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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 3:57:16 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the scenario where the guy insists 'she' get an abortion.
Many young women going to their boyfriend get the response that they aren't going to be a parent no how - no way. The guys have college to go to, a life they don't want interrupted.

If men are anti choice then why aren't THEY taking steps to get vasectomies?
Why don't they make sure the female is on birth control? Yes I know bc can fail but it has to be used in order to fail. 'But condoms don't feel good honey'.

Men say that by having the woman retain control of their body cuts them (males) out of the loop, well then men just make sure that the pregnancy doesn't happen.
If it does happen then step up to the plate like a man ought to.

How many guys dump their girlfriends because 'the girl' got herself pregnant?

How many females are left on their own emotionally, left to make the decision?

Abortion is not convienent or easy. Physically easy. Emotionally.. that depends on the woman but it does take a physical toll.

We as humans can't even agree on when life begins. What I believe is not what everyone believes.

This thread has made me sad. So many seem unable to look at the other side much less actually have the ability to understand the other side. I realise that for many people life begins at contraception and that abortion is a horrific act to a helpless creature. I DO understand that.
But not everyone believes that.
Until we can all agree to when life begins the abortion question/issue will never end.

I'd rather have a woman have an abortion than have child #5 in a one room apartment with no job. Why can't we work on those that have too many babies? Those that don't understand or have access to bc?
Planned Parenthood is often touted but I have personal experience of being denied birth control from them, so really it isn't readily available.
When I was on the pill it cost me over $35.00 a month, some people haven't that money. So hand out birth control dammit and maybe the need for abortion will lessen?


Excellent post, jenny. Too many men fall far too short when it comes to the issues you raise.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to camille65)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 4:32:20 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

If men got pregnant we would not be having this discussion.


Yep.



I couldn't disagree more.


As you asked earlier, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

It has been 21 years since I studied the topic in Feminist Theory, and I really dont have the energy to dredge up
the sources on deaths / year of women and their feti from back-alley abortions vs. the abortions per year of legally sanctioned medical practices by licensed practitioners.

Sinergy


Fair enough, Sinergy. I would agree that a lot of women don't lose their lives due to safe abortions, and I certainly don't want to see anyone lose their life (an aside: I don't like the people that target abortion providers, either).

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 4:56:05 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
How does this work with your advocacy of universal healthcare?


That's part of the social contract I have with other adult human beings. It makes perfect sense to me.

I just don't consider a mass of cells, or even a fairly developed fetus, a human being. I don't make contracts with cell masses inside my body. I mean, some of you have to stop and consider how ludicrous some of this shit sounds. Is an egg a human being? Answer: no. How about a sperm? Answer: no. Is a zygote a human being? Answer: no. Etc.

A fetus just shouldn't have any rights. It's absurd.

I like this from the Canadian Criminal Code:

-----

When child becomes human being
223. (1) A child becomes a human being within the meaning of this Act when it has completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother, whether or not (a) it has breathed; (b) it has an independent circulation; or (c) the navel string is severed.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowDoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII::bo-ga:l_IX//en?page=6&isprinting=true
[The URL might require scrolling, but it should be a print version of the correct page]

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:00:58 AM   
Level


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I apologize if I'm misunderstanding, but does the above mean that until the baby is actually outside the mother's body, it isn't alive, or a "human being"?
 
If so, then "ludicrous sounding shit" comes into play for me at that point.

< Message edited by Level -- 7/18/2007 5:01:29 AM >


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:03:45 AM   
camille65


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I 'think' he means that it is an issue of viability. Can it survive on its own outside the womb?

Of course I could be utterly mistaken lol, but I think that was the meaning.

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:23:04 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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This is a rights issue, plain and simple.

You are reading the statute as if ordinary terms and definitions are applicable - and they are not. That is Canada's legal definition of a human being, it's purpose is to answer this type of question:
When does a human being first begin to have rights and standing under the law such that the state might become a party to the protection of said rights and legal standing?

The semantic arguments revolving around the normal definitions of terms is immaterial. Likewise irrelevant would be any discussion as to when a human being might be imbued with a soul or spirit. The law shouldn't care about such things.

The only issue of any legal worth is when does a person begin to have rights.

(in reply to Level)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:29:09 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval 
The big questions that are not being asked here are -  
 
Why does the US have one of the highest unplanned adolescent pregnancy rates in the developed world?
We are on par with countries like Romania and Russia.

And what role does the lack of universal health care play in the high unplanned pregnancy rates?


The answers give more of the same.
 
Some will insist that access to legal abortions is a major factor in this rate being so high. Others will point to a lack of education and healthcare. The conditions of the poor will be discussed.
 
The answer may be somewhere in between. I would imagine we will never get that answer ... exactly who it going to budge and inch on this issue?
 
My guess is that RvW will be overturned soon, states will pass individual laws and we will see the return of "Taking the daughter to Arkansas for the weekend."

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:32:39 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

This is a rights issue, plain and simple.

You are reading the statute as if ordinary terms and definitions are applicable - and they are not. That is Canada's legal definition of a human being, it's purpose is to answer this type of question:
When does a human being first begin to have rights and standing under the law such that the state might become a party to the protection of said rights and legal standing?

The semantic arguments revolving around the normal definitions of terms is immaterial. Likewise irrelevant would be any discussion as to when a human being might be imbued with a soul or spirit. The law shouldn't care about such things.

The only issue of any legal worth is when does a person begin to have rights.


But a definition of when the person begins to have rights can be wrong. For many years, a black person in America did not have rights....
 
And if we agree the child is a person, then I can't condone denying them rights.

< Message edited by Level -- 7/18/2007 5:33:28 AM >


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:33:53 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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Caitlyn:

And Arkansas is going to be the defender of reproductive rights (i.e. choice) for women? Somehow I doubt that...


(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:37:45 AM   
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Running late for work; this has been a good, basically civil discussion, I hope no one goes ballistic before I get back to it . Have a good day, everyone.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:41:27 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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Level:

You want to get bogged down in the semantic argument I see. I'll pass on that. Ordinary definitions will not do here - the issue is solely whether "the thing" in question has, or should have, any rights under the law and when do those rights become effective.

Let me ask you this:
When is it proper for one person's rights to supersede those of another person?

And there you have the heart of the matter encapsulated in a single query.


< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 7/18/2007 5:42:38 AM >

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:50:10 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Running late for work; this has been a good, basically civil discussion, I hope no one goes ballistic before I get back to it . Have a good day, everyone.


Not me ... I'm hoping to see kSOL come back and start some shit with someone ... or maybe a few more people will talk down to a few others. Does anyone else think Sugar and CL are related? If we are really lucky, maybe some of those with "TOS immunity" will chime in. That would just make everyone's day!!
 
So, Level dear ... take that kinder-gentler stuff to work with you. We don't want it here.   

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 5:59:20 AM   
DSwriter


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From: New Hope, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
This thread has made me sad. So many seem unable to look at the other side much less actually have the ability to understand the other side. I realise that for many people life begins at contraception and that abortion is a horrific act to a helpless creature. I DO understand that.


All is not lost Camille.  Some of us men do understand your point of view, and do support your right to choose.

Abortion has always been a lightning rod issue.  We'll never resolve it here.  Just state our case ... and hopefully people on both sides will respect the opinion of the other.  That's about as much as we can hope for.

(in reply to camille65)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 6:55:39 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Running late for work; this has been a good, basically civil discussion, I hope no one goes ballistic before I get back to it . Have a good day, everyone.


Not me ... I'm hoping to see kSOL come back and start some shit with someone ... or maybe a few more people will talk down to a few others. Does anyone else think Sugar and CL are related? If we are really lucky, maybe some of those with "TOS immunity" will chime in. That would just make everyone's day!!
 
So, Level dear ... take that kinder-gentler stuff to work with you. We don't want it here.   


caitlyn:
Being a trouble maker and instigator has always endeared you to me.
thompson

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 7:01:57 AM   
domiguy


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I can't be the only one ....I would like to watch Ksol and caitlyn make love on a pile of dead feti.......What?....Oh wow!  ...Fine....I guess your kink is "better" than my kink....Fuckers!!!  

Why can't all be acceped here?...I love everybody.

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 9:08:57 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwriter

No one here is going to be able to answer the question: When does life begin?   One person says it starts as conception.  Someone else argues it happens at birth.  There is no easy answer.  All you have is your opinion.



A word often used as a synonym for opinion would be a person's choice.

I am not afraid to quote DEVO.

"Freedom of choice, is what you got.
Freedom from choice, is what you want."


I find it a bit ironic that people's opinions of when life begins or ends (their choice) is used to support or fight against a woman's right to have a choice about her own body.

I am still waiting for a rational explanation from all the right to lifers about why aborting a child of incest, rape, extensive genetic disorders, etc., is not also murdering a human child.  I mean, even if your 12 year old daughter is gang raped and becomes pregnant, the life growing inside of her is still human.  Seems to me that if you right-to-
lifers really and truly believed what you are preaching, you would rejoice at the gift of a child being born into your
family.

Sinergy


_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 9:45:36 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Caitlyn:

And Arkansas is going to be the defender of reproductive rights (i.e. choice) for women? Somehow I doubt that...




Or it could be a euphemism for getting an abortion secretly, while claiming to be opposed to them publicly.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 10:13:24 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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Thanks for the clarification. My brain just can't work out these mind-fucked statements.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 10:30:59 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSwriter

No one here is going to be able to answer the question: When does life begin? One person says it starts as conception. Someone else argues it happens at birth. There is no easy answer. All you have is your opinion.


Why the communal obsession with "where does life begin"? Bah. It's silly. And, no, it's not an opinion. It's usage.

Say a gargage is small. You put up a sign, "Only cars may enter", as they are the only ones that won't take damage/damage the gargage. One might have a van, which, as we all know, can also be referred to as a car. (A "car" may be more of a sedan-like model, specifically, or it may, in general, refer to an automobile, depending on usage.) This one may claim, "But I have a van, which, by the 'automobile in general' definition of 'car', meets your requirements." This one fails to understand that different definitions of a word form different words, even if they carry the same spelling, pounciation, grammatical usage, etc.

Therefore, one can define (vaguely, to spare myself unnecessary typing) a human's life as "starting at conception" or as "starting at birth". One definition is not more correct than the other. And it's not a god damned opinion. It's the usage on the part of the speaker. And to hell with any listenor who may intentionally mistake usage- he can cover his ears and say "la la la" all day, and not hear a thing, and it would be to similar effect.

If you use life, in the conception form, then use it as so. Base morals around it, whatever. If you use life, in the birth form, ditto. You can use it as both, and have different morals around each, or the same, if such suits.

Now, I realize a simple-minded, likely prevalent, notion of "murder" is "to end a human life without the consent of state" ('consent of state' is affixed to modify such things as self-defense killings, war-time combat killings, executions of the state, etc.). Then one asks, "What is life, in this definition? Is it a life that begins at birth, or one that begins at conception?" The answer to this is not a matter of opinion, either; it's simply undefined, not clarified by the law, nor agreed upon. To draw analogy, a group of men, running a bridge, may come together and agree that only cars may cross this bridge. Do they mean "cars", as in "automobiles", or as in, "sedan-like automobiles"? Neither. It wasn't defined. They simply never agreed on it, whether this was due to lack of agreement, forgetfullness, assumption, failure to consider alternate meanings of the word, or otherwise. Therefore, when one drives a van over such a bridge, did he break the law? The law isn't clear. While the courts claim, in such cases, to be "interrepting the law", they are actually defining it, adding to it- making it.

---

In any case, I have a test to attend, and a bit of last-minute cramming. Damn Chemistry and all the damn memorization is requires. I'll try to answer more posts later on this evening.

While I realize this is more thinking and consideration than most are accustomed to, I would like to invite all to do so. I haven't provided many answers yet- just points of consideration. It is not typical of my form to actually state my conclusions- I feel conclusions tend to be self-evident when the thinking is understood. This form is not for eurditicity's sake, but to give accurate answer, as the form of answer is rarely so simplistic as societial generalizations would have one come to indulge in the use of so often.

(in reply to DSwriter)
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RE: Louisiana bans partial birth abortion - 7/18/2007 10:47:43 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

I am still waiting for a rational explanation from all the right to lifers about why aborting a child of incest, rape, extensive genetic disorders, et


You'll be waiting a long time.  How can pro lifers say it's okay to abort in certain circumstances, yet not others?  How can they devalue someone because of 1) circumstance of conception (rape, incest), or 2) birth defect.  The child has no power over either of those things, how is it that they have less right-to-life than anyone else?    Just some thoughts.


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(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 180
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