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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 5:33:05 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Selfishness is concern for one's own desires without regard for anyone else.

It is no different than the child running around declaring everything is "mine mine mine!"

Selflessness takes into account the needs of others.

Selfishness is about exploiting another person to get what you want.

Selflessness is about being thoughtful and considerate towards others, and helping them get what they want.

I am not in the least surprised those who advocate selfishness refuse to believe selflessness exists. I'd be more surprised if they admitted there was a virtue they lacked. Much easier on their egos to deny the existence of selflessness altogether.

But selflessness doesn't disappear just to make the egos of the selfish feel better about being selfish, nor does it disappear to make it easier for the selfish to justify exploiting whomever they can lure in.

Thieves believe everyone steals.

Liars believe everyone lies.

The selfish believe everyone is selfish.

Only those who do not steal, do not lie, and are not selfish can see that others like them exist.

Those who steal, who lie, who are selfish simply cannot conceive of anyone accomplishing something they have failed to accomplish.

That is the role ego plays in their lives: no one can be better than the thief, the liar, the selfish.

Fortunately, their egos do not change reality one whit.



You speak as though you are one enlightend.
Yet your words are full of hate and condemnation for those that do not agree.
The most spiritual and enlightened people did and do not hate anyone, for hate is a selfish emotion in the negative - as well as a waste of precious moments.
This can be learned.
 
Peace
the.dark.


< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 9/2/2007 5:50:32 AM >


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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 5:52:18 AM   
FullCircle


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I think if I was going to add anything to make people understand my point of view better I would ask this question:

Two fire-fighters rush into a burning building one has no regard for his safety and acts in a so called selfless way. The other fire-fighter is scared and does everything he can to maintain his personal safety as he works.

So who is more of a hero?

It seems some are confusing heroism with the mythical quality of human selflessness. We all do things for our own reasons whether it is a moral obligation or a sense of empathy. I don’t like the word selfless because everyone is selfish it just depends on the degree of selfishness as bob said himself. Then for some reason he got side tracked and started bringing up emotive points to batter people with.

Sorry to labour the point but I think some are just not understanding my point of view on this matter.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 9/2/2007 5:54:26 AM >


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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 5:53:10 AM   
LaTigresse


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Humour is a delightful thing. On that note, I have to say that the last couple of pages of this thread keeps reminding me of an old "Friends" episode. Phoebe was determined to do one selfless deed and couldn't. Regardless of what she did, someone always pointed out to her something that she gained from it.

I remember reading about a study once that said no such thing exists. Regardless of the act, we always gain something from it. Even if is just the satisfaction of having done it. They actually studied people that put their lives in danger such as firefighters and police for the study. There is some sort of chemical reaction, not unlike a bungee jumper, that takes place that is physically addictive.

There is also another interesting fact at play with some of the heroe types. A lack of fear. Different brain chemical makeup. It can exist in the most diabolical killers like Richard Kuklinski or the, so called, bravest of heroes. They simple are able to put themselves in situations of great danger without any fear of their own demise. Those like this are not more brave or selfless, they simply do not have the ability to be fearful for their own safety. Add that with the rush of actually doing something good and you have a so called "selfless" hero.

If anyone, like me, is fascinated with criminal psychology, see the two part interview with Richard Kuklinski. Fascinating stuff.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:02:48 AM   
LaTigresse


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Another thought just came to mind. If self awareness is all it takes for an animal to do selfless acts, and we have already brought lesser animals into the conversation, then why will most communal animals like......lions, most wild canids, even the meerkat, fight to the death for the safety of the other group members?

I propose that as animals, even the more highly evolved species that we are, that live in packs or groups....we all share a very basic and primal instinct to protect the group because we know that the group is our survival. I also propose that an intensified version of that is ramped up via hormones when a female gives birth. We have seen it when a prey animal will fight a predator to save it's offspring.

So, if such a primal urge exists, it would make sense that it will exist is varying degrees among individuals. Not unlike any other characteristic such as playfulness or a sense of humour. Or dominance and submission. Each of us is wired slightly different. AND, who is to say that there is one RIGHT or BEST way? Perhaps the survival of the group has always depended upon the individual strengths of it's individual members. Just as a group needs a leader perhaps they also need some more or less selfless. Balance, I think it is all about balance.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:06:03 AM   
Cyntilating


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Velvet,
 
 you wrote [What would you call this? It wasn't planned, there was no forthought, just immediate reaction to a danger that was present and an action to save a life.  In case your wondering this isn't a made up story, it happened to me on the way to work one day.  When i got home from work that day, i cried my eyes out realizing i could have been killed and my children would have lost their mother. Maybe that makes me selfish - maybe you will say the selfless thing to do would be to witness another human being being run down by parkway traffic because to risk my life to save an old lady, being that i had children, was selfish - but guess what, that thought process never had a chance to even enter my mind, there wasn't time. i had to act and act fast or this woman would have been road kill.  ]

 {avoiding calling it either, and possibly prepetuating the selfish vs selfless debate, because I can see it is the perspective and individual interpretation of the terms that are in  each persons  responses...but wanting to comment on your story }

What would you call this?
I would call it compassion, sensativity and greathearted..
 
 : )  kudos... 




_____________________________

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.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:06:37 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Selfishness is concern for one's own desires without regard for anyone else.

It is no different than the child running around declaring everything is "mine mine mine!"

Selflessness takes into account the needs of others.

Selfishness is about exploiting another person to get what you want.

Selflessness is about being thoughtful and considerate towards others, and helping them get what they want.

I am not in the least surprised those who advocate selfishness refuse to believe selflessness exists. I'd be more surprised if they admitted there was a virtue they lacked. Much easier on their egos to deny the existence of selflessness altogether.

But selflessness doesn't disappear just to make the egos of the selfish feel better about being selfish, nor does it disappear to make it easier for the selfish to justify exploiting whomever they can lure in.

Thieves believe everyone steals.

Liars believe everyone lies.

The selfish believe everyone is selfish.

Only those who do not steal, do not lie, and are not selfish can see that others like them exist.

Those who steal, who lie, who are selfish simply cannot conceive of anyone accomplishing something they have failed to accomplish.

That is the role ego plays in their lives: no one can be better than the thief, the liar, the selfish.

Fortunately, their egos do not change reality one whit.



You speak as though you are one enlightend.
Yet your words are full of hate and condemnation for those that do not agree.
The most spiritual and enlightened people did and do not hate anyone, for hate is a selfish emotion in the negative - as well as a waste of precious moments.
This can be learned.
 
Peace
the.dark.



But....but....

He IS the Messiah!

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:11:22 AM   
Bobkgin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating

I would call it compassion, sensativity and greathearted..



In a word: selfless.

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

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Profile   Post #: 267
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:20:03 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, the point flew past this in the tumultuous thunderstorm of the nights postings, but I think that if you have everyone on block, then self-awareness is all that is left to you.


Ron


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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:26:56 AM   
DS4DUMMIES


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Tigresse, here is a quote from George Washington, that says more or less the same thing you had noted.....

"When men are irritated and the Passions inflamed, they fly hastily and cheerfully to Arms; but, after the first emotions are over, to expect, among such People, as compose the bulk of an Army, that they are influenced by any other principles than those of Interest, is to look for what never did, and I fear never will happen."

Letter written by Washington, to the President of Congress as he lobbied for a standing Army to be created...

DS4


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Humour is a delightful thing. On that note, I have to say that the last couple of pages of this thread keeps reminding me of an old "Friends" episode. Phoebe was determined to do one selfless deed and couldn't. Regardless of what she did, someone always pointed out to her something that she gained from it.

I remember reading about a study once that said no such thing exists. Regardless of the act, we always gain something from it. Even if is just the satisfaction of having done it. They actually studied people that put their lives in danger such as firefighters and police for the study. There is some sort of chemical reaction, not unlike a bungee jumper, that takes place that is physically addictive.

There is also another interesting fact at play with some of the heroe types. A lack of fear. Different brain chemical makeup. It can exist in the most diabolical killers like Richard Kuklinski or the, so called, bravest of heroes. They simple are able to put themselves in situations of great danger without any fear of their own demise. Those like this are not more brave or selfless, they simply do not have the ability to be fearful for their own safety. Add that with the rush of actually doing something good and you have a so called "selfless" hero.

If anyone, like me, is fascinated with criminal psychology, see the two part interview with Richard Kuklinski. Fascinating stuff.


_____________________________

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:31:06 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, the point flew past this in the tumultuous thunderstorm of the nights postings, but I think that if you have everyone on block, then self-awareness is all that is left to you.

Ron



Nooo he also has those people with bob-awareness to listen to. 

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:36:48 AM   
LaTigresse


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Another thought as I watch the posts. If someone is assured that they have done a selfless act then I question is it still selfless when they brag about it, thereby gaining the pleasure of blowing their own horn, so to speak. Which leads others to tell them how wonderful they are, as expected, so they can bask in the warm glow of what a wonderful selfless person they are. ??

You see........Phoebe could find no selfless deed.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 6:51:08 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
And yes, I agree - wishing to attain perfection or wanting to be selfless is no bad thing.  But when one sees oneself as selfless or perfect, that in itself is already flawed by ones own ego.


I wish I had said that because it's the only point I was trying to make.

I think people don’t like to admit that selflessness doesn’t exist because then they start to question why anyone helps anyone else. The reality is we all need one another on some level therefore we help one another.

Why is that so hard to understand for some?

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:09:40 AM   
Cyntilating


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating

I would call it compassion, sensativity and greathearted..



In a word: selfless.


Bob,
with all due respect, I'm sure...
 
that is your preferred definition ( and entitled to it you are..)
smiles....
I said what I meant.. : ) and meant what I said :
{avoiding calling it either, and possibly prepetuating the selfish vs selfless debate, because I can see it is the perspective and individual interpretation of the terms that are in  each persons  responses...but wanting to comment on your story }




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.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:12:16 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I would hope to keep the discussion polite if possible - and you are right, I do not believe in selfless acts.
Selfless acts would be acts are a beautiful concept but in my world they do not exist.......


i think i have been polite, do you think i haven't because i have disagreed with you? 

At any rate let me pose to you a little story - a woman is on her way to work, a mundane day of traveling and the usual traffic except this day it is slower then usual with cars going at a crawls pace.  Worried about being late the woman keeps looking at the time and wondering what has happened up ahead. Finally cars start to dribble by one at a time and as she nears the front line to be let by she notices a big car and an old woman walking back and forth around her car, realizing their was an accident she realizes what was holding up the traffic all this time.  A few cars dribble past and as this woman waited her turn she noticed odd behavior coming from the old woman, she watched her carefully wondering what she was doing when all of a sudden it was apparent this old lady was going to climb over a guard rail.  Realizing this, this woman slammed her vehicle into park, ran over to the guard rail which the old lady was half across, went over it herself, ended up in the left lane of the opposite side traffic grabbing this old lady so she would not be hit by a car in her dazed condition from the accident. Horns blasted as she could feel the air from passing cars nearly graze her back.  By that time, others were there to help these two woman back over the guard rail.  She told the others that the old lady was in shock from some head trauma, obvious because her head was gushing some blood and that they should get her to the other side where there was grass, lay her down with her feet elevated and put a blanket on her till an ambulance came. This woman went back to her car and continued on to work, albeit a bit shaken from the ordeal, but still worried she would be late.  What would you call this? It wasn't planned, there was no forthought, just immediate reaction to a danger that was present and an action to save a life.  In case your wondering this isn't a made up story, it happened to me on the way to work one day.  When i got home from work that day, i cried my eyes out realizing i could have been killed and my children would have lost their mother. Maybe that makes me selfish - maybe you will say the selfless thing to do would be to witness another human being being run down by parkway traffic because to risk my life to save an old lady, being that i had children, was selfish - but guess what, that thought process never had a chance to even enter my mind, there wasn't time. i had to act and act fast or this woman would have been road kill. 

i do understand what you are sayin though about selfishness not necessarily being a bad thing, and i agree with you - it's necessary to be selfish sometimes in life, people cannot be selfless 100% of the time.  i see nothing wrong with trying to be selfless in a relationship though - if both partners worked on that ideal the relationship would be one of nurturance and security, and just a beautiful way to express each others love. Will they reach 100% total selflessness all the time - no, but it's a hell of an ideal to strive for in my book :-)


It was a nice gesture...Perhaps the woman who cried didn't really understand that her life was never really in any danger....It was kind of you to help out the old lady...Maybe you are over dramatic.  I doubt that by helping the old lady there was ever any chance of you getting hurt.

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:15:01 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

I think people don’t like to admit that selflessness doesn’t exist because then they start to question why anyone helps anyone else. The reality is we all need one another on some level therefore we help one another.


Why can't people do it because it's the right thing to do?  Without needing to hear about how awesome and wonderful they are, for just doing the right thing and being a good person.  And in the case of some, for receiving a paycheck as well.  Yes, some people are actually compensated through wages to do good and save lives, and face the risk of death.  It doesn't lessen their good deeds, but it's just a reminder that not all good deeds are selfless.


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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:22:29 AM   
Bobkgin


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To the audience at large:

The argument that the selfless can in no way benefit from their actions is a fallacy.

The selfish, by definition, focus on their own benefits, to the exclusion of others.

The selfless, by definition, are not selfish.

Thus they are focusing on the benefits of themselves -and- others.

The selfless seek a win-win result, whereas the selfish only focus on winning for themselves, and to hell with anyone else.

The selfless do not take: they receive what is given.

This is why they seek a harmonious balance of opposites: a self-sustaining cycle of giving and receiving.

For too much giving without enough receiving leads to an energy drain that cannot be sustained indefinitely.

Real-life slaves have been worked to death, thus demonstrating this simple principle.

Real-life slaves were owned by selfish people, not selfless people.

It is not hard to see why selfish people insist selflessness does not exist.

In any capitalist society, selfishness is the engine that drives the economy, and makes rich men richer.

How do you make money if people selflessly help one another, rather than selfishly hoarding all to themselves?

The first job I ever had, was selling shoes. On one occassion I was required to slash old shoes that were not sold.

I asked, why don't we give these to charity, they haven't the money to buy them?

I was told that the company believed it was better for the company to refuse to give to charity, and thus force the needy to buy the shoes at retail outlets.

Better to slash shoes than give to those who have no money.

It wasn't until the following year that I'd had enough. A woman came in with her two young children, looking for winter boots.

She couldn't afford more than the cheapest of rubber boots, with a pair of insoles in each.

Back then, winters in Toronto could be bitterly cold, and none of my artful efforts of persuasion could convince her to buy a better boot.

She didn't have the money.

So I bought them the boots. Quit the next day.

I just couldn't be a part of a system that did this to little kids.

It is difficult to blame the selfish for being selfish. Like religion, selfishness is encouraged from birth.

Not everyone is taught this, but those who are taught selfishness are less likely to play nice with the other kids.

For every 11 kids in day care, there will be one bully who threatens the others or has done harm to the others.

It is not that selfishness must be deliberately taught. It can be taught through example, through older siblings or neglectful parents. By older bullies in the school yard.

Selflessness need not be taught deliberately either. I recall the man who came to our home in Montreal when I was a kid. He asked my mom if she could spare hims omething to eat. She brought him a bowl of soup, and I know we were not well off at that time.

Yet here was someone in greater need than us, and she helped.

Some of us were taught to care for others, as well as ourselves.

Some of us were just taught to care for ourselves, and to hell with others.

The first I call "selfless", the other "selfish".

To say we should all be selfish is to justify "every man for himself", "let the buyer beware", and other anti-social traits.

No society, no civilization can long endure the inability to trust one another.

In a selfish world, you believe everyone else is selfish. You believe everyone is seeking to get the most for what they give: to make a profit from their effort.

You don't believe anyone is seeking a balance.

You don't trust anyone. Everyone is competition.

You are trying to replace those above you, and they are trying to keep you from replacing them.

You are trying to eliminate those beside you, so that you can get all their rewards.

You are trying to keep those beneath you from replacing you, for they want what you've got.

Dog eat dog world.

Obviously there are people who grew up in such a world. Their inability to see beyond their faith in selfishness demonstrates how much they've relied upon selfishness to survive.

But not everyone is raised in a world like that. And amongst such people who were taught to help others, selflessness is a better paradigm.

Quite honestly, I am glad I was raised in a world where the people who taught me could see past selfishness to a better, more selfless world.

I pity those who must live in a world where selfishness is the best they can do.

And I recognize that by far, they are the majority in our society. One need only listen to the numbers of fakes, wannabes and liars reported in the profiles of submissive women to see how rampant selfishness is.

But I am reminded that the world was not flat when the majority believed it so.

And the world did not become round just because the majority changed their minds.

The selfish can beat their breasts and proclaim selflessness a delusion as much as they wish.

It does not make it so, and does not change my world one bit.

Nor would it change the world of anyone who is on a path for selflessness.

We all know there are selfish people in the world.

The real question is, who wants to be exploited until there is nothing left of to give, only to be discarded for fresh meat?


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to DS4DUMMIES)
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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:26:16 AM   
domiguy


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Bob is one of the least selfless folks I have ever had the pleasure to read....He posts information under the guise of  helping others...It's all just plain and simply trolling for pussy....The dangers of outdoor bondage.....It was supposed to be an "informative post" ...Bullshit it is trying to appeal to some screwed up subs kink and hopefully she would realize that I'm the man....Post after fucking post you learn how he is a teacher who can help slaves overcome all of their afflictions...The self appointed ....Self esteem fixer upper. Drags out his dead family at every opportunity to show how sad his life is...And also prove the point that he was a tremendous father and provider.  None of this is normal conversation...It is all carefully choreographed to show him as being  "Godlike."  No flaws..Selfless...Can you imagine how much it would suck spending time with this lil' cute runt?

I don't believe one word Bob brings out here....Little Napoleon.  There is a lid for every pot. Bob's pot is full of poo...I certainly hopes he finds his lid soon...Starting to stink up the joint kinda bad.

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RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:28:59 AM   
Bobkgin


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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyntilating

I would call it compassion, sensativity and greathearted..



In a word: selfless.



I said what I meant.. : ) and meant what I said :



So did I.


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to Cyntilating)
Profile   Post #: 278
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:32:44 AM   
Bobkgin


Posts: 1335
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

Tigresse, here is a quote from George Washington, that says more or less the same thing you had noted.....

"When men are irritated and the Passions inflamed, they fly hastily and cheerfully to Arms; but, after the first emotions are over, to expect, among such People, as compose the bulk of an Army, that they are influenced by any other principles than those of Interest, is to look for what never did, and I fear never will happen."

Letter written by Washington, to the President of Congress as he lobbied for a standing Army to be created...

DS4



Washington was a real-life slave owner, owning humans kidnapped from Africa as property, to be bought, sold, bred, raped, worked to death, whatever, at whim.

Does that sound like someone with a corner on the market of human psychology?


_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to DS4DUMMIES)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: "Love Reign O'er Me" - 9/2/2007 7:40:05 AM   
Cyntilating


Posts: 581
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

I think people don’t like to admit that selflessness doesn’t exist because then they start to question why anyone helps anyone else. The reality is we all need one another on some level therefore we help one another.


Why can't people do it because it's the right thing to do?  Without needing to hear about how awesome and wonderful they are, for just doing the right thing and being a good person.  And in the case of some, for receiving a paycheck as well.  Yes, some people are actually compensated through wages to do good and save lives, and face the risk of death.  It doesn't lessen their good deeds, but it's just a reminder that not all good deeds are selfless.



I, personally, don't mind hearing about the positives in people...kindness found in humanity.  I find it nice to be reminded (even refocused) that there is something else going on with people other than the negativity, animosity, greed and spite/hatred/ill-will towards others that seems to get the limelight on a daily basis....
    where is the harm in it?   it =  stories of good deeds or goodness in others actions...
we can be jealous of it in others...or we can be inspired by it...
 
I choose to be inspired..
 
 


_____________________________

Cyndi

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to KatyLied)
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