How do Dominants keep "White Knight" syndrome in check?

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How do Dominants keep "White Knight" syndrome... - 9/5/2007 7:26:33 AM

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How do Dominants keep any tendency to want to be seen as "heroic" (or to be helpful) to a submissive in check for the good of their submissive, and also for themselves?

I know it can exist, and don't think it's a bad thing - that's why I am asking. I wonder how this works, or doesn't in any existing D/s relationships (or budding ones) out there - mostly M/f - but F/m works too (or gay).

I am not even presuming a submissive here who is purposely manipulative, or even majorly screwed up. I can imagine circumstances, though, where a Dominant wanting to be a "hero" might not always be a good thing for either the Dominant or the submissive.

To clarify: *This question is not meant to be a disrespectful question of Dominants in any way. I am asking out of sheer curiosity.

I was thinking that one of the feelings a submissive might desire from a Dominant is one of being "rescued" - from that big scary spider crawling on a wall she wants you to get rid of (or other creepy-crawly things), to well, the fact her ex-partner may pound on the door wanting to beat her up, and then expects you to jump in to stop the guy. Or whatever. Bailing her out of a bad circumstance involving - you name it.

Where do you personally, as a Dominant "draw the line" as far as being "heroic" - and how do you do it?

Thanks for any replies to this question, I appreciate them.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 7:54:34 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:31:35 AM

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I think it's a lot about realizing my own limitations and respecting my own boundaries on how much I can help others and keep a positive life.

I think it's also a lot about putting my own arrogance aside to realize that I'm not here to help everyone and that ultimately unless the person themselves is ready to seek within and make changes for themselves, there's not much else I can really do.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:32:48 AM

RRafe

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By not trying to "own" something I neither have the right or ability to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

How do Dominants keep any tendency to want to be seen as "heroic" to a submissive in check for the good of their submissive, and also for themselves?

I know it can exist, and don't think it's a bad thing - that's why I am asking. I wonder how this works, or doesn't in any existing Ds relationships (or budding ones) out there - mostly M/f, but F/m works too.

I am not even presuming a submissive here who is purposely manipulative, or even majorly screwed up. I can imagine circumstances, though, where a Dominant wanting to be a "hero" might not always be a good thing for either the Dominant or the submissive.

To clarify: *This question is not meant to be a disrespectful question of Dominants in any way. I am asking out of sheer curiosity.

I was thinking that one of the feelings a submissive might desire from a Dominant is one of being "rescued" - from that big scary spider crawling on a wall she wants you to get rid of (or other creepy-crawly things), to well, the fact her ex-partner may pound on the door wanting to beat her up, and then expects you to jump in to stop the guy. Or whatever. Bailing her out of a bad circumstance involving - you name it.

Where do you personally, as a Dominant "draw the line" as far as being "heroic" - and how do you do it?

Thanks for any replies to this question, I appreciate them.

- Susan

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:34:36 AM

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Thanks Rrafe - can you clarify that a bit? (an example?) I do appreciate the reply, really.

Thanks for the reply, LA - it is appreciated.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 7:37:12 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to RRafe)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:36:54 AM

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I make them recite over and over..."Domiguy is not a God." I tell them that although I seem deityesque do not confuse my lack of empathy, feelings, the ability to bleed and to smote at will with the real McCoy.....It pisses me off when they fall to their knees and beg for me to "make them hot or to enlarge their tits."

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:37:46 AM

RRafe

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The white knight syndrome arises from an arrogance of mind that insists that one is powerful enough to influence the mind and actions of another individual. Usually justified by the deluded thought that you will improve said individual.

It's like an amatuer car buff doing a rebuild. With people, the car has to rebuild itself. No one else can-you realize that-and you stop doing that sort of nonsense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Thanks Rrafe - can you clarify that a bit? I appreciate the reply.

- Susan

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:38:37 AM

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That works well, I imagine. Thanks, domiguy!

Rrafe - thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it.

**Do ya'll have examples of where you have personally "drawn the line" as far as "heroic expectations" of you? domiguy gave his famed "make my tits bigger" example, of course. Others are welcome, too.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 7:45:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:39:52 AM

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I'm not sure I've ever been "heroic", although I like to think I'm among the first to respond when people are in need. That's who I am, and who I want to be.

As for keeping it "in check"--yes, there are times when rushing into a situation is not the wise thing to do. A drowning person who's still thrashing around isn't ready to be rescued--they need to get tired first. Throw them a line if you can and hope they take it, but if they don't, don't grab them yourself until they calm down; doing otherwise gets you hurt and then there are two drowning victims instead of one.

Extending the metaphor, I keep such impulses restrained by reminding myself of such things, and that rendering aid isn't about flashy gestures and extraordinary effort--it's about making a situation better for someone else. Best way to do that is to begin by thinking.

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RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:43:23 AM

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Thanks celticlord2112, I appreciate that metaphor - it's clarifying.

I appreciate all of the replies, so far. Thanks folks!

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:43:48 AM

e01n

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I read Gormenghast and do my best to emulate Steerpike...

It's pretty easy: what am I saving them from?
As one of my favorite partners put it, she has a consensual relationship with the dragon and so I have no need to slay it. Put it on a leash and walk it around the block, maybe... slay, no.

If I'm involved with them, chances are I know well enough what they need to be dealing with in Real Life. I might choose to help them on some things (like going and helping her pick out a new interview outfit), but for the most part I'm there as release valve.

Then again, I'm not a domly Dom and I rarely even play one on TV. YMMV.

< Message edited by e01n -- 9/5/2007 7:57:34 AM >

(in reply to RRafe)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:48:13 AM

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Thanks for the reply e01n. A release valve. That sounds like a friendly thing. I am going to I wonder how many subs have consensual relationships with their dragons? I suppose there are quite a few who just want them kept on a leash. masochists probably want them running around off-leash at times, too, I suppose (maybe, I dunno).

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 7:49:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to e01n)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:53:55 AM

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Maybe "heroic" was not a good word to use. Maybe I should say just wanting to help her/him?(I just changed the wording of the original question to reflect that, too).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 7:55:42 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:55:34 AM

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I'm trying to understand the question, but not coming up with much.

I stood by my wife as she died of cancer. Is that considered "heroic"?

I was at a college concert with a friend of mine who was DJing between sets when a light stand collapsed and hit a girl, knocking her out cold. The usual crowd gathered, blocking any access to her by EMS. I took the stand and grabbed a microphone and explained the situation to the crowd and got them to back off and when the EMS arrived I got those between the girl and the door to clear a path. Was that "heroic"?

At another college concert a drunk was hitting on a girl and wouldn't stop till I stepped in and told him to back off. He asked "are you her boyfriend" and I said "yes". He backed off, she thanked me, and that was the end of it. Was that "heroic"?

I was driving one of the roads that lead to my place when a cat shot out from the side of the road and was hit and thrown by the van in front of me. I stopped to see what aid I could render the cat (the van never knew what happened and was gone). I found the cat beyond hope, so I spent 30 minutes or so with it, petting it and speaking softly to it so it wouldn't have to die alone. Was that "heroic"?

I've offered advice and comfort to more women whose self-esteem was injured by the men in their lives than I'll ever recall. Was that "heroic"?

I'm here trying to build a new life after my wife and only son died. Is that "heroic"?

Because I don't think of any of the above as acts of heroism. For me, they are just being human.

I believe in helping others in need.

Have I tried to help fakes who were trying to manipulate me? Perhaps. I'll never really know. I treated their described propblems as real, offered sympathy and advice, and moved on.

I don't see how I was harmed by this.

So I suppose I'm not connecting with the concept behind the question very well.

< Message edited by Bobkgin -- 9/5/2007 7:56:45 AM >

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When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

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(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 7:57:08 AM

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Bobkgin: I know, I changed the wording of the question. I get you're a nice guy (I believe it, too, I really do).

Are there ever times you think it might be better to hold back, though, for some reason - like it might be better for the submissive? I know that might sound awful, but have you?

*I am not referring to people you don't know very well - I am referring to people you do know - and how you make judgments of what is "best for them". I hear this phrase tossed about frequently: Let your Dom decide what is "best for you".

One thing I am asking how some know what that is all the time, I guess.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 8:13:57 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Bobkgin)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:00:19 AM

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We all know that different things activate us in primitive ways. Having been "activated" into rescue sequence like behavior(on more than one occaision); once the intitial event wave was finished, I try to clarify the complete story. If the story is too murky; then an exit strategy is developed. Otherwise clarifying both parties expectations and perceptions is in order. Being clear on going in and "not fixing' someone is the most important focus. It's a relationship; not a therapy...although we all know positive thnings can occur in the most unlikely of pairings. As e01n said...what are you saving them from?

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Reality is what you create; not what others leave behind.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:02:26 AM

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Blind Descent: Thanks, that makes it clearer for me - one can have an inclination to rescue, but analyze what it is the person is being rescued from. Relationship is not the same as therapy. I appreciate the reply.

I don't have any specific scenarios in mind, really - I guess that is up to the two people involved.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 8:05:00 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to BlindDescent)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:04:06 AM

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I have found that the dominants as well as submissives that have a solid natural self esteem do not have to worry about this area. There is nothing to control if it does not exist. The dominant recognizing they are in a relationship like everyone else and most relationships we add values to our significant others in some way.

White knights I have found to be very insecure people who need to feel superior to people to boost their self esteem. They want hero worship not a positive and loving relationship. There need to fix up another person is not out of caring for the other but to feed their ego. Even if their target is doing fine they will pick apart them because of a firm belief that that they must believe themselves as superior and therefore must tangible make another person better.

Submissives that fall for these types are the same just on the opposite spectrum and believe the one person will come riding in their life to make everything good. Might be possible two broken people work together but the odds have to be quite long.

We all want to be with someone that boosts our confidence, happiness and wisdom but these are natural byproducts of a healthy relationship and not things another person does a, b and c to/for you and these trait are bestowed on you. My opinion everyone wants to be admired and looked up to and for the people we care about to help them when we can but wanting to be a hero to another is not something you can turn on or off and if a need then I do not think it is controlled.

I guess what I am saying is a mental healthy dominant never believes their essence can rescue or fix another person and there is a very big difference in wanting to help a person you care for and thinking yourself to be so that that you can fix/rescue another person.

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"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to celticlord2112)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:06:22 AM

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Awesome reply, toservez, thank you.

I have no particular expectations for this thread - the topic was just on my mind, and I honestly started thinking that some Domiannts might get themselves in trouble if they had a complusion to "rescue" people. I see a distinct difference between helping and compulsive rescuing, too. I like heroes as much as anyone - but like you said - I wouldn't want someone making up "flaws" so they'd have "something to improve" either. I have not experienced that, but I can imagine it happening.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/5/2007 8:15:02 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to toservez)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:13:11 AM

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I was seeing a woman who I felt had too much drama in her life and wasn't facing up to it. With her car broken down and all sorts of other issues I walked away from her and cut all contact. She hated me for it and felt abandoned.

She now has a job and stability and I think better off for it. By doing nothing for her she had to face things and deal with them herself. She is better off for having me walk away.

The difference between rescuing someone and enabling is sometimes rather vague and confusing.

I think many dominants love playing the white knight because it is rewarding when done with drama queens who need to be enabled. It gives both a sense of security, she "needs" him and he feels needed. It is a fucked up cycle which is why some of us here rail on the "subs need protection" bullshit (not from the OP) that certain posters just love. It is dysfunctional and emotionally crippling to both dominants and submissives even if they can't see it.

Some times one needs to intervene though even if you don't know if it is enabling. I was taught by my father's example of if you see a man hitting a woman you interfere. I remember being terrified the few times we had to do it, one in particular where he just stopped the car in the middle of the road and tore out after this guy hitting a woman at a bus stop and I had to direct traffic around our car as I couldn't drive yet. That was the other thing my father taught me was to never hesitate to step into something like directing traffic until real help arrives. Used to hate it when I was young (I was quite shy) but secretly revel in it now when I get the chance.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 9/5/2007 8:14:12 AM >

(in reply to BlindDescent)

RE: How do Dominants keep "White Knight" synd... - 9/5/2007 8:13:28 AM

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From: Kawarthas, Ontario, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Bobkgin: I know, I changed the wording of the question. I get you're a nice guy (I believe it). Are there ever times you think it might be better to hold back, though, for some reason - like it might be better for the submissive? I know that might sound awful, but have you?

*I am not referring to people you don't know very well - I am eferring to people you do - and how you make judgments of what is "best for them". I hear this phrase tossed about frequently: Let your Dom decide what is "best for you".

One thing I am asking how they know that, I guess.

- Susan

I wish I could explain how I know. I wish I could teach it to others.

There are times when it appears to border on psychic, but I'm not convinced that's the explanation.

I don't even know if it is a gift or a skill.

To me, it's just who I am and what I do.

Sometimes I've held back. If I've explained the obstacles, and suggested ways to get around them or remove them, I tend to back off and give the individual in trouble the opportunity to work through the information I've provided and come to her own conclusions.

Perhaps its a sense of timing: knowing when to stand beside her and knowing when to let her stand alone. Too much coddling weakens her ability to face difficulties. Too little coddling and she feels abandoned. I've found that people give off subtle cues (usually through words, though facial expressions and body language can also convey this) about what they need.

When I was teaching my son to enjoy my brother's swimming pool, I would take him into the water, holding him (he always had a life jacket). As he grew accustomed to the water, I'd slowly stretch out my arms, holding him at arm's length. He'd get nervous about that, but before he got scared, I'd start drawing him back towards me. Then I'd hold him for a minute and repeat the process.

The whole time I was smiling, confident, and speaking gently with him. But I could read his emotions on his face quite easily and would always know when he needed to be close, and when he was ready to be held at arm's-length again.

Its rather like that, when I help others (which is an over-simplification, as different problems require different approaches, but the idea of timing and reading an individual is in there, so...).

_____________________________

When all is said and done, what will you regret?

That you never really lived?

Or there was so much living left to do?

For those interested: pics and poetry have been added to my profile.

(in reply to SusanofO)

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