RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 6:04:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

MadameDahlia:
Hey Ho here we go, the same old red herrings used to verify the truth of Natural Selection.
Since this is not an NS thread I will simply say that an Albino croc. is still a croc. likewise with a different pigmented moths, they are still... err err err... think now....MOTHS
If you know how new species emerge let me know , in a new thread. lol
Nobody else does!

You asked in post #73 whether or not the physical trait of having a white patch on its tail was somehow beneficial to the rabbit you had seen.

I explained that sometimes you luck out. Sometimes your coloration does not fit your surroundings. However, given time (as in the example of the moths), the chances of a particular species developing or keeping beneficial coloration to suit their surroundings rises.

You then asked whether or not it was possible to survive and breed after contracting malaria. I provided information on why it might be necessary for a genetic mutation to occur so that one's chances of contracting the disease are decreased.

Had you asked about the emergence of new species I might have seen fit to tackle that inquiry as well. However, I cannot read minds, most unfortunately. I was therefore unaware of your deep interest in finding new life.

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(in reply to seeksfemslave)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 7:30:44 AM

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Here's a fascinating article by Dr. C. Loring Brace, who researches anthropology at the University of Michigan:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/brace.html

He concludes it with this:

quote:

The role played by America is particularly important in generating and perpetuating the concept of "race." The human inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere largely derive from three very separate regions of the world—Northeast Asia, Northwest Europe, and Western Africa—and none of them has been in the New World long enough to have been shaped by their experiences in the manner of those long-term residents in the various separate regions of the Old World.

It was the American experience of those three separate population components facing one another on a daily basis under conditions of manifest and enforced inequality that created the concept in the first place and endowed it with the assumption that those perceived "races" had very different sets of capabilities. Those thoughts are very influential and have become enshrined in laws and regulations. This is why I can conclude that, while the word "race" has no coherent biological meaning, its continued grip on the public mind is in fact a manifestation of the power of the historical continuity of the American social structure, which is assumed by all to be essentially "correct."

Finally, because of America's enormous influence on the international scene, ideas generated by the idiosyncrasies of American history have gained currency in ways that transcend American intent or control. One of those ideas is the concept of "race," which we have exported to the rest of the world without any realization that this is what we were doing. The adoption of the biologically indefensible American concept of "race" by an admiring world has to be the ultimate manifestation of political correctness.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 7:34:26 AM

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I actually woke up thinking about this, which basically means I need a life.

Ok...I am not very scientific-minded but can certainly understand how nationalities become "diluted" over the years and we all end up being basically 'mixed' to SOME extent, but not to enough of an extent that we all look the same....at least not yet. Frankly I dont think we ever will, but I understand the concept that kittin is talking about, but I think it's unreasonable to think that we don't notice color or use it to identify.

Going by the dictionary, (which may not be the best idea) there are certain 'races' amongst humans, but maybe a better or a more pc term should replace the word "race". There are afterall, VERY distinct physical features that differentiate say...a 'person of african descent' from a person of 'asian descent' from a person of "mideastern descent" etc etc.. And of course these features are noticeable.

I'm a "palie" but maybe somewhere along the line one of my mediterarean ancestors procreated with a 'darkie'. From a spiritual point of view, I like to think of us as all one people-- and this part of me agrees with kittin completely.... And this is why it has always sat wrong with me when I hear african americans say that the slaves were "their people" and that "their people" suffered. Wrong. They are my people too, because we are all of the human race. (tho im probably guilty of using the term "my people" when refering to americans or italians etc)

Either way, I dont think anyone can deny that there are certain physical features and skin colors that are very distinctly different from others. It's hard to believe that there are any completely "pure breeds", but even a 'mixed' person carries certian physical features that point to their original roots. And I think those things should be noticed, embraced and even used as "identifiers" when it's helpful. I don't think we should pretend different colors and features don't exist, but maybe we need to find a word for it, other than 'race'.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 7:53:24 AM

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And hence my original post: 'race' is a social and historical construct with no scientific ground. People confuse Mendelian characteristics with 'race'. And it's just incorrect.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 8:47:34 AM

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And this argument is just as useful as the one about the difference that the general public calls a kilobyte 1000 bytes, when truly computer-literate people know that it is actually 1024. I'd like to see everyone educated on this clear-cut subject, but I guess I'll just have to accept (with a sweeping generalization) that it's unimportant to most of the population.

Personally, I will continue to use the word "race" in the same manner as those around me. If one day a tipping point is reached and we are all just one race, then the etymology of the word will reflect that change and I will have to change my definition to be clearly understood. Until then, I will continue to worry about more important things....like whether or not I should wear a blue shirt or a green one to work tomorrow *smiles*.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 9:15:13 AM

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Glad you shared this crucial piece of information with us.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 9:29:04 AM

RCdc

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I think the whole 'race' issue gets confused by the terms placed around - you have 'race relations' - you have 'racial discrimination' and then you have the term 'human race'.

I personally think that is where the whole shitncaboodle comes in. You can't have 'human race' and then go on to define that into different 'races' because that just becomes a subset of a subset that is mislabelled (I am probably talking blahblah here )

But race is defined as a genetically distinguished group of people - but that doesn't just stop at ethnic background, that could mean all dyslexics grouped together, or all those people that can roll their tongues to form an 'o'. (Which I can't do so that makes me genetically deficient)

Peace
the.dark.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 9:39:15 AM

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as far as the word racism is concerned i lean in your direction. i was always an advocate of the use of the word "culturalism" in its place.

i feel most people confuse the method of identification with the specifics of an issue.

So we kinda agree as far as no such thing as racism.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 9:47:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

And hence my original post: 'race' is a social and historical construct with no scientific ground. People confuse Mendelian characteristics with 'race'. And it's just incorrect.

You quote an article from an anthropologist pointing out that race is not a useful concept only in the discipline of biology, and then don't even bother to read your own reference?
And you continue to ignore every factual reference pointing out your blatant error, and the logical howlers that you employ to promote a stance rooted in ignorance?

Now lets address which subspecies of troll your posts belong to.

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 10:02:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

And this argument is just as useful as the one about the difference that the general public calls a kilobyte 1000 bytes, when truly computer-literate people know that it is actually 1024. I'd like to see everyone educated on this clear-cut subject, but I guess I'll just have to accept (with a sweeping generalization) that it's unimportant to most of the population.

Personally, I will continue to use the word "race" in the same manner as those around me. If one day a tipping point is reached and we are all just one race, then the etymology of the word will reflect that change and I will have to change my definition to be clearly understood. Until then, I will continue to worry about more important things....like whether or not I should wear a blue shirt or a green one to work tomorrow *smiles*.

Geez...Common sense on an internet forum...whodathunkit?

(in reply to QuietlySeeking)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 10:55:31 AM

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Why couldn't an anthropologist make an argument in the field of biology? Just as physicists sometimes touch on the subject of metaphysics and philosophy... pick your own combination. Knowledge is a pool: dive in. Talk about trolling

...

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 11:06:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

CL opines - "Because using "race" by the dictionary-provided definition to describe different groups of human beings is "abuse"? What are you doing to do, call the police and report me for beating the word? Does it cry?"

How am I supposed to take such twisted prose seriously? As if I said anything close to this.

Oh, no, no. I thought I explained that. That part was a bit of humor to break the monotony of dealing with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

The map is not the territory and the word is not the thing. The point is that the word race, as it is defined in most dictionaries and as it is used casually, reflects bad science. It may be useful or convenient, even poetic, but the categories are too broad, shifting and nebulous to be more than that.

A map isn't the territory- it's the symbol of it. The word "race" is a symbol for what it refers to. Now, are you trying to point out that the word I'm using to refer to the thing I'm talking about isn't, outside of English, that thing, and therefore doesn't exist? Or are you trying to argue that, because it's not a very concrete concept that you can wrap your paw around, that it isn't real?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

We are each of us different. Are we each a race?

Do we all live in different areas? Or do neighbors live in the same area?

Same deal. You have to define "race". But if you define "area" as "on Earth or orbitting it", and thusly say, "everyone lives in the same place", that does not invalidate someone else's point that he and another individual live in different areas, when he defines areas as different countries, or another's point, who defines areas as different sides of town.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

We are all the same species. Is that our race?

If you define "race" in the same or appropriately even more looser terms as "species". If you use it more specifically? No. No, it doesn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

How many people make a race?

A race would typically defined in terms of herritage, genetic similarity, or some combination of partials.

Sort of like a species. If there was only one human in the world, would you group it in with monkeys?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

How much territory does a race inhabit?

See above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

How similar do we have to be to be a race?

Definition of speaker would determine this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

How different can we be before we are not of the same race?

Context of speaker.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

If I think two people belong to the same race but they disagree, who is right? Etc. etc.

If they disagree on which definition to adopt? They're idiots. Having the same problem a number on this thread have- being unable to realize that it's not set in stone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

These are all points that have been raised in one way or other so far and all points you have avoided in favour of rather bland sentiments.

I never realized you had such silly question. I assure you, these are easy to answer.

As for "bland sentiments"? You're trying to memorize this stuff instead of knowing how to use it in practical thought.

To draw analogy.. you're asking me how does a hammer work. I'm telling you to hit the butt of a nail in the spot you want it to go in at. You're calling my terminology bland, since I'm not telling you how hard to hit it, at what angle, or where at in the wall. Part of the reason I'm not telling you is that there's more variables than you seem to realize- you don't have to put nails in at specifically predetermined points in the wall (such as you don't have to have a race be such a predetermined definition). Another part is that there are obvious points I rather expect you to realize.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

How about you get down to brass tacks yourself. Let's have a little of your science on the topic.

Science? Ah, okay. There's this genetic marker. It's on everything. Humans, dogs, birds, trees, water, automobiles, TV's, computers, etc.- that tells you waht type of thing it is. Robots have it, too. (Hence, RNA.)

(in reply to Zensee)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 11:22:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Yes LadyE and notice which types win the explosive sprints, which the middle and long distance events, No differences there then? lol

I think you maybe totally missed the message I was trying to convey, although I'll admit, it was quite obscure even for me - though nowhere near the quality of even the most average Ronism.

E

LadyEllen:
The subtlety of your wit has not been missed.
While Ron may be the 427 Cobra of wit (unbridled power) you will forever be the Alpha Romeo of wit (sleek, subtle and poised)
thompson

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 11:31:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yes, just one little thing: it makes absolutely no genetic sense.

Yeah. It's not like skin pigmentation, among other characteristics, are hereditary or anything. "absoluty no genetic".. nice.

My friend, excuse me if I'm blunt here: one may not be thinking intelligently if he doesn't think some races have some genetic characteristics that cause them to be visually identifiable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Whatever populations "Hispanic" and "Asian" are supposed to refer to, they're more diverse than you can imagine.

It's rather obvious they're diverse. It just doesn't mitigate that they have things in common with eachother but not with others.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

"Hispanic" includes people whose ancestors came from Europe, the Middle East, Africa, South America, and North America. "Asian," well, that's just ridiculous. There are nearly four billion Asians. Any category that includes both Koreans and Tamils is pretty useless. Hell, come to think of it, there are Hispanic Asians!

And you'd like to say that they're all an even share of the same genes? Or are you basing your argument in that their groups do have many of the same component genes?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 11:43:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

MadameDahlia:
Hey Ho here we go, the same old red herrings used to verify the truth of Natural Selection.
Since this is not an NS thread I will simply say that an Albino croc. is still a croc. likewise with a different pigmented moths, they are still... err err err... think now....MOTHS
If you know how new species emerge let me know , in a new thread. lol
Nobody else does!

One of the old chestnuts of the creationist lies factory.

First species isn't all that precise a term. The most common definition is of a population that for whatever reason only breeds successfully with other members of that population. However that definition gets awfully fuzzy when applied to the real world. Take for instance the classic hybrid animal, the mule, since the offspring of a mating between a donkey and a horse is sterile it is a dead end and therefore donkeys and horses are different species, right? But what about those rare fertile mules? Does that make horses and donkeys the same species or what? The same applies to many closely related animals, the big cats and wolves for instance, and to plants that are even all that closely related.

So what makes a new species? Obviously any time an individual or group becomes reprodcutively isolated from its parent population that is a new species. That it may still closely resemble its parent species visually is immaterial if the two populations no longer breed successfully. A fairly common example in plants is speciation by polyploidy. That is the new population has 3 or more sets of chromosomes than the usual 2. Virtually all food crops are polyploid and do not interbreed well if at all with their wild ancestors. We can fairly reiably cause this sort of speciation by treating plant sex cells with colchicine. Obviously polyploidy is not the only means of evolving a species but it does have the benefit to humans of happening in a single generation much to the chagrin of the leaders of the creationist movement.

As for animals polyploidy is fairly rare except in parthogenetic species. However we see new species of animals emerge as well as being able to observe the splitting of species that we can observe in the wild. Take the Timber Wolf and the Coyote. behaviourly and visually these animals are very different but geetically they are completely interfertile. Although it should be kept in mind that females of both species will not willingly mate with males of the other species. However genetic studies show that there has been a small amout of genetic flow between the two populations since they split. This appears to be a fairly obvious example of a population caught in the middle of becoming seperate populations and therefore seperate species. Again perfectly accewptable to science and very disconcerting to the liars who lead the creationist movement.

For more see:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 11:48:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Why couldn't an anthropologist make an argument in the field of biology? Just as physicists sometimes touch on the subject of metaphysics and philosophy... pick your own combination. Knowledge is a pool: dive in. Talk about trolling ...

Nice tapdance... Adding a strawman to the mix doesn't make you look right, it makes you look desperate.

As repeatedly pointed out, your premise is correct inside the parameters of biological and genetic definitons.

Yet you persist in treating it as the universal definition, even though there are scientific and academic disciplines where the term clearly has a well established usage.

Are you afraid to address the fact that there are indeed separate races within the human species in anthropology, sociology, law, et al?

Or are you just going to continue to play the ignorance card?

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 11:59:42 AM

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I decide to apply a biological definition to other fields (anthropology, history and such) because it is logical and right to do so. If you persist on using outdated notions, it's your problem, it's your life, and hey, I'm not fighting over it.

I don't find brutality attractive, so until you've regained your composure and decided to act in a civil manner, I shall pretend I can't see you.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 12:38:08 PM

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This is a quick response and not directed at anyone in particular.
If we look at the taxonomic scale:
Man, for example, is classified using the following names..
Kingdom - Animalia
Phylum - Chordata
Class - Mammalia
Order - Primates
Families - Hominoidea
Genus - Homo
Species - sapiens

The race of mankind is Homo Sapiens....all variation there of is a mater of ethnicity. There are Africans who are black and have straight hair, high cheek bones and aquiline noses. There are also Africans who have curly hair, flat noses and thick lips. If these are negroid markers then would not a white person with straight hair, aquiline nose, high cheek bones and thin lips also be classified as negroid...so also a white person with curly hair, flat nose and thick lips be classified as negroid?
As was pointed out in post #82 the use of the word race is a construct of culture and has no real meaning. How does one go about defining Caucasoid, negroid or mongoloid...the overlaps are so extensive as to make it futile.
Alumbrado has pointed out the extensive variation in dictionary definitions to include everything from nationality, language and culture to wine. It would seem much simpler to accept the human race as the only race and to further differentiate it in terms of ethnicity, phenotype and genotype.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 8/2/2007 12:46:32 PM >

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 12:39:36 PM

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~very Fast Reply after only reading the OP~

kittin, I appreciate why you say this but it simply isn't true. Trying to make everyone the same negates pride in heritage, lineage, and background. I have a darling Lakota friend who absolutely detests attempts to make him into anything he is not, saying that trying to make him assimilate into the "we are all the same" mentality is extremely prejudicial. We are not all the same. He loves who he is and where he came from. His skin is red. His heritage is "Ind'in" as he calls it, and that is who he wants to be.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 12:54:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

~very Fast Reply after only reading the OP~

kittin, I appreciate why you say this but it simply isn't true. Trying to make everyone the same negates pride in heritage, lineage, and background. I have a darling Lakota friend who absolutely detests attempts to make him into anything he is not, saying that trying to make him assimilate into the "we are all the same" mentality is extremely prejudicial. We are not all the same. He loves who he is and where he came from. His skin is red. His heritage is "Ind'in" as he calls it, and that is who he wants to be.

slavish:
Saying that we are all one race does not negate any ethnic differences. Being the same race does not make men and women the same sex how would being the same race make the Lakota the same as the Navajo or the Cheyenne or the Irish?
We are all part of the human race was, I believe, the thrust of the OP.
thompson

(in reply to slaveish)

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