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Not My bag, I prefer resistance play of a more judo based style, but much lower risk of serious complications if a mistake is made due to inexperience.

I'm not sure I agree there. An improperly done judo throw can leave you with bones sticking out in all the wrong places. Although, admittedly, ju-jutsu would probably be riskier for an untrained participant. My personal preference would probably be Aikido, but I still wouldn't suggest going at it until one is fairly experienced.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Punching your sub/slave?

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

0.090