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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:38:15 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Unless, of course, you feel that one with a deep ancestry tracing itself back to Africia isn't more likely to carry a predisposition for darker skin pigmentation than one tracing his deep ancestry back to, say, Ireland.



It began in Africa.

http://www.nature.com/nature/ancestor/index.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article2782518.ece

and here's something for all levels:

http://eureka.povlab.org/fiche.php?qid=130

Obviously, c'est le probleme de tous de rester informe. L'ignorance est deliberee, dans la plupart des cas.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:38:17 PM   
HydroMaster


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Status: offline 		From what I'm reading she is talking more about how the racial groups divide themselves up and treat eachother.  The genetic part came in as a side bar.  And now I feel like driving into town in a horse and buggy just for the hell of it.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:38:29 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Yes, but in the end doesn't all of our matriarchal dna trace back to the same place?


Well, we can trace the causes of our orgins back to the same place, or, well, that's the leading theory of the time.  A fairly good one, too.

Still, most carbon-based multicellular life on Earth can likely be traced back to the same beginnings (or several sets of them).  Still, we're differnt from fish, trees, etc.

To me, it seems people really are different.  Even being different mixes of similar genes can be quite a variation.  I just.. don't see why some feel this is a bad thing.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:39:58 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Go for it, HydroMaster: just make sure you get filmed driving that buggy. Preferably, not by the horse.



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:42:07 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		Since it is theorized and somewhat universally agreed upon that we all come from Africa....Any changes albeit over thousands of years have been primarily due to the environment that those travellers became accustomed to.....Brown eyes and darker skin were no longer necessary in lower light and cooler climates.....It's why brown hair and eyes are dominant....Isn't this correct?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:42:18 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Unless, of course, you feel that one with a deep ancestry tracing itself back to Africia isn't more likely to carry a predisposition for darker skin pigmentation than one tracing his deep ancestry back to, say, Ireland.



It began in Africa.

http://www.nature.com/nature/ancestor/index.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article2782518.ece

and here's something for all levels:

http://eureka.povlab.org/fiche.php?qid=130

Obviously, c'est le probleme de tous de rester informe. L'ignorance est deliberee, dans la plupart des cas.


And life started in a pool of primordial stew.  Including for lettuce.  So are you a cannibal when you have a salad?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:43:58 PM   
HydroMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster

So for ease of speech can we just use the race system? 



The race system? What would that be? Please, feel free to extrapolate: this is a very friendly jewscottifroganglosaxandslavic thread. You're welcome to express your thoughts.

Actually I don't feel that this is a friendly thread or that my views are welcome.  Seeing as how every time someone says anything that is contrary to your opinion they are immediately jumped on.

Raical System,  A system being a method of sorting data and Racial being the data that is being sorted.  The simple and commonly used black, white, hispanic, asian, mixed....whatever else you want to throw in there.  As I was saying....just a little simpler than trying to name off the latin sub-species names.  Good enough of a definition? 


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:44:15 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		There's nothing bad about humanity having 'specialised' according to its immediate environment. There is something bad in calling that a racial distinction though. Because all that specialisation we see (skin and eye and hair colour, mostly) is recent. And therefore, it's likely to change again in the next 8,000 years or so. DNA has very little to do with it; thus, race is out of the equation.

Capice?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:47:22 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster

So for ease of speech can we just use the race system? 



The race system? What would that be? Please, feel free to extrapolate: this is a very friendly jewscottifroganglosaxandslavic thread. You're welcome to express your thoughts.

Actually I don't feel that this is a friendly thread or that my views are welcome.  Seeing as how every time someone says anything that is contrary to your opinion they are immediately jumped on.

Raical System,  A system being a method of sorting data and Racial being the data that is being sorted.  The simple and commonly used black, white, hispanic, asian, mixed....whatever else you want to throw in there.  As I was saying....just a little simpler than trying to name off the latin sub-species names.  Good enough of a definition? 



No, your definition is definitely not good enough. You make sure that we all know your definition isn't good enough by saying : "whatever else you want to throw in there".

'Whatever'? 'Throw'?

Keep on talking though, as I said, it's very informative. Please.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:51:03 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Since it is theorized and somewhat universally agreed upon that we all come from Africa....Any changes albeit over thousands of years have been primarily due to the environment that those travellers became accustomed to.....Brown eyes and darker skin were no longer necessary in lower light and cooler climates.....It's why brown hair and eyes are dominant....Isn't this correct?


I don't really know why we have many of the particular traits we do, really.  I imagine a lot of what we know about it's pretty much guesses on what seems logical, largely assuming Vulcan's (the idea that the most simplistic explanation is normally the correct one).

But, yeah, it's strongly believed that the environment was a major factor effecting evolution (though it's not the only factor).

One thing I would like to point out is that, assuming everyone's from Africia, this doesn't make Africians less-evolved humans.  They simply stayed where they were and continued evolving, while others went elsewhere, also continuing to evolve.  None of us are "orginial" humans, nor did we evolve in the exact same ways, so we do have those differences.

We'd certainly have a lot of races in this world if no one ever moved and only bred within their home state/provinences/etc.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:54:42 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

There's nothing bad about humanity having 'specialised' according to its immediate environment. There is something bad in calling that a racial distinction though. Because all that specialisation we see (skin and eye and hair colour, mostly) is recent. And therefore, it's likely to change again in the next 8,000 years or so. DNA has very little to do with it; thus, race is out of the equation.


So your point is that it's a bad thing to acknowledge the racial differences in people, just because they're not Earth-shaking differences?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Capice?


Never.  You're arguing willful ignorance.

---

Look, to me, it sounds like you feel that one might carry on racially based hatred based on the acknowledgement that there are differences.  I suggest you reconsider this.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 8:58:38 PM   
HydroMaster


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Status: offline 		Whatever else means that it doesn't matter that much.  You can throw any physical difference in there you want because all race is is a system of words to describe what someone is seeing.  People dividing people into groups to sort out visual information recieved by the brain.  Everything in the world is grouped and sorted and named by people so that our stupid human minds can make sense of it.  That's why every type of flower has it's own name, why there are numerous types of deer, dogs, cats, birds, and just for kicks I'll us whatever else you want to throw in there.  Why can't you accept the simple fact that people want to sort out people in the same way? 

As I said in the beginning.  It is not right to treat people differently based on race but you still need to be able to accept that people are and will likely always be divided into racial groups.


*edited for dyslexia* 

< Message edited by HydroMaster -- 8/1/2007 9:00:21 PM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:05:11 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Perhaps it's a question of belief (how tedious...).

Because of the Human Genome project and other research, I don't believe there are 'races' within humanity. Please, prove to me that there are.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:06:34 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster

Whatever else means that it doesn't matter that much.  You can throw any physical difference in there you want because all race is is a system of words to describe what someone is seeing.  People dividing people into groups to sort out visual information recieved by the brain.  Everything in the world is grouped and sorted and named by people so that our stupid human minds can make sense of it.  That's why every type of flower has it's own name, why there are numerous types of deer, dogs, cats, birds, and just for kicks I'll us whatever else you want to throw in there.  Why can't you accept the simple fact that people want to sort out people in the same way? 

As I said in the beginning.  It is not right to treat people differently based on race but you still need to be able to accept that people are and will likely always be divided into racial groups.


*edited for dyslexia* 


Gasp.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:07:38 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Perhaps it's a question of belief (how tedious...).

Because of the Human Genome project and other research, I don't believe there are 'races' within humanity. Please, prove to me that there are.


Sure.  People with rather dark skin have a far higher incidence rate of sickel-cell anemia.  (If I spelt that right.)

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:16:21 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Sickle-cell is an inherited trait. It is no more a proof to the existence of 'race' within humanity than the prevalence of blue eyes in Poland.

PS: A 'racial trait' that is wide-spread throughout the Mediterranean basin and beyond? It's nothing to do with 'dark skin'. Please, read. http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html





< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/1/2007 9:20:34 PM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:20:50 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Perhaps it's a question of belief (how tedious...).

Because of the Human Genome project and other research, I don't believe there are 'races' within humanity. Please, prove to me that there are.



If you witnessed a crime, and a cop asked you to describe the assailant physically, would you just tell the cop you saw a 'human' do it?  



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:21:34 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Sickle-cell is an inherited trait. It is no more a proof to the existence of 'race' within humanity than the prevalence of blue eyes in Poland.


Yes, hunny, a prevalence of a variety of genetic ('inherited') traits belonging to a recognizable group of individuals isn't evidence of a race.

In any case, I need to step out for a bit.  Have fun.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:23:31 PM   
HydroMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster

Whatever else means that it doesn't matter that much.  You can throw any physical difference in there you want because all race is is a system of words to describe what someone is seeing.  People dividing people into groups to sort out visual information recieved by the brain.  Everything in the world is grouped and sorted and named by people so that our stupid human minds can make sense of it.  That's why every type of flower has it's own name, why there are numerous types of deer, dogs, cats, birds, and just for kicks I'll us whatever else you want to throw in there.  Why can't you accept the simple fact that people want to sort out people in the same way? 

As I said in the beginning.  It is not right to treat people differently based on race but you still need to be able to accept that people are and will likely always be divided into racial groups.


*edited for dyslexia* 


Gasp.


Is that an arguement?...I think we may be confusing racial difference with cultural difference.   And again how the human brain wants to put things into neat little rows and boxes.  Culturally we as a species are divided mainly by where we are not so much by race.The races came about by people living in those specific areas over time. So racial and cultural difference sort of when hand and hand.  So maybe our minds are just still trying to associate race with culture they originated in even though it's not really that true anymore.


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 9:25:20 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PS: A 'racial trait' that is wide-spread throughout the Mediterranean basin and beyond? It's nothing to do with 'dark skin'. Please, read. http://www.kfshrc.edu.sa/annals/143/rev9239.html


Oh, really?  I thought dark skin did it.  Like, if you got a great tan, you'd develope it.  Maybe, if I pretend I was referring to a specific legally-recongized race, such as "African American", it would be accurate?

Sorry.  There's only a certain point I can spoon feed concepts to until I find myself to tempted to tease the silly.  Do have fun trying to convince yourself poodles and great danes are the same thing, k?

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