RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/1/2007 10:55:39 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You know, when you say things like "Hispanic" and "Asian" are races, it might explain why you feel that people jump on you whenever you express your opinion.

How about "Funny-looking"...is that a race?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster

Actually I don't feel that this is a friendly thread or that my views are welcome. Seeing as how every time someone says anything that is contrary to your opinion they are immediately jumped on.

Raical System, A system being a method of sorting data and Racial being the data that is being sorted. The simple and commonly used black, white, hispanic, asian, mixed....whatever else you want to throw in there. As I was saying....just a little simpler than trying to name off the latin sub-species names. Good enough of a definition?

Something unusual about his recognition of the common system?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 12:06:18 AM

Termyn8or

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I did a jumpthrough, and I know about the hypersensitivity. Therefore I will go slow.

We are the human race, and I have no intention of going into the "if your Mother is a Jew". stuff. That makes it a race actually, but in reality it has no bearing on who can observe the Jewish faith.

What problems ? The first and forwemost problem is that when certain people even hear the word Jew they take offense, as if they are discluded from the human race.

Let's examine one fact. "Jews are very studious people on average, do well in school and are usually well supported in this effort by their Parents. They do not constantly play video games and seek entertainment, and this is mainly because they are taught right".

As it stands now, some may think this to be anti-semitic, as if I am implying that there is some master plan. Did I do that ? Do not read between the lines, read the lines.

If that is stereotypical, it is in a positive sense, so be it, but I realize that stereotypes do not apply to all. Now the shoe could be on the other foot. Discounting my racist, antisemitic, biased views, one could be putting one's self down.

Perhaps you should see what happens to Jamacians when put on a US diet, or what would happen if you gave a Nordic a plate of uncooked fish. Or perhaps tried to feed Polacks with Mexican food.

Like one poster started up with, we are like different breeds of dogs, or cats, or something. Try the same methods and diet to train a chihuahua and a mastiff. Try to use the same methods and diet on a house cat as a lion.

We have differences, and they need to embraced and studied so we may understand them better.We have alot to learn about one another, and that will happen before we progress. We can go no further if we can't take it. We are doomed if we can't even accept criticism.

Are we really finished as a race ? I mean all breeds. All creeds etc. Is that what is going to finish us once and for all, the inability or unwillingness to communicate with one another ?

Have I insulted anyone in this post ? YOU be the judge, I will be waiting to hear from the moderators, because I don't think I have insulted anyone.

Now can we discuss this calmly without rash and illogical statements of "no races" ? There are races as surely as there are breeds of dogs. An intelligent mind will not dismiss that without one hell of alot of brainwashing.

Get reality, it really sucks, but it's the only thing that'll save you.

T

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 12:58:38 AM

luckydog1

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Exactly what happens if you feed mexican food to a Polack? and I thought raw and pickled (uncooked) fish were a major part of the traditional Nordic diet. I think Jamicans do the same as anyone put on a typical American diet, they get fat.

This is an insanely semantic argument. Whatever term you want to use, the groupings exist. Race is a loaded word these days, so some get thier panties in a bunch over it. Seems to be the same people demanding absolute freedom of speech, and wanting a State refereed "fairness doctrine", go figure. Breed would probably be a more accurate term. Some groups might prefer the term "nation".

Someone pointed out that northern climates and low Sun make the skin go white or something....ever see an Innuit? Whites supposedly evolved in the central Asian region. And has there ever been any evidence that the first people from Africa, which seems pretty well established, were black or similar to today's inhabitants?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 12:58:44 AM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

The similarity has existed for longer than the variances and people need to be reminded of them.

That's wonderful you think that. But similarities and differences arrise at the exact same time in the absense of identical nature.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

You are playing word games to obscure your own meaning and to inject meaning into the words of others. If you cannot guess my motives perhaps it is because you are too busy projecting your own onto others.

True. How horrid of me for being accurate. Let's all pretend to be the same person, shall we? No more dictionary definitions nor reason. Go us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

I am trying to clarify the terms being used and abused.

Because using "race" by the dictionary-provided definition to describe different groups of human beings is "abuse"? What are you doing to do, call the police and report me for beating the word? Does it cry?

It's a word. One that makes sense. If you don't like a word, .. I don't know, learn a new language?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

i.e. WTF does brothers being separate individuals have to do with anything?

Seperate individuals? They're also different genetically. Which is my point. People aren't the same. At some level, recognizing these differences is useful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Go back to the OP and stop presuming that everything said is a response to your verbal manipulations or that definitions can be altered by them.

"Verbal manipulations"? Well, I would go for irony and point out how none of this is verbal but linguistic- but, that'd be teasing you a bit too much, now wouldn't it?

---

Look. I'm sorry if you invested your say in this thread before looking up what "race" meant, but I simply can't agree to overlook aspects and attributes of a genetically-based group of individuals as nonexistent for the sake of your ease.

If we needed proof you neither understand the meat of this topic nor the meaning of your own words, the above will serve adequately.

Z.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 1:05:31 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

If we needed proof you neither understand the meat of this topic nor the meaning of your own words, the above will serve adequately.

And this is what we call "trash talk".

Stick the points, or you're wasting time.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 1:31:45 AM

luckydog1

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But what happens if you feed Mexican food to a Polack?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 1:38:44 AM

CuriousLord

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Then he becomes Chinese. Duh.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 1:53:27 AM

seeksfemslave

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Havent read all this thread but it seems as though it rests on the usual "do gooder" assumptions that we are all the same, when viewed collectively and isn't it sad that so much inter cultural strife exists. Well yes it is sad but it is not going to go away however you define or deny racial differences.

I will know that an inter cultural tendency to similarity exists when I see an Australian Aborigine strutting his stuff, pimping his Ho and reciting Gangsta rap or a Jamaican Yardie playing first violin in the Kingston Symphony Orchestra.

Come on do gooders, get agrip and face facts lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/2/2007 2:00:32 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 2:09:20 AM

Zensee

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CL opines - "Because using "race" by the dictionary-provided definition to describe different groups of human beings is "abuse"? What are you doing to do, call the police and report me for beating the word? Does it cry?"

How am I supposed to take such twisted prose seriously? As if I said anything close to this.

The map is not the territory and the word is not the thing. The point is that the word race, as it is defined in most dictionaries and as it is used casually, reflects bad science. It may be useful or convenient, even poetic, but the categories are too broad, shifting and nebulous to be more than that.

We are each of us different. Are we each a race? We are all the same species. Is that our race? How many people make a race? How much territory does a race inhabit? How similar do we have to be to be a race? How different can we be before we are not of the same race? If I think two people belong to the same race but they disagree, who is right? Etc. etc.

These are all points that have been raised in one way or other so far and all points you have avoided in favour of rather bland sentiments.

How about you get down to brass tacks yourself. Let's have a little of your science on the topic.

Z.

Great Seeks - why don't you remind us of the facts already then?

< Message edited by Zensee -- 8/2/2007 2:10:22 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 2:31:21 AM

LadyEllen

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There are clearly races in humanity. Why, just this weekend we have the London athletics Grand Prix, where there will be 100m, 200m and many other races too, in which only humans may take part. This is clearly unfair to non humans, many of whom are able to run much more quickly than humans - however humans have this idea of being the superior animal on the planet and wilfully exclude the rest in order to perpetuate this myth.

E

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 2:35:30 AM

seeksfemslave

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The "facts" MrZ: when humans are viewed collectively, across a world wide spectrum, long lasting ,clearly identifiable and absolutely fundamental differences in behaviour, application and achievement are visible.Whether it is known what is the root cause of those differences is neither here nor there and affects the argument not one jot.

With todays almost instant world wide communication it just amazes me that certain groups, frequently with priviliged Western backgrounds and attitudes characterised by soppy blurred soft hearted misguided Liberal thinking, can deny those "facts"
Is Zimbabwe better off under the useless Mugabe regime ?
I rest my case m'lud. lol

Even if you take the worst excesses of say European wars or the American Civil war or the Western expansion in the USA then highly ingenious developments in weaponry logistics/transport etc came about. When judging these things "goodness" or "badness" are irrelevent NO?

Yes LadyE and notice which types win the explosive sprints, which the middle and long distance events, No differences there then? lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 8/2/2007 2:38:00 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 3:15:35 AM

MadameDahlia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The genetic differences that make some people appear different from one another are extremely superficial; it's akin to finding a needle in a galaxy. It's a travesty of science to say there are human races. Human beings are human: there's one race for you.

PS: oh, and I don't go to dog shows: dogs aren't a race of animal I wish to get close to. Cats, on the other hand, I don't mind so much.

Those types of genetic differences are called Mendelian traits.

The genetic material responsible for Mendelian traits (blood type, hitch-hiker's thumb or not, dimples or none, freckles or none, cleft chin or not, six fingers or not, albinism, straight or curly hair and most other visible differences) only account for a very, very small percentage of our genetic make-up.

Mendelian traits are products of evolution. And in a lot of cases the development of these traits were either life saving or, at the very least, beneficial to longevity.

For example, people who are closer to the equator have darker skin whereas people farther away have increasingly lighter skin. There are a few types of people that don't follow that pattern, but in those cases (ex: Innuit and Amazon natives) there are other factors that people may not take into account.

The Innuit exist on large quantities of fish, thereby maximizing their Vitamin D intake. And the Amazon natives, who are lighter skinned, live under dense rainforest canopies. The amount of sunlight that actually reaches the ground is quite minimal.

Someone mentiond sickle-cell anemia. Having sickle-cell anemia (and surviving it) would mean that the person is much more resistant to the disease malaria. Those who have developed this genetic protection have done so to fulfill a biological imperative. They must survive long enough to reproduce so as to become a "biological success".

Some might argue that the mutation isn't worth being a biological success. The symptoms of this 'good' mutation include: acute attacks of abdominal and joint pain, ulcers on the legs, defective red blood cells, and severe anemia -- often leading to death. However, I'd argue that a body's basic imperatives override notions of comfort or quality of life. Evolution seems to happen, in most cases, purely as a means of giving a body enough of a chance to feed, fornicate and reproduce. With the rare exception of being chomped by a radioactive spider, of course.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 3:46:36 AM

Lordandmaster

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Yes, just one little thing: it makes absolutely no genetic sense. Whatever populations "Hispanic" and "Asian" are supposed to refer to, they're more diverse than you can imagine. "Hispanic" includes people whose ancestors came from Europe, the Middle East, Africa, South America, and North America. "Asian," well, that's just ridiculous. There are nearly four billion Asians. Any category that includes both Koreans and Tamils is pretty useless. Hell, come to think of it, there are Hispanic Asians! Ever heard of the Philippines?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You know, when you say things like "Hispanic" and "Asian" are races, it might explain why you feel that people jump on you whenever you express your opinion.

How about "Funny-looking"...is that a race?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster

Actually I don't feel that this is a friendly thread or that my views are welcome. Seeing as how every time someone says anything that is contrary to your opinion they are immediately jumped on.

Raical System, A system being a method of sorting data and Racial being the data that is being sorted. The simple and commonly used black, white, hispanic, asian, mixed....whatever else you want to throw in there. As I was saying....just a little simpler than trying to name off the latin sub-species names. Good enough of a definition?

Something unusual about his recognition of the common system?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 4:01:58 AM

seeksfemslave

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Since Evolution has poked its head around the door I want to say that last night, this is literally true, I saw a Rabbit scurrying away as I came home. The reason I saw it was the white patch on its tail, Had I have been a Fox I would have killed the Rabbit and ate it.!
That phsyical trait didn't help much did it?

By the way you can survive and breed after having contracted malaria NO?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 4:11:22 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Yes LadyE and notice which types win the explosive sprints, which the middle and long distance events, No differences there then? lol

I think you maybe totally missed the message I was trying to convey, although I'll admit, it was quite obscure even for me - though nowhere near the quality of even the most average Ronism.

E

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 5:11:50 AM

MadameDahlia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Since Evolution has poked its head around the door I want to say that last night, this is literally true, I saw a Rabbit scurrying away as I came home. The reason I saw it was the white patch on its tail, Had I have been a Fox I would have killed the Rabbit and ate it.!
That phsyical trait didn't help much did it?

By the way you can survive and breed after having contracted malaria NO?

There are traits that are sometimes passed on that do an organism no good in terms of immediate survival.

For example, albino creatures most often have to adapt to new ways or end up dying off.

In a documentary I watched recently an albino crocodile had to learn to sneak up on his prey, rather than float slowly toward the bank of the river as others of a darker color were inclined to do. He would submerge himself, only rising out of the water to snap when in close proximity to his intended meal. Later on he was even shown attracting the eye of a female. He, though unfortunate in coloration for his surroundings, was a success. Life gave him lemons, but he adapted and had plenty of lemonade.

Another albino creature covered in the documentary was not as lucky. An albino chimpanzee caught the eye of a leopard. Though the leopard was not successful, in the confusion the albino chimpanzee went one way, while his mother went another. He died as a result of a fall from a tree.

In other cases success rates determined by evolution can be more easily recognized. During the industrial age in Germany, factories were expelling enough soot to turn the trunks of surrounding trees black. There were black and white speckled moths living in this forest. The lighter colored moths were eaten by birds and other predators. The darker colored moths had a much higher survival rate. They were able to pass on their genetic material, causing a change in the percentage of the native population's genetics.

As for surviving malaria and breeding... In 1742 the Swedish botanist Linnaeus renamed a tree in honor of the Countess of Chinchon, wife of the Viceroy of Peru. She is reputed to be the first European to use an extract of bark (from the renamed tree) to cure her of malaria.

The Chinchon Tree is native to South America.

Sickle-cell anemia is most prevalent among people who are African, African American, Mediterranean (Italian or Greek), Middle Eastern, East Indian, Caribbean, and Central or South American. In the US, 1 of every 12 African-American newborns carries the sickle cell trait in his or her genes. About 1 of every 400 newborns has the disease. - http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/aha_sicklean_crs.htm

With that in mind, it makes sense that studies seem to reflect that Africans and African Americans have a much higher chance of being born with sickle-cell anemia, or being born as a carrier. With the tree native to, and only growing in South America, people in other places plagued with malaria needed to develop an alternative means of surviving the disease. For nearly three hundred years quinine (the extract/cure) was the only fix for malaria. And in days gone by it had to be shipped, at a great financial cost, from South America.

"Each year, between 300 and 500 million people - one in 20 of the global population - contracts the disease worldwide. About a million, mostly African children, die from it." - http://www.chemsoc.org/chembytes/ezine/2001/ball_oct01.htm

So yes, there is life, lust and child birthing after malaria. But to get that far you need to have a cure or innate protection against it to begin with.

< Message edited by MadameDahlia -- 8/2/2007 5:17:59 AM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 5:31:20 AM

mnottertail

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There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity.

Then how do you account for the famous movie line;

'Run Forrest!!!! Run!!!!' ?

Curiously,
Sam Goldwyn

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 5:31:53 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Yes LadyE and notice which types win the explosive sprints, which the middle and long distance events, No differences there then? lol

I think you maybe totally missed the message I was trying to convey, although I'll admit, it was quite obscure even for me - though nowhere near the quality of even the most average Ronism.

E

No I didnt, hot pants, I just picked up the "relevent to my attitude to this thread interpretation" thassal lol

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 5:40:55 AM

seeksfemslave

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MadameDahlia:
Hey Ho here we go, the same old red herrings used to verify the truth of Natural Selection.
Since this is not an NS thread I will simply say that an Albino croc. is still a croc. likewise with a different pigmented moths, they are still... err err err... think now....MOTHS
If you know how new species emerge let me know , in a new thread. lol
Nobody else does!

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 5:57:48 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Perhaps it's a question of belief (how tedious...).

Because of the Human Genome project and other research, I don't believe there are 'races' within humanity. Please, prove to me that there are.

So anthropology is no longer a science now?

Odd, someone forgot to alert the dictionaries.

RACE:
"people of common descent," c.1500, from M.Fr. razza "race, breed, lineage," possibly from It. razza, of unknown origin (cf. Sp., Port. raza). Original senses in Eng. included "wines with characteristic flavor" (1520), "group of people with common occupation" (c.1500), and "generation" (c.1560). Meaning "tribe, nation, or people regarded as of common stock" is from c.1600. Modern meaning of "one of the great divisions of mankind based on physical peculiarities" is from 1774 (though even among anthropologists there never has been an accepted classification of these). Klein suggests these derive from Arabic ra's "head, beginning, origin" (cf. Heb. rosh). O.E. þeode meant both "race" and "language;" as a verb, geþeodan, it meant "to unite, to join." Racial is first attested 1862. Race-riot attested from 1890.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=race&searchmode=none

RACE:
–noun

1.
a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

2.
a population so related.

3.
Anthropology.

a.
any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.

b.
an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c.
a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4.
a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.

5.
any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

6.
the human race or family; humankind: Nuclear weapons pose a threat to the race.

7.
Zoology. a variety; subspecies.

8.
a natural kind of living creature: the race of fishes.

9.
any group, class, or kind, esp. of persons: Journalists are an interesting race.

10.
the characteristic taste or flavor of wine. –adjective

11.
of or pertaining to the races of humankind.

[Origin: 1490–1500; < F < It razza, of obscure orig.