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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 9:23:03 PM

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I'd rather be involved in the studies conducted myself before I worry about going 'up in arms' over an article. My IQ is above average and I tend to limit my social contact to small numbers. I always assumd that tendancy was due more to personality than my intelligence level.

As for intelligence... that can be difficult to measure. A person can be intelligent and still display startlingly stupid behavior. In this particular city, I see 'moronic' behavior all around me. These apparent idiots appear in both genders, but I admit that more are male than female. It could be upbringing, I suppose. Or society's conditioning. Or too much testosterone. I really can't say for certain.

Here is my bottom line, though. I'm female, I'm intelligent, and I've learned not to give a rat's ass if someone attacks me for either. I'm just not threatened by it. I am what I am. One thing I am not is an ass kisser. That's one reason I earn less. I don't care about jumping through social hoops to climb the corporate ladder.

zuma

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 9:31:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

... 4 points isn't a huge difference, but I wonder what the future will hold for our species just the same.

I'm, no statistician (in fact, I don't even think I spelled it right) but, I am almost positive that 4% iS considered "statistically insignificant".

Personally, I think that the two genders' brains operate in different ways.

On the whole, I have found that ladies tend to be more emotionally driven while men tend to be more logical.

Now, there are times when either of these "virtues" will get one into trouble. I curse that fact that I am not a more emotional person, every time a submissive comes to me with a request that falls in that vein. My logic kicks in and, invariably, I screw up the whole situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL:Sinergy

For me, a woman who would want to have sex with a man who so devalues her intrinsic humanity is not somebody I would ever be interested in having sex with.

I almost agree, Sinergy. I prefer to paraphrase Groucho Marx: "I won't have anything to do with any lady that would have a member like mine." (I said I was paraphrasing!)

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by Satyr6406 -- 7/13/2007 9:52:00 PM >

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 9:38:04 PM

Mikal

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I haven't read all of the posts, nor have I listened to the whole 'news' video, but I would caution taking anything Rushton says at truth. Yes, he is tenured at the University of Western Ontario, but that does not make him credible. He has done numerous studies on intelligence - all (that I am aware of) are faulty to varying degrees. For example, Rushton did numerous studies* on African (Black), Oriental, and Caucasian (White) men regarding their intelligence. He published his findings, stating that White men were more intelligent than their Black counterparts, but that Asians were the most intelligent. HOWEVER, if you look at how he went about his 'studies', you'll find faults. For example, for the Black men, he used brains from men who had been dead for a while, and died of unknown causes (this means that their brains could have been dehydrated, missing parts (ie due to stroke - the brain cleans up the dead cells and the blood gets rid of them), etc.), whereas the White men were freshly dead, and the cause of death was known.

Here's something else to think about: The majority of Rushton's 'research' (that I am aware of), centers on Race. That is, one race in inherently better (more intelligent) than the others. This is mostly based on brain size. So, if brain size is the reason why Black people are less intelligent, more violent, more promiscuous (yes, these are in his published papers... Asians are smarter, but lower sex drive, Whites intermediate, Blacks at the bottom), then women MUST be inferior to men because their brains are smaller. You can't have one argument without the other. Other researchers and critics noted this. Then Rushton does some more research, and what do you know? Women are less intelligent.

* Wanted: More race realism, less moralistic fallacy. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law. Vol 11(2), Jun 2005, pp. 328-336
Race is more that just skin deep: A psychologist's view. MANKIND QUARTERLY, vol. 39, no.2, pp.231-249, 1998

There is quite a bit more, but I'm tired and don't feel like writing that much. There are two final points I'd like to make (then I'll stop. Promise):

One is that Rushton bases his arguments on genetics, not nurture. In that, I mean that he doesn't view environmental causation as being legitimate. So even if you are born into a violent society (ghettos), where might makes right (strongest survive on personal physical strenght), inadequate access to education... that wouldn't affect a persons intelligence. Nor would improper nutrition affect brain size or study habits or concentration ability.

Two is that the 'studies' state causation (that large brains cause high intelligence), rather than correlation (that people with large brains tend to have high intelligence). Correlation does not imply causation.

Thanks for reading (or faking it).

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 9:53:22 PM

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It's 4 points, not 4% (IQ tests aren't on a percentage scale), and a consistent difference of 4 IQ points would be statistically significant. (I say "would be," not "is," because I haven't read this guy's paper and don't want to sound as though I'm endorsing it.)

Just wondering though...if you know you're not a statistician, on what basis can you be "almost positive" that something isn't statistically significant?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

I'm, no statistician (in fact, I don't even think I spelled it right) but, I am almost positive that 4% i considered "statistically insignificant".

(in reply to Satyr6406)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 9:58:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Just wondering though...if you know you're not a statistician, on what basis can you be "almost positive" that something isn't statistically significant?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

I'm, no statistician (in fact, I don't even think I spelled it right) but, I am almost positive that 4% i considered "statistically insignificant".

I know statisticians? I can listen, when others who do know what they're talking about impart knowledge.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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Peace and comfort,

Michael

Former Vice-President Gore didn't invent the internet but, he DID make up global warming!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 10:00:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Satyr6406

Personally, I think that the two genders' brains operate in different ways.

On the whole, I have found that ladies tend to be more emotionally driven while men tend to be more logical.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I don't think it has much to do with how the brain operates. I think it ties in with the differences in how boys and girls are reared. Men are expected by society to be logical while women are expected to be emotional. Women can relate to each other on an emotional level. If a man is emotional, he's viewed as a wuss. The same holds true with logical reasoning. Men relate to each other through logic. If a woman communicates with a man using logic, he thinks she's strange. Trust me, I've tried it many times.

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 10:03:40 PM

Mikal

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Aaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh! I can't shut my brain off!!!

Ok. Next point I'm gonna make: the IQ test (aka Binet or Simon-Binet Scale) was originally developed for school children in France by Alfred Binet to differentiate between children who were intellectually normal, those who were superior, and those who were inferior. The purpose was to put the children into appropriate schools based on their scholastic needs.

Binet himself cautioned against misuse of the scale or misunderstanding of its implications ~ the scale was designed with a single purpose; to serve as a guide to identify children in the schools who required special education. It was not designed to be used as “a general device for ranking all pupils according to mental worth.”* Binet also noted that “the scale, properly speaking, does not permit the measure of intelligence, because intellectual qualities are not superposable, and therefore cannot be measured as linear surfaces are measured.”*

Intelligence can not be described as a single score, and the use of the IQ scale as a definite and final statement of a child's (or adult's) intellectual capability would be a severe and limiting mistake. Seems to me, that we as a society have done very well in making such a mistake.

Finally, there is another problem with IQ tests: individuals with learning disabilities. Granted, the IQ test was developed over a century ago, but 'learning disabilities' did not exist then. Although the IQ test has been re-done since then, the current one is still based on the original. Most people with learning disabilities have deficiencies in one or more of the component skills that are part of these IQ tests — memory, language, fine motor skills, etc. So, they may end up having a lower IQ score than a person who does not have such problems, even though the learning disabled people may both have identical (or better) reasoning and problem-solving skills.The lower IQ score may be a result of the learning disability, not of actual intelligence. Personally, I think that IQ scores underestimate the real intelligence of the individual with a learning disability, and of a persons potential intellectual capacity.

* Gould, S. J., The Mismeasure of Man (New York: W. W. Norton, 1981), 151-152

Ok. Now I'm done.

Edited to add: If men are sooo logical, and not emotional, why is it men who start wars? Who is it that is an emotional baby when they're sick? Logic would dictate to ask for directions when lost, intead of driving around like you know where you are. Just sayin'

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 10:09:50 PM

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Edited to add this is a fast reply.

I didn't read the articles, regardless I don't believe everything I read.
Okay talking about which gender has the highest IQ, generally speaking.
This study says it is men by points, then someone please explain to me why men
think up the stupidest damn things, which would never even enter a woman's mind?
I witness men much more often come up with really stupid ideas and not only that,
they follow through on them.

Just watch any "funny" videos show and see the stupid ass things they do.
How about "JackAss" and all the stupid thinking men they brought out of the closet?
I recall them sitting around in a circle, legs spread wide open, only wearing their
underwear and throwing a big rawhide dog bone at each other's crotches to see who
could stand it the longest before getting out of the circle, woman just do not think
like that, doing that would never ever even enter their minds.

I know there must be a lot of really smart guys out there, but it's not something I
run into or witness in over abundance.

Hummm, funny, because I do meet and witness lot of really smart women.

Missy.

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 10:10:01 PM

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Yes, good post, Mikal. I think IQ tests have two very good general uses:

1. To identify intellectually gifted children who could benefit from a special curriculum. If a young child is bored in school and doesn't seem to be applying himself or herself, it would be useful to know if that child scores 130+ on an IQ test.

2. To identify severe intellectual defects in schoolchildren and defendants in criminal cases. If someone is convicted of a grotesque crime, it would be useful to know if he or she scores a 60 on an IQ test.

Beyond that, I have serious doubts about their usefulness.

(in reply to Mikal)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 10:50:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikal
Edited to add: If men are sooo logical, and not emotional, why is it men who start wars? Who is it that is an emotional baby when they're sick? Logic would dictate to ask for directions when lost, intead of driving around like you know where you are. Just sayin'

You had me going as quite the facinating, probably well informed egghead until this addition.

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/13/2007 11:12:31 PM

Mikal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikal
Edited to add: If men are sooo logical, and not emotional, why is it men who start wars? Who is it that is an emotional baby when they're sick? Logic would dictate to ask for directions when lost, intead of driving around like you know where you are. Just sayin'

You had me going as quite the facinating, probably well informed egghead until this addition.

Egghead? Aside from being used as a term for bald men, I'm not familiar with it. Care to explain?

As for the facinating, well informed bit... I fake it well

.

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 12:14:44 AM

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Wars and refusal to ask for directions are directly related to the male ego. Men do have a tendency to be logical, until their ego becomes involved. Competition and conquering are viewed as manly. They consider asking for directions or other forms of help a weakness because men are supposed to be self sufficient. These feelings are understandable. What I find confusing about men is their complaining about women not using logic, yet thinking women are strange when they are logical.

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 2:25:57 AM

NefertariReborn

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Just a little piece to chime in here. IQ tests measure cognitive ability at a PARTICULAR, STATIC, point in time. They are not dynamic nor are they an adequate predictor of how all people will perform somewhere down the road. Thank God, Einstein didn't take one before he began to show promise in Math. (He didn't do well for the longest time.) Imagine no E=Mc2 because he got shuttled off to the short yellow bus school based on early math scores.

Secondly, and this comes from My love of social sciences, "genius" is determined by the culture in which you exist. If your community is based primarily on fishing it doesn't matter much if you can differentiate high level calculus problems. If you couldn't throw the nets worth a damn, you'd be special ed material. Here's My HO: stop looking for reasons to treat someone as "the other". These false dichotomies do nothing for society except tear it down and set us in competition in areas where we need not compete.

barbarian you'll find that the bell curve has very racial beginnings as well. And to stir the pot even more....there was a recent study that classed people in terms of insect behaviour. Asians scored highest, whites second, and blacks (I'm not american so I really can't use afro american) were lowest...forming no social bonds and mating here and there etc etc. Can you see the stereotypes coming out of this too? My first thought was so how did the Native Americans score? Anyone have a quantitative marker for the Latinos? Pacific Islanders? Or don't they count as people? Anyhooo I'll note here that my objection in no way comes from a minority perspective. I'm the majority in My country and never experienced any form of racism until I went to the US for college and university. It is not My lived experience and I refuse to take it on.

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 2:44:25 AM

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I think that what IQ tests do or do not measure is a red herring. Sit a test and have a marker set against you ? Naaaaagh.

One true indicator of intelligence is what people do. When judged like that anyone who is not totally dishonest ought to recognise, cannot fail to recognise, that there exist creative differences between the sexes and between the races.
It is not PC to admit that but that doesn't make it untrue.

With regard to the title of the thread...women stupid...men listen....my guess is that the male doesnt want to upset his female partner too much because he knows he wont get any nookie for a while. lol
It follows that Men really are suffering heroes. NO?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 7/14/2007 2:48:05 AM >

(in reply to NefertariReborn)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 2:49:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion
If there is any truth to this "study" why would this be an issue for you? Seems like you like them to be mindless twits that can be easily reprogrammed.

I don't speak moron, there would be a potential language barrier problem in that case. I'm all for smarts.

So how do you feel when a woman with a far higher IQ than you, thinks you are a moron ?

This 4 points you mention is just based on overall scores but is meaningless. Many people have a high IQ but lack ambition and confidence, and vice versa. There is more to earning a living than just being smarty.

On the plus side i can just tell any Mistress i chat to that She doesnt know what She is talking about, and direct them to this thread. So thanks for the help.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 2:51:07 AM

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Studies over here show that there is a major difference in college graduates, i e its something like 65 percent are females compared to the 35 percent of males. so i dont think that IQ has anything to do with it.

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 2:55:07 AM

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Well I think its hard to deny that educational standards have been dumbed down so maybe that's the reason.

Is there a logical fallacy in what I have just said ?
Not really I tell myself, once education goes all "touchy feely" it puts the boys off.

(in reply to JustCatherine)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 2:58:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: reba

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU ARE PERFECT? ALL YOU GUYS THINK THAT WHAT IS IN YOUR PANTS IS ALL THAT IS IMPORTANT. BULL I WOULD LIKE TO
CUT IT OFF

Dude, you have some major issues! I don't judge based on gender. Get a sex change so I can hit you, since I wouldn't fight with a girl.

Erm, sorry, but I have to take issue here.

What is this with all this gender-stereotype reinforcement nonsense?

I put myself forward as living proof that men and women are different.

But the thing is contrary to this very popular myth you cannot just go off 'and get a sex change' and it is belief in this myth that causes so much pain, heartache, stress, and difficulties for transsexuals through prejudice from other people.

About 25% of suicides committed in North America 10% are committed by transgendered people. Even when you overlook the murders and suicides of transgendered people you also have to look at the loss of employment, difficulties in finding employment, homelessness, loss of custody, divorce, sexual abuse, the difficulties in finding friends, a partner, anything, difficulties with getting the right medical treatment, even with being treated properly, the loneliness, the isolation, the depression, the stress and many other difficulties and problems.

I don't have data, but it can take up to 20 years to make that transition from your 'birth' gender to your 'real' gender, but I would guess most manage to do it within 3 to 9 years.

Believe me my friend, there's nothing really funny about gender reassignment which is why I for one took offence at what you posted here.

Next time the expression 'sex change' comes into your head, just stop and think before it comes out of your mouth, okay?

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RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 3:02:03 AM

NefertariReborn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I think that what IQ tests do or do not measure is a red herring. Sit a test and have a marker set against you ? Naaaaagh.

One true indicator of intelligence is what people do. When judged like that anyone who is not totally dishonest ought to recognise, cannot fail to recognise, that there exist creative differences between the sexes and between the races.
It is not PC to admit that but that doesn't make it untrue.

With regard to the title of the thread...women stupid...men listen....my guess is that the male doesnt want to upset his female partner too much because he knows he wont get any nookie for a while. lol
It follows that Men really are suffering heroes. NO?

There aren't creative differences, there are social differences and even those social differences are deeply rooted in geographical culture.

Men are suffering heroes? Tell Me you mean the soldiers around the world (And that better include women soldiers.) Because if you mean men as a gender....well.....*looks at that. laughs and goes to another thread*

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

RE: Women are...stupid and bossy and men listen? - 7/14/2007 3:13:23 AM

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quote:

NefertariReborn
There aren't creative differences, there are social differences and even those social differences are deeply rooted in geographical culture.

How do social differences eliminate creative differences then ?
Creative differences are likely to result in social differences. NO?
Whatever "social differences" means., in this debate anyway
Anything and everthing is my guess.

Nefertari: I just tried to read you profile. Black on Blue text makes it virtually invisible.
Is that an example of female intelligence or should I recognise that you didn't want any one to be able read it ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 7/14/2007 3:16:24 AM >

(in reply to NefertariReborn)

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