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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 6:33:22 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Hmmmmmm... then how did they teach those chimps sign language and when they showed them a mirror the chimps signed the word me? 



Training an organism to repeat repetitive actions is no evidence of self awareness. If you'd trained it to sign the word me after showing a picture of a donkey it would do it.


But that is not what occured. The behaviorist signed to the chimp - who is that, and then pointed in the mirror, the chimp looking at the reflection signed the sign for me. It also used the sign in simple sentences when needing something - like me eat orange. 

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Profile   Post #: 221
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 6:35:47 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apiercedkitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Bob, Stephann quite clearly stated that "A promise 'till death do we part', to me, trumps any desire for any sort of 'healthy' emotional relationship" meaning that those vows are of the utmost importance to him...unless I'm wrong on the meaning of "trump".  In other words, he is saying that he ALSO WOULD HAVE STAYED WITH HIS TERMINALLY ILL WIFE.   



Yeah - that's what i took away from the post as well... that's what my understanding of the word "trump" is... that it goes above everything else.


My disagreement with Stephan's position has to do with his effort to imply that a marriage vow is somehow entering an unhealthy emotional relationship. Even if he is limiting it strictly to the bad times, I would still disagree with that position.

To love someone through good times and bad is never unhealthy, in my opinion.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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Profile   Post #: 222
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 6:40:13 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Hmmmmmm... then how did they teach those chimps sign language and when they showed them a mirror the chimps signed the word me? 



Training an organism to repeat repetitive actions is no evidence of self awareness. If you'd trained it to sign the word me after showing a picture of a donkey it would do it.


But that is not what occured. The behaviorist signed to the chimp - who is that, and then pointed in the mirror, the chimp looking at the reflection signed the sign for me. It also used the sign in simple sentences when needing something - like me eat orange. 


Self-awareness is one of those elusive definitions that suffers from too much bias in favour of a human interpretation.

I know my dogs and cats are self-aware. They have their own personalities, moods, compassion for one another.

Dogs and cats have feelings, which to me speaks of self-awareness.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 7:23:27 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Self-awareness is one of those elusive definitions that suffers from too much bias in favour of a human interpretation.

I know my dogs and cats are self-aware. They have their own personalities, moods, compassion for one another.

Dogs and cats have feelings, which to me speaks of self-awareness.


To have  Personality and moods.. is not the same thing as being Self-Aware of those specific Personality traits and moods etc etc etc.

I know that I can become angery or that I can be very loving in my personality.  These are moods/feelings I have.  but...  it is self-awareness that allows me understand and appreciate how these moods develop and demonstrate themselves in my interactions with others.  With self-awareness of what I have.. I can be better at either minimizing or maximizing the demonstration of the moods/feelings dependent on my particular preference.

One hears  "I have a Temper"... like it is an excuse to their behavior.... they are acknowledged they have a Temper.. and they even want to control this Temper.. but it is a lack of Self-awareness of this Temper that inhibits their ability to control it.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 224
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 7:36:00 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Wikipedia:
Self-awareness is the explicit understanding that one exists. Furthermore, it includes the concept that one exists as an individual, separate from other people, with private thoughts. It may also include the understanding that other people are similarly self-aware. Self-awareness remains a critical mystery in philosophy, psychology, biology, and artificial intelligence.

Also interesting is this:

http://www.livescience.com/animals/061030_elephant_mirror.html

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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Profile   Post #: 225
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 7:56:54 PM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Wikipedia:
Self-awareness is the explicit understanding that one exists. Furthermore, it includes the concept that one exists as an individual, separate from other people, with private thoughts. It may also include the understanding that other people are similarly self-aware. Self-awareness remains a critical mystery in philosophy, psychology, biology, and artificial intelligence.

Also interesting is this:

http://www.livescience.com/animals/061030_elephant_mirror.html


Attempting to construct a model for self-awareness is a fascinating challenge.

For example, is a brain required for thinking?

How do we define "thinking"?

Are emotions a symptom of thinking?

Is selfishness/selflessness a symptom of self-awareness?

What other ways can self-awareness manifest itself?

We can use a homo-centric model to determine which forms of existence exhibit human-like self-awareness.

But beyond that all models break down, mostly because the unanswered questions leave lots of options open.

And those questions remain open because we can't detect thought, except in limited ways in humans and human-like animals (those with brains).

What is to prevent a rock from having its own form of self-awareness, or a tree, or a single-celled organism?

The further we get from the homo-centric model, the harder it is to justify exclusion without being open to accusations of homo-centric bias.

It is in part based on this principle that I find myself believing in a self-aware universe (this and the continuity of existence principle in physics).

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:01:35 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		All this raises a very intriguing question about animals and self-awareness.  If a bear shits on a squirrel...is it Scat? 

When my dog obsesses about peeing on every large rock he sees, no matter how long it takes me to walk him, does that mean he's into golden showers?


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Profile   Post #: 227
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:04:56 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		When I look into a mirror...I get a hard on...What does it all mean?

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Profile   Post #: 228
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:08:18 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		that you have a good cleaning lady, because I doubt that thing gets the funk removed by you personally, or you have a hell of an eye doctor and should stick with him.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 229
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:10:27 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Wellllllll! I am fresh out of the shower after a really awsome day. Except for trudging around a hot dusty fairgrounds looking at a bazillion ( maybe a wee bit of an exageration ) old tractors that all tend to blur together after awhile. Some old cars and weird steam engines of all sorts. Carrying around, alternately a 3 yo and a 4yo. Riding a very cool steam engine train, watching a faux wild west gunfight. Eating pizza and some fruit smoothies and sharing a bigass turkey leg. Well, I certainly cannot say it was selfless at all. Not altogether fun for me, except for the looks on the two little fellows faces and the glow I get from making them happy, but it was a wonderful day.

Soooooooo, what trouble has been brewing here?

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:14:17 PM   
Bobkgin


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Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

When my dog obsesses about peeing on every large rock he sees, no matter how long it takes me to walk him, does that mean he's into golden showers?



Actually, what it demonstrates is self-awareness.

Not only is your dog showing that he understands he is an individual, but he is communicating his status to other dogs who may come to that rock and sniff it.

In wild canines this is how they mark their territory and signal to competing packs the health and numbers of the pack that owns the territory.

An awareness of ownership, a willingness to communicate with unseen members of the species, to me these are symptoms of self-awareness.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/1/2007 8:15:30 PM >

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:18:25 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Wellllllll! I am fresh out of the shower after a really awsome day. Except for trudging around a hot dusty fairgrounds looking at a bazillion ( maybe a wee bit of an exageration ) old tractors that all tend to blur together after awhile. Some old cars and weird steam engines of all sorts. Carrying around, alternately a 3 yo and a 4yo. Riding a very cool steam engine train, watching a faux wild west gunfight. Eating pizza and some fruit smoothies and sharing a bigass turkey leg. Well, I certainly cannot say it was selfless at all. Not altogether fun for me, except for the looks on the two little fellows faces and the glow I get from making them happy, but it was a wonderful day.

Soooooooo, what trouble has been brewing here?


Ron and I were discussing the merits of the fact that I have placed you "Under Consideration"....We will each be taking turns in showing you some different fishing techniques....Now the debate hinged on what techniques could you pass on to two weary pussy hounds like ourselves?

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Profile   Post #: 232
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:20:33 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		"........"

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Profile   Post #: 233
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:28:10 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

Actually, what it demonstrates is self-awareness.


anyone peeing from a male perspective has to be pretty self aware, no matter the animalia or phylum he is assigned to.  otherwise it gets messy for all concerned.

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Bobkgin)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:31:10 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I am still under consideration huh? I thought it was you who was under consideration with me? Oh well, I am flexible.

Techniques eh.............. well I think we better narrow down the topic before I can expound (did I spell that right, it looks funny) upon my vast well of knowledge.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:34:52 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Just because somebody has to say it, it is needful:

You know I never meant to see you again
and I only passed by as a friend
All this time I stayed out of sight
I started wondering why

Now I, I wish it would rain down, down on me
Yes I wish it would rain, rain down on me now

You said you didn't need me in your life
I guess you were right
Well I never meant to cause you no pain
But it looks like I did it again

Now I, I wish ....

Though your hurt is gone, mines hanging on, inside
And I know it's eating me through every night and day
I'm just waiting on your sign

'Cos I know, I know I never meant to cause you no pain
And I realize I let you down
But I know in my heart of heart of hearts
I know I'm never gonna hold you again

Now I..

Can you imagine my world?

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 236
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:35:03 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Wellllllll! I am fresh out of the shower after a really awsome day. Except for trudging around a hot dusty fairgrounds looking at a bazillion ( maybe a wee bit of an exageration ) old tractors that all tend to blur together after awhile. Some old cars and weird steam engines of all sorts. Carrying around, alternately a 3 yo and a 4yo. Riding a very cool steam engine train, watching a faux wild west gunfight. Eating pizza and some fruit smoothies and sharing a bigass turkey leg. Well, I certainly cannot say it was selfless at all. Not altogether fun for me, except for the looks on the two little fellows faces and the glow I get from making them happy, but it was a wonderful day.

Soooooooo, what trouble has been brewing here?


The weird engines were probably old threshers/boilers?  I love the restored "hit or miss" 2-cycles.  Great old farm engines.  And tractors...ahhh...tractors....rich city boys buy the muscle cars they loved when they were 14 when they turn 50 -- rich farm boys buy the tractors they adored.   Me?  I'm a hybrid.  love 'em both.

By the way, dear, beware....domiguy wouldn't know a Farm-all from a John Deere.   And Ron would do a little better, but he's a Minnesota poseur.  Me?  I know what an Iowa girl wants.   I'll take you away on my 1947 Farmall H (with the gas engine and modified PTO)...it will be the ride of your life *WINK*

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:38:12 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I know which is the working end of a cobb of corn....

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Profile   Post #: 238
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:38:42 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		lol, I was talking to a guy mowing with a farmall h(name of Dean) and trying to figure out where I could get a woods mower to fit my 1938 B allis (no hyraulics) so clutch lift.....

just friday up in Brainerd.

And I went to see Art Fithun today as I got home but he wasn't around and Jerry Greenwood had no idea where I could get one.

Ron

the working end of a cob of corn only needs one b...........

I will let others relate the outhouse stories.

LOL


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/1/2007 8:40:43 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 239
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/1/2007 8:43:38 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline 		Mmmmm.  Corn cobbs.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 240
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