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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 6:46:20 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Theologically speaking, natural disasters are the direct result of mankind's failure to repent for it's collective sin. Not an easy answer, but a theologically sound one.


No? and No! Where has that arrived? I would really like to see where, biblically, I have missed out on that statement?
Specific acts maybe, like the great flood, was and is linked to your statement - but not to group all natural disasters as a direct result of mans failiure to repent. Thats what the rainbow is all about - if you really want to be specific. Technically speaking - people killed in floods, are not killed by God at all. Because the great flood was, theologically speaking, the last flood created by specifically God because of mans sin. So technically, floods and tsunamis aren't 'Acts of God'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

When will someone explain to me how human beings are responsible for a tsunami?

This is really starting to get old. You know, you were complaining that I ignored you. It's starting to look like YOU'RE ignoring ME.



I'll weigh in on this one. Mankind, as a whole, is responsible for natural disasters in the same way that a disobediant submissive is responsible for the spanking she receives. Theologically speaking, natural disasters are the direct result of mankind's failure to repent for it's collective sin. Not an easy answer, but a theologically sound one.
While it does raise questions about the ethics of a deity that would allow mankind to wreak havoc on both good and evil indiscriminately, that too was addressed early on in the thread. Those who die in natural disasters without ever being reconciled to God are out of time and those who die in a "state of grace" are being rewarded by being allowed to "go home".
Much of theology is circular, as you know, but it does have its own internal consistency.
Timothy


But mankind, as I am understanding what LaM is getting at - isn't responsible for the tsunami directly.

The tsunami was caused by the massive plate shift (earthquakes) just off indonesia. Now, that plate shift probably didnt have anything to do with man. There was no drilling there, no mines, no nuclear testing(to commen knowledge)(in fact, the USGS have pretty much realised that the effect of nuclear testing and drilling is pretty much nil concerning earthquakes). The reason the plates shift is because the earth is constantly moving.

What people struggle with is why - if there is a God - does He allow it to happen?
But the thing is, if such a thing had happened in the USA or some other highly populated and economically advanced country, there would have been death, sure - but on much less a scale. Thats what we should be addressing as a peoples. Not whether God exists or not - or whether it was an act of God, but why was there such substancial suffering because it happened and where it happened.
Arguing or discussing the ethics on why God would allow innocent children to die doesnt help. What helps is working on the problems of how to make it less destructive next time - what are our leadersdoing to assist? People - need to take responsibility.

LaM asks - why, if there is a God, doesn't He just stop suffering completely.
Angel asks - Why, when there is a God, do we as humans, not learn?

Poverty and Tsunamis

USGS

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 8:12:34 AM   
joecool


Posts: 31
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Rochester
Status: offline 		Forgive me for paraphrasing my way through the thread, it's getting a bit long, and I don't have the time, so if this has been said before, forgive me.

There's a fundamental flaw in the question. God gave the Commandments to Moses to be the rules for the people, not the rules for the people and God. God had a convenant with Abraham, He would be their God, and they would be His people. He would give them land and sons (children really, but remember this is all male perspective), they would worship and obey. God never agree to be bound by his own rules. He didn't even get mad when the Israelites slaughtered gentiles in the Promised Land (walls of Jericho, etc). He even told Abraham to kill his only son as a test of faith. God gave those rules to man, for man to obey, he never said "Hey, I'd like to restain myself along with you". Faith ain't easy.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 10:50:37 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't completely agree with this. I think one of the reasons why we have such a crappy environmental attitude in the first place is because of the lazy-thinking Sunday-school religion that most people are content to carry around with them. Ultimately, it doesn't matter much whether you believe in God or not, but it does matter HOW you believe. People who are not willing to confront the consequences of their professed beliefs can be, as we are witnessing, very destructive.

I mean, where does ANYONE learn the idea that God handed over custodianship of the world to mankind and that natural disasters are a consequence of our inability to handle that responsibility? It's not an idea that you're born with. I don't know whether people learned that in Sunday school, or in church, or at home, but millions of people believe it without questioning it very deeply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Arguing or discussing the ethics on why God would allow innocent children to die doesnt help. What helps is working on the problems of how to make it less destructive next time - what are our leadersdoing to assist? People - need to take responsibility.


(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 11:01:12 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

There's a fundamental flaw in the question. God gave the Commandments to Moses to be the rules for the people, not the rules for the people and God. God had a convenant with Abraham, He would be their God, and they would be His people.


JC,
A decent argument but you don't consider something very important. If you believe the Bible is the "word of god", it is the contradiction within the manuscript that creates the problem. Even in the example you site - an "all knowing" god would have know the outcome. "Testing" shouldn't be needed. And from the same old testament section, An "all merciful" god wouldn't have killed the first born male children of Egypt just so Pharaoh would free "his people". Considering a few days later, he parted the Red Sea and covered Moses escape with a "pillar of fire"; I think he could have made his point without murdering babies.

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 5:49:10 PM   
MasterTemujin


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline 		Hmm... What if God just has a wicked sense of humor.


R/S,

Master Temujin

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 6:04:51 PM   
onceburned


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From: Iowa
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quote:

Considering a few days later, he parted the Red Sea and covered Moses escape with a "pillar of fire"; I think he could have made his point without murdering babies.


Not to drag this conversation off-topic, but God repeatedly 'hardens' the Pharaoh's heart so that he will turn down the requests to leave Egypt. In the story of Exodus, the Pharaoh is the bad guy but he has little say in the matter - God is forcing him to be such a hard-ass. So the murder of the children would seem to have, not only been forseen by God, but planned ahead of time.

Its an unsettling situation. The only thing I can figure out is that God decided he wanted to 'make an example' of someone and was willing to crush free will in order to do it. Its a story which has always left me uneasy.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 6:44:26 PM   
kisshou


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Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		I had to chuckle when I saw you address joecool as JC in a thread about religion ;)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 7:08:53 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

joecool as JC


Glad you caught that!!

Not really to change the subject but referencing a previous post I made about the need for a morality or guilt in order for society to function. How about this question...

Would humanity be "moral" or "good" without religion? Could humanity have survived without some form of religion?

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 7:45:31 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

Would humanity be "moral" or "good" without religion? Could humanity have survived without some form of religion?


I seriously doubt it and in fact just answer with a right out NO. So many people in early cultures wanted answers about creation and purpose. With nothing to push or guild these concepts we would have dwendled away with no motivation. Religion is what has helped cultures form laws and governing systems. Religion was a great way to control the majority to stay and work together. And then there are the health concepts. Both Kosher and Halal foods are very healthy endeed. To get people to eat healthy you needed religion in those days to achieve it.

If you just followed even five of the 10 commandments, how much easier or less complicated would your life be?
Many religious ruleings where made for common sense by people who where smart enough to figure it out and needed to use religion to get everyone else to hop in.

Now with better techniques in Sanitization, eating pork and anal sex aren't all that health risky anymore.

But when it comes to adultry, let's remember that we have two countries/cultures fighting untill the end of time all because one guy couldn't keep his robe closed.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 8:17:17 PM   
MsIncognito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Would humanity be "moral" or "good" without religion? Could humanity have survived without some form of religion?


There is a book by Robert Buckman called "Can we be good without God?" and it addresses this question nicely:

Amazon Link

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/10/2005 9:53:30 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		There are all kinds of moral philosophies that do not presuppose a belief in God. (I'm assuming by "religion" you mean "belief in God," but the two are not exactly the same thing.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Would humanity be "moral" or "good" without religion? Could humanity have survived without some form of religion?


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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 5:52:14 AM   
pinkpleasures


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Yes, i would be moral without a belief in God. i am not moral -- as best as i can be -- out of fear of Him and while i know my moral choices please Him, i do not do them to curry favor. i believe as you age, you become an accumulation of the moral choices you have made -- those you have helped, those you have harmed, and those whom you turned your back on (a sin we all commit). i want to look in the mirror with reasonable contentment. About 3 years ago i wrote letters of forgiveness to people who had harmed me, even my ex (that one was about 14 pages long). It finally dawned on me that hatred is a sin and and that it harms only the only he who hates. i cannot say i felt ten pounds lighter -- in fact i felt confused and still had moments of hatred and it took quite awhile to reach a state of peacefulness. Eventually i did, and the wounds these people caused have began to heal.

i believe that moral choices are the chocolate kisses of life -- they lift you up and fill you will joy. As immoral choices weigh you down until, if you accumulate enough, you will live as a drowning man. It's hard for me to express it any clearer. Healthy people have consciences -- and abiding by them is a joyful experience.

pinkpleasures

_____________________________



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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 6:03:45 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:


In your reference to the child being burned, that is a physical happening to the flesh. As you paraphrased, correctly, Jesus said no harm would come to them. This was in response to a question about the child's soul, not his physical body. Baptism is a ritual for the soul, not to insure that one will never have a scrape or scar.

misteria


quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

Not to drag this conversation off-topic, but God repeatedly 'hardens' the Pharaoh's heart so that he will turn down the requests to leave Egypt. In the story of Exodus, the Pharaoh is the bad guy but he has little say in the matter - God is forcing him to be such a hard-ass. So the murder of the children would seem to have, not only been forseen by God, but planned ahead of time.

Its an unsettling situation. The only thing I can figure out is that God decided he wanted to 'make an example' of someone and was willing to crush free will in order to do it. Its a story which has always left me uneasy.



It's ok....you see by the first quote in response to me earlier, that god only harms your life and your body...but cherishes your soul.

Therefore we can be certain that Pharoh, the first born et al. are now sitting on the right hand of the father in heaven as innocents.

It seems to me that christian factions should coordinate policy and storyline to clarify the moral lessons more vigorously or it might appear to Heathens that christianity is floundering.

Ron

_____________________________

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 9:41:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

There is a book by Robert Buckman called "Can we be good without God?"


A debt of gratitude to you! I actually was discussing this with someone in reference to this conversation and he asked the question and said there was a book out on this subject. Of course he forgot the exact name and author. Thanks for the information.

(in reply to MsIncognito)
Profile   Post #: 274
RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 9:56:10 AM   
testlimit


Posts: 47
Joined: 6/11/2005
Status: offline 		Ok let's see where to begin.....

1. God didn't give us an imperfect world, he created us as part of an everchanging, self-correcting system and gave us the means to learn that system and remain a part of it. We have choosen, in many cases to live in spite of said system. Now, in part that's a good thing, because it shows we are learning and evolving (little "e" changing not big "E" turning into something else) as a people. We are confronted with adversity, selfishness, disasters, social ills and we see that they are not what we want. So we take the gifts that God gave us and we apply them to the problems. We LEARN new ways of dealing with them. We DISCOVER new ideas and new facets to the system we are a part of from dealing with them. This is why God doesn't prevent "bad things from happening" because then we couldn't learn from them. We also wouldn't take any responsiblity for our fellow man, we'd just assume God will take care of it. That attitude is a problem already as we can see through this thread.

God is not Christianity, or Judeaism, or Islam or any of the other attempts people have made to understand Him. God is God. He is all Knowing, All Present and All Powerful. But if He stopped every flood, stilled every earthquake, prevented every volcanic eruption, we would never learn from them, and we would likely continue to splinter further and further apart. When is a time when almost everyone drops the differences that seperate us for a little while and trys to extend a helping hand to our fellow man? It sure as hell ain't when everything's hunky dory and no problems are intruding on our little sphere of comfort. It's in the aftermath of a disaster, man-made or natural.

2. Death is only bad if you assume either:
A. there is no heaven (heaven being a pleasant continuation of existance after the corporeal one has ended not neccessarily the accepted tradition)
or
B. you don't think you or whoever has died is going there (Which contrary to modern distorted doctorine, only happens if YOU choose not to accept God. And you don't go to Hell to be tortured by demons and Satan or any of that other melodramatic horseshit developed by the Catholic Church to scare the bejesus out of the pagans and then drug along into the Protostant faiths. You get to continue existance with a total absence of love, as God is Love, and you choose existance without God).

So to answer the basic question of "How can God be All-Good All-Knowing and All-Powerful, and still let bad things happen?" The answer is....SO WE CAN LEARN FROM THEM. And not just simply how to live in an "imperfect system" but also little things like how our differences are so much bullshit when the shit really hits the fan, and that we have it within us to overcome extraordinary obsticles if we will just find within ourselves (collectively) to do it. And I'm not talking about everyone going out to the beach and holding hands and WILLING the bad weather away. I'm talking about the real tangible abilities God gave us...like empathy with our fellow man and intelligence and imagination to learn from and think of ways to overcome the obsticles in our way.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 275
RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 10:03:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

There are all kinds of moral philosophies that do not presuppose a belief in God. (I'm assuming by "religion" you mean "belief in God," but the two are not exactly the same thing.)


Can the terms religion and philosophy be used interchangeably? The distinction is that religion presupposes a deity and philosophy doesn't. But somehow the idea of consequence still has to be including in the discussion. I guess that's where the necessity of religion and it's inferred deity is needed. Not adhering to a philosophy may get you kicked out of the clan, but it doesn't imply any other consequence except ostracism.

This in fact works in some communities, the Pennsylvania Dutch come to mind, but with a larger population the clan tends to morph into sub-clans and the shame of ostracism is lessened when you can just sign up with a different clan more philosophically compatible. Next you go to "war" with the conflicting clan to inforce your philosophy, citing "god is on your side". Just add ritual and bloodshed and BINGO - you have "religion".

With that logic I think the question has to focus on the religion aspect of the question.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 12:50:09 PM   
misteria


Posts: 13
Joined: 7/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:


In your reference to the child being burned, that is a physical happening to the flesh. As you paraphrased, correctly, Jesus said no harm would come to them. This was in response to a question about the child's soul, not his physical body. Baptism is a ritual for the soul, not to insure that one will never have a scrape or scar.

misteria




It's ok....you see by the first quote in response to me earlier, that god only harms your life and your body...but cherishes your soul.............

Ron


Some may see it that way, and I only speak for myself.. I do not believe that every single occurance on earth is a direct action of God. So I cannot concede to your conclussion, but respect your right to arrive at it. So the burned child example does not hold water as an Act of God, for me.

My religion is based on my own personal relationship with God. I do not subscribe to any one way of thinking or any one set of interpretations of the Bible. I go to a Methodist Church, but do not believe I have to blindly follow every rule or believe every word spoon fed to me. Call me a psuedo heathen or what you will, but for me.. It is a personal, one on one relationship.. and in the end, if I am wrong I will be fully accountable to God on that day. As I said in previous post it's based on faith and faith is not based on logical proof or material evidence. Somethings have to be believed to be seen.

misteria

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 4:42:17 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think so, because a religion has to have institutions, and a philosophy doesn't. Religions aren't religions without a social basis. That's one of the main reasons why religions have had such a pernicious influence on humanity. (Yes, that's my private view, so Christians: fire at will.) They use their institutions to persecute non-believers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Can the terms religion and philosophy be used interchangeably?


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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 11:20:54 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

(Yes, that's my private view, so Christians: fire at will.) They use their institutions to persecute non-believers.


WOW! What a cool point. It's so interesting to view history and see how Christians where persecuted, hunted down, and killed. Finally, Christianity takes hold in 315 A.D. and what does it do? It ends up persecuting everybody that's a non believer. So much for the Golden Rule.



_____________________________

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 279
RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 8/11/2005 11:36:09 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Ever heard of the Inquisition?

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
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