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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 2:07:26 PM   
HydroMaster


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Ah,  I see the semantics and sniping have picked up even further since I left.  Going to go now...I have no desire to argue semantics again.  I guess I'm an anti-semantic then.  I have decided that left handers should be  a race so we can get into some of those nice benefits from the government for being a minority.  Plus when we take over the world we can call it a race war just for kicks.  Have fun guys.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 2:13:58 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Races certainly do exist.  Though they may become more entwined now.  And there is scientific basis for it... very commonly known ones, too..

Still, who cares?  We don't all have to be one race to get along.

There is more genetic variability within a "race", than there is between "races".


Would you mind citing a source of this opinion?  More out of curiousity than necessity.

Even if it's true, races still do exist.  I do not feel ignoring this truth is a healthy approach to countering racism.


Just one listed here, since it's most recent to me:  Mutants: On Genetic Variety and the Human Body, Armand Marie Leroi, Penguin Books, 2003, pp 337-338. Rather than typing the whole page or so, here are some points:

"Racial boundaries are usually held to be sharp; gene variant frequency changes are generally smooth.  Changes in variant frequencies are also inconsisitent between one gene and another.  If there are [racial] lines to be drawn through humanity, most genes simply don't show where they should go."

and:

"The second discovery that caused, and causes, geneticists to doubt the existence of races is the ubiquity of genetic variation within even the smallest populations.  About 85 percent of the global stock of genetic variation can be found within any country or population - Cambodians or Nigerians, say.  About another 8 percent distinguish nations from each other - the Dutch from the Spanish - which leaves only a paltry 7 percent or so to account for differences between continents or, in the most generous interpretation of the term, 'races'.  To be sure, there are genetic differences between a Dutchman and a Dinka, but not many more than between any two natives of Delft."

Folks used to beilieve you could tell personality and moral character by the shape of your skull.  Maybe we should toss the idea of genetically pure races, too.

thornhappy

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 2:15:12 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Unless, of course, you feel that one with a deep ancestry tracing itself back to Africia isn't more likely to carry a predisposition for darker skin pigmentation than one tracing his deep ancestry back to, say, Ireland.




It began in Africa.

http://www.nature.com/nature/ancestor/index.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article2782518.ece

and here's something for all levels:

http://eureka.povlab.org/fiche.php?qid=130

Obviously, c'est le probleme de tous de rester informe. L'ignorance est deliberee, dans la plupart des cas.

Folks from southern India, and some South Pacific Islanders also have quite dark skin.

thornhappy


< Message edited by thornhappy -- 8/2/2007 2:22:31 PM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 2:20:17 PM   
HydroMaster


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Hmm, after reading my posts I'd like to withdraw half of my statements as a product of insomnia.  But you guys decide which half and give me the outline when you're finished disecting them, thanks.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 3:15:58 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Races certainly do exist.  Though they may become more entwined now.  And there is scientific basis for it... very commonly known ones, too..

Still, who cares?  We don't all have to be one race to get along.


Of course, since we all had shared a toast at the great DNA cocktail all these years ago, it's within us to all get along.


I think it's because people like to be seen as somewhat special and unique.  If you homoginize it, no one will be deified or demonized and we would HAVE to depend on the content of our character.  (ooo scary thought- no excuses)

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 3:52:53 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
MadameDahlia:
Hey Ho here we go, the same old red herrings used to verify the truth of Natural Selection. Since this is not an NS thread I will simply say that an Albino croc. is still a croc. etc etc

One of the old chestnuts of the creationist lies factory.
First species isn't all that precise a term.

It should be to Natural Selectioners because they believe they know how different species originated

quote:

DomKen
The most common definition is of a population that for whatever reason only breeds successfully with other members of that population.

I believe , though do not know, that this definition only came about when Natural Selectioners began to realise that their theories led nowhere but back up their polyploidal orifices.

In earlier less sophisticated times many people realised that a gnat was a different species to an elephant and set about clarifying the taxonomy of speciation ie lets find a systematic organisation of the brutes..
Then along came Natural Selectioners with a very simplistic theory that claimed to explain the origin of such species. When it became apparent that their methods simply didnt work and the available fossil record did not support their theory they took refuge in ever more obscure , not to say obtuse definitions of and origins of speciation.

Thus we have polyploidy,a chromosomal abnormality in an existing species.
They even discovered punctuated equilibrium by which species A gets isolated from the main body of its community and magically turns into species B when everybody knows that they would just go on churning out more happy baby species A. NO?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 3:53:03 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Just one listed here, since it's most recent to me:  Mutants: On Genetic Variety and the Human Body, Armand Marie Leroi, Penguin Books, 2003, pp 337-338. Rather than typing the whole page or so, here are some points:

"Racial boundaries are usually held to be sharp; gene variant frequency changes are generally smooth.  Changes in variant frequencies are also inconsisitent between one gene and another.  If there are [racial] lines to be drawn through humanity, most genes simply don't show where they should go."

and:

"The second discovery that caused, and causes, geneticists to doubt the existence of races is the ubiquity of genetic variation within even the smallest populations.  About 85 percent of the global stock of genetic variation can be found within any country or population - Cambodians or Nigerians, say.  About another 8 percent distinguish nations from each other - the Dutch from the Spanish - which leaves only a paltry 7 percent or so to account for differences between continents or, in the most generous interpretation of the term, 'races'.  To be sure, there are genetic differences between a Dutchman and a Dinka, but not many more than between any two natives of Delft."


This does sound like something I'd agree with..  It isn't saying that there aren't races, but both that races do overlap and that the average variation within a race can be greater than the variation of the average between two different races.

It's a good point to be made.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Folks used to beilieve you could tell personality and moral character by the shape of your skull.  Maybe we should toss the idea of genetically pure races, too.


Yeah.  For the sake of this thread, we can pretty much assume such an idea to be obsolete.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 4:14:19 PM   
Lordandmaster


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The fact that it's unimportant to most of the population doesn't mean it's unimportant.

And understanding what's wrong with the ordinary person's conception of race is not comparable to understanding that a kilobyte is 1024 bytes.  If you think a kilobyte is 1000 bytes, sure, you'll be wrong, but you can quantify exactly how wrong you'll be: 2.4%.  If you think races can be determined by looking at someone and asking yourself what other human beings in your experience this new person looks like (which is basically all we do when we divide humans into races), then you're preventing yourself from understanding how humans evolved and why we have the genetic diversity that we have.  It's really just a way of allowing yourself not to understand humanity.  And that kind of error can't be quantified.

By the way, this happens to be a raging issue in medicine right now.  There is a new movement to tailor prescription drugs for specific races, on the argument that certain medicines may work better or worse for black patients.  The obvious problem: How exactly do you determine who is black in a medically significant sense?  You can read about it here:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=B0FEC94D-E7F2-99DF-3CD8F25918B63A39

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

And this argument is just as useful as the one about the difference that the general public calls a kilobyte 1000 bytes, when truly computer-literate people know that it is actually 1024.  I'd like to see everyone educated on this clear-cut subject, but I guess I'll just have to accept (with a sweeping generalization) that it's unimportant to most of the population.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 5:49:49 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We are all part of the human race was, I believe, the thrust of the OP.
thompson



That, and the concept of 'races' are obsolete. Our DNA's a pandora box of tricks. I repeat: I may have more common genetic markers with a complete stranger born on the other side of the globe than with my own brother. Which begs the question: whose 'race' do I share? What one can 'see' is not necessarily what 'is'.

Humanity's a stew. The recipe's universal, and the basic ingredients are all the same worldwide. I'm finding it hard to understand why so many people out there cling on to this outdated notion that 'races' exist. I suspect they're attached to an understandable need to 'belong' to a group.

But that's worth of another thread altogether.



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 5:59:27 PM   
CuriousLord


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They're recognized in the same manner that currents in an ocean are.
-They're there.
-They're real.
-They do effect things.
-They're not pure.
-They share a hell of a lot in common.
-They're still distinguishable in many cases.

The ocean's a stew, too.

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 6:03:43 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We are all part of the human race was, I believe, the thrust of the OP.
thompson



That, and the concept of 'races' are obsolete. Our DNA's a pandora box of tricks. I repeat: I may have more common genetic markers with a complete stranger born on the other side of the globe than with my own brother. Which begs the question: whose 'race' do I share? What one can 'see' is not necessarily what 'is'.

Humanity's a stew. The recipe's universal, and the basic ingredients are all the same worldwide. I'm finding it hard to understand why so many people out there cling on to this outdated notion that 'races' exist. I suspect they're attached to an understandable need to 'belong' to a group.
In an effort to hijack your thread just how would belonging to a group differ from belonging to a gang?



But that's worth of another thread altogether.



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 6:22:39 PM   
kittinSol


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Just admit you simply 'believe' in them and be done and over with it. Would save us all a lot of E.



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 6:24:18 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We are all part of the human race was, I believe, the thrust of the OP.
thompson



That, and the concept of 'races' are obsolete. Our DNA's a pandora box of tricks. I repeat: I may have more common genetic markers with a complete stranger born on the other side of the globe than with my own brother. Which begs the question: whose 'race' do I share? What one can 'see' is not necessarily what 'is'.

Humanity's a stew. The recipe's universal, and the basic ingredients are all the same worldwide. I'm finding it hard to understand why so many people out there cling on to this outdated notion that 'races' exist. I suspect they're attached to an understandable need to 'belong' to a group.
In an effort to hijack your thread just how would belonging to a group differ from belonging to a gang?



But that's worth of another thread altogether.





A priori, a group's honourable, a gang isn't; a posteriori, I never ever attempted to belong to either :-)

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 6:28:06 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Just admit you simply 'believe' in them and be done and over with it. Would save us all a lot of E.



You're really without a concern for what's actually true, so long as you can pester, eh?

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 6:40:01 PM   
kittinSol


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Good gawd, and I thought you didn't like useless posting.

It shows that playfulness can be found in the most unexpected of places  !

PS: because I don't agree with your beliefs doesn't mean I am wrong. So far, you have only spoken of your beliefs, and not an iota of proof has come out of your posts on the original subject. But you're aware of that, aren't you?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/2/2007 6:41:51 PM >


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 6:55:15 PM   
CuriousLord


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It can be difficult to distinguish when one is being trying to be silly when they're normally silly, regardless of the presense or absense of intention.  Perhaps I'll be more receptive another time- tonight's a busy one.
 
Yeah, it's true these are largely just my beliefs.  Then again, this is more of a "the Earth is round" than a "aliens exist" belief.  So while it's true it is still a belief..

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 7:10:02 PM   
slaveish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Saying that we are all one race does not negate any ethnic differences.  Being the same race does not make men and women the same sex how would being the same race make the Lakota the same as the Navajo or the Cheyenne or the Irish?


This is such a weird couple of sentences that they're sort of interesting.

"Being the same race does not make men and women the same sex."

Well ... uh ... no. It sure doesn't. No argument there.

"How would being the same race make the Lakota the same as the Navajo or the Cheyenne or the Irish?"

It doesn't. They are different, which is the gist of what I was saying.

They are not the same. They are different people. They are physically different. They do not look the same. My friend detests the phrase "Native American" because he is Lakota, not Navajo, not Cheyenne. His point is that trying to assimilate him in some homogenic mess, with other "Native Americans" or Americans, or humans, or whatever, saying that he is the same as all the rest of everybody, is simply not true and is extremely (to him) annoying. (We have had hours of heated conversation about it.) Ignoring who he is and what he is negates his history, his family's history, his customs and his beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We are all part of the human race was, I believe, the thrust of the OP.
thompson



Saying that race (other than the ~gag~ human race) is a banal and useless marker of self-identification is hogwash. It is like saying "I do not like that you are different, so we are all going to be one big gelantinous DNA mess with no identifiable heritage." This pc bullshit drives me batty.

Should race matter to anyone? I can't answer that - it doesn't to me but it's a really big deal for some people, both because of pride in their own heritage and because of unfortuante prejudice. Reality is that different races ~exist~ whether or not some anthropologist writes a paper about it, and races exist whether or not some people choose to pretend they don't.



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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 7:22:04 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

They are physically different. They do not look the same.



Quite a few posts addressed this: why not go back and check it out for yourself? Do some research, even: 'looks' are in no way an indication of anything else than very superficial traits, and certainly they're not representive of anything 'racial'.

quote:



This pc bullshit drives me batty.



If you think seeking the truth versus the generally acknowledged consensus is 'pc bullshit' there's nothing to argue about, is there? It's bullshit, so turn the page and go 'next'.

As to why it should drive you 'batty', I think only you can answer this.


< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/2/2007 7:49:44 PM >


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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 7:26:37 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

We are all part of the human race was, I believe, the thrust of the OP.
thompson



That, and the concept of 'races' are obsolete. Our DNA's a pandora box of tricks. I repeat: I may have more common genetic markers with a complete stranger born on the other side of the globe than with my own brother. Which begs the question: whose 'race' do I share? What one can 'see' is not necessarily what 'is'.

Humanity's a stew. The recipe's universal, and the basic ingredients are all the same worldwide. I'm finding it hard to understand why so many people out there cling on to this outdated notion that 'races' exist. I suspect they're attached to an understandable need to 'belong' to a group.
In an effort to hijack your thread just how would belonging to a group differ from belonging to a gang?



But that's worth of another thread altogether.





A priori, a group's honourable, a gang isn't; a posteriori, I never ever attempted to belong to either :-)


kittinSol:
Spanky, Alfalfa,Buckwheat and Darla are part of a gang "our gang" Nathan Forrest, Tom Metzger and David Duke were part of a Group of thugs called the Klu Klux Klan
Yeah I know I am an asshole...but I am a fun asshole
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 8/2/2007 7:33:34 PM >

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RE: There isn't such a thing as 'races' in humanity. - 8/2/2007 9:53:30 PM   
lucern


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I'm studying to be a sociocultural anthropologist (and you might say I'm approaching the end-game).  I say this not for some cheap authority; I say it because anthropologists and scientific racism went hand in hand, and the product of some of their work shaped the very debate we're having.  Anthropologists, particularly physical anthropologists, are being echoed in the initial claim, that race doesn't exist.  Yet there is a distortion in this echo.  Plus, the link in the initial post isn't helpful: I find little wrong, per se, but it's incomplete, outdated, and not trying very hard to actually let anyone learn anything.  It's intellectual butchery, with old meat. 

Here's the claim I would make, which is absolutely defensible in this discipline, from multiple angles: Race is not biologically meaningful.  This is to say, race has been constructed in a plethora of ways, and there is simply no way to parse people into racial groups, whatever features we choose.  Since some are hung up on this, and it does conflict with what many of us 'know' to be true, i'll cite The Emperor's New Clothes: Biological Theories of Race at the Millenium, by Joseph Graves Jr, which gives a thorough account of the history of scientific endeavors to assert race as biological (or 'real', after the OP) alongside simple to understand, and moreover, accurate accounts of the flaws in each.  I can summon many other sources, but this is the most accessible and thorough (and imagine that, it's not online...).

In the meanwhile, these thought exercises get a couple of points across:

1) If you were somehow able to go back in time just enough for people to be all nicely divided, yet not yet as integrated as they are today, and if you could walk from the tip of South Africa to the northernmost point of Europe, what would you see?  I'd think that you would see a skin color gradient ranging from extremely dark to extremely pale, in ways that you could probably correlate to sun exposure.  Whether or not this is strictly true, what is obvious is that there is a great variation in skin tones that do not arrive from the mixing of purely black and purely white people.  This is true of other physical features, and where one draws the line will always be arbitrary. 

2) I also noticed that people were talking about lineage, more or less.  Just realize all of the people you are directly related to biologically vs which part of your family is traceable.  There are gaping holes, I promise you, and unless you're at risk of inbreeding, these people are diverse.  There is a craze, thanks to Oprah, of African-Americans wanting to use their genetic heritage to trace where they're from in Africa.  This is problematic, and often times whatever questionable method used to trace this genetics to geography turns up results of ancestry from Holland to China.  In this one documentary, the stubborn African-American (self-identified) woman protested, paying the researchers to test other areas of whatever chromosome they were testing.until they found her a proper Cameroonian heritage when Europeans kept showing up.  The fact of the matter is that we are comprised of an astounding number of people, and it is a narrow view of kinship that produces some of the confusion about race. 

However, it's a bit short sighted to leave it at this original assertion, don'cha think?  The science is no longer debatable enough to produce all of this debate.  The elephant in the room, as I see it, is that race can (paradoxically, to some) not exist biologically and yet have a very real affect on people.  This is because race, as always, has been socially constituted and re-constituted.  We're arguing over something for which there is not a single meaning, but we have little problem doing so.  Race is 'real' because the experiences of race are real.   This can be documented and cited even more extensively. 

In an evolution seminar, we came to a similar impasse as this.  "So race isn't real, now what?", asked the geneticist and physical anthropologist.  The whitest woman you can imagine stands up quickly and says "Then they should stop using it."  She is then greeted with a verbal torrent from a medical anthropologist, of self-identified 'mixed' descent, indicating that we can't stop using it, because it's injustice, because race is still real.  These were among a flurry of incomprehensible connections, that pretty much only communicated anger.  My take is that ceasing to use it, now anyway, would play into the "I see everyone equally" lie that is so prevalent among people attempting to be politically correct without being ethically correct.  The most honest thing, given more or less agreement with the major points in this post, would be to be able to walk the complicated path of knowing that race is biologically indefensible as well as aknowledging that it has a long history and remains extremely relevant in the social lives of people.  I don't want to say that it's always negative, but I can't think of anything positive to come out of it.  Ever.

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