quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

only people stand before him on judgemnt day, not acts of nature

But then being "all merciful" and "all forgiving"; along with the "all knowing" why the need for any judgment? Or is it your position that the diety you worship doesn't control acts of nature?

quote:

Have you not read the book of Job and asked why?
Job never asked why ..... He just believed altho nature and man tried to get him to ask why and deny.

quote:

1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

2 And Job spake, and said,

3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

4 Let that day be darkness; let not God regard it from above, neither let the light shine upon it.

5 Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.

6 As for that night, let darkness seize upon it; let it not be joined unto the days of the year, let it not come into the number of the months.

7 Lo, let that night be solitary, let no joyful voice come therein.

8 Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.

9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:

10 Because it shut not up the doors of my mother’s womb, nor hid sorrow from mine eyes.

11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?

13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,

14 With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;

15 Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:

16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.

18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.

19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

20 Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul;

21 Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;

22 Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?

24 For my sighing cometh before I eat, and my roarings are poured out like the waters.

25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

26 I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavedesires

Have you not read the book of Job and asked why?
Job never asked why ..... He just believed altho nature and man tried to get him to ask why and deny.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

I think you had it right, sanita, when you viewed God as a "big ole dominant". What happens, happens, whether we think it's good or bad or indifferent... our job (imho) is to get on with dealing with the results, not to question the methodology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I agree with all of that except the last paragraph. Who gave us our "job"? I think it is as healthy to question as it is to get on dealing with results.

quote:

I'm kinda surprised that no one has resurrected this thread in the light of the hurricane.

quote:

Both the Bush and Clinton administrations proposed budgets that low-balled the needs. Local politicians grabbed whatever money they could and declared victory. And the public didn't exactly demand tax increases to pay for flood-control and hurricane-protection projects.

Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request.

Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.

How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere -- and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics. Alaska is represented by Republican Rep. Don Young, chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and Republican Sen. Ted Stevens, a senior member of the all-important Senate Appropriations Committee. Louisiana's delegation holds far less sway.
Source: http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/nationworld/articles/1808947.html

quote:

At least that's a more honest answer than what most people give.

Why do you believe? Unlike a lot of people who talk about God, I'm not trying to get you to abandon your faith or see things my way. Actually, I'm trying to understand how to see things YOUR way. I still don't get it, but I find it interesting that you believe even though you take the problems I mentioned seriously. Most people I know who believe in God just try to dismiss all the problems.

Lordandmaster

quote:

What's this have to do with god? Damn if I know! But I'm so pissed off at seeing the lack of action, so angry at decisions being made come at the end of public opinion polls, so amazed that we allow people to rationalize that the looting and mayhem we are witnessing is the fault of everyone else EXCEPT the people actually doing the looting and mayhem. The logic of stealing a DVD or TV in an area with no food or water, let alone electricity to plug in the damn thing. But the Black Caucus, Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpton, resplendent in the $3,000 suits, would use the occasion to blame and point fingers to insight. Leadership would have been better illustrated by just saying, STOP killing each other! STOP putting yourself in a position to be killed by looting goods that you don't need, can't use, and won't feed your hunger or quench your thirst.

quote:

But thats fucking crap. One day, its going to be too late.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I'm kinda surprised that no one has resurrected this thread in the light of the hurricane.

Interestingly, god was used by both the sides of the political and moral battle. Initially someone from the left noted that Mississippi, and Alabama were harder hit because they were "Red-States", and New Orleans "spared" with the late right turn because it was a "Blue-State". Then when the flood hit after the levees broke, it was god "punishing" the City because of a Gay Parade scheduled there.

Wondering if I should be worried about a 8.0 Earthquake when I attend the Folsom Street Fair in SF at the end of the month.

It is the lack of leadership causing most of the suffering in New Orleans. The "usual suspects" are all fighting for TV time. Politicians (local & national), environmentalists, minority "leaders", evangelists, FEMA; they all are positioning while people die.

It's more evident than ever; we have NO leadership in this country. They couldn't conduct a public opinion pool quick enough to determine what they should do. As a result they do nothing! Once the first shot was fired on the medical relief groups Marshall Law should have gone into effect.

The effect of this disaster will be long term and far reaching. The first domino has fallen, and the rest are ready to fall. Fifteen percent of our domestic oil and gas supply was wiped out. Already lines are forming at gas stations in the southeast. Hurricane season isn't over. Right behind that, we have winter coming. Yet, the rest of the country, especially here in LA, goes about their daily routine blindly naive. Just this morning after 15 minutes of "Tragedy Coverage" the local news sent it over to it's buxom weather girl (the one that does the Sunday NFL weather) who giggles embarrassingly while reporting "If those people would have only come here - the weather will be in the 70's and clear ALL weekend for the big Labor Day Holiday!"

What's this have to do with god? Damn if I know! But I'm so pissed off at seeing the lack of action, so angry at decisions being made come at the end of public opinion polls, so amazed that we allow people to rationalize that the looting and mayhem we are witnessing is the fault of everyone else EXCEPT the people actually doing the looting and mayhem. The logic of stealing a DVD or TV in an area with no food or water, let alone electricity to plug in the damn thing. But the Black Caucus, Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpton, resplendent in the $3,000 suits, would use the occasion to blame and point fingers to insight. Leadership would have been better illustrated by just saying, STOP killing each other! STOP putting yourself in a position to be killed by looting goods that you don't need, can't use, and won't feed your hunger or quench your thirst.

If that's perceived as a racist comment, than the core point is illustrated - It's NEVER the fault of the person doing the act, it's the situation he/she were put. Without self accountability there is NO civilization. It goes back to the post I made a few pages back. If religion serves any purpose it is to create an environment of responsibility without daily oversight. Well I think we are witnessing the consequence of that concept breaking down. I don't think it would be any different in the white-ist part of Idaho. Without fear of consequence, humanity resorts to it's primitive "survival of the fittest" savage mentality.

Lack of leadership is what provided the opportunity in this case. And of course $$$ comes into the picture. Let's look at some very recent history regarding the city of New Orleans. But environmentalists keep in mind, for every one foot in height of a levee it takes three feet of wetlands in width. I'm sure some blind salamander types would have bit the bullet. Anyway...

quote:

Both the Bush and Clinton administrations proposed budgets that low-balled the needs. Local politicians grabbed whatever money they could and declared victory. And the public didn't exactly demand tax increases to pay for flood-control and hurricane-protection projects.

Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request.

Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.

How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere -- and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics. Alaska is represented by Republican Rep. Don Young, chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and Republican Sen. Ted Stevens, a senior member of the all-important Senate Appropriations Committee. Louisiana's delegation holds far less sway.
Source: http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/nationworld/articles/1808947.html

It would be an interesting debate if the people in American desire a Hitler-like figure to just take charge. That type of authoritarian figure fills the "law & order" vacuum. The pragmatic decisions will be cheered. "We need lower gas prices." - Nationalize the oil industry and fix prices. It's a VERY dangerous time. L & M, One of the points we disagree is the need for a "Plan". I feel Kerry's loss was due to only solving half the equation. The deficiencies he pointed out regarding Bush and his regime may have been correct, but his lack at detail on the solution was what made him come up short.

Man - WHAT A RAMBLING RANT! And I don't feel any better at all!

God? DAMN them ALL !

Edited, because I was ranting faster than I was spelling and grammering.

quote:

The logic of stealing a DVD or TV in an area with no food or water, let alone electricity to plug in the damn thing. But the Black Caucus, Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpton, resplendent in the $3,000 suits, would use the occasion to blame and point fingers to insight.

quote:

Wondering if I should be worried about a 8.0 Earthquake when I attend the Folsom Street Fair in SF at the end of the month.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

As for the Hitler statement, I remember the story of how Galveston was put under Marshall Law after the GREAT STORM of 1900. Looters were to be shot on sight. Everyone was ordered to work for free booze or be shot/jailed. No one was allowed to just set on a dry piece and begin yelling "WE NEED HELP! WE NEED HELP! WE NEED HELP!" The situation was taken as is and made into better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

But thats fucking crap. One day, its going to be too late.

dark~angel
That day may truly be here.

Curious about how the situation in New Orleans is being perceived by the people in Europe and in particular the UK. I read the papers, but rarely do they document the opinions without a philosophical slant. Is there any surprise about how the US seems impotent to take care of itself in this case?

Thanks!

PS - Very interesting piece you quoted, providing many interesting perspective interpretations.

Yes - I believe this is part of an already ongoing day. Very 'expected' response I guess from a religious fanatic like myself... I think most people who believe in a 'higher power' usually proclaim that their lifetime is in fact the 'end of times' - I think its a way of feeling closer to what people 'know' - however, my belief is that this process began quite a few years ago, probably well over a couple of hundred - and it will last for a lot longer yet and I wont see its fruition in my mortal lifetime... after all, what is a human day to a God?

I think in the UK, it is a tendancy to view everything philosophically - it's not just the papers - rarely is anything black and white. Here, the feeling is unease - and a complete confusion on how anyone - not just USA residents but ourselves as well - how anyone has allowed something like this to happen to such an influential and powerful country. Theres quite a bit of 'one man caused all this' thought (ie Bush) - One thing that was disturbing and Demon mentions this in response to your question - is that after the initial evactuations and after katrina hit and the first pictures were aired - was the see of non caucasion faces. Black - mostly, some hispanic - but white? Barely none. Demons thoughts on this is was this just incompetance or indifference? Mine is one of anger and contempt at watching a government who claims to stand for a multicultural and multi-ethnic country allow such obvious shit to happen, let alone for all the world to see. If you really want to see terrorism, its not just caused by outside forces - your own governments causing it as well.
I dont believe anyone in the UK places any kind of blame on any american countrymen for such situations - and I think they actually do understand the reasons behind the looting and diseffected resentment felt by the citizans of those states - but I think it is americas response to its government that will be the telling finality of it all.

I dont really believe most people in the UK have even thought about the whole 'Acts of God' thing - in truth, I dont think many people have even given thought to just how many natural disasters have occured in the last 50 yrs - let alone the last year. If they did, I am sure a hell of a lot more would be being done. But like that which has been said before - when people do see - its really going to be too late.

I love the particular lyric I quoted, especially if you can hear it - it makes total sense and like all art, is open to individual interpretation. The piece quoted before could be turned upside down. But either way - its still all relevant.
How much more has to happen - how much more do we allow, ignore - before its too late and we make (or create) an enemy instead of a friend?

Peace and Love

quote:

One thing that was disturbing and Demon mentions this in response to your question - is that after the initial evactuations and after katrina hit and the first pictures were aired - was the see of non caucasion faces. Black - mostly, some hispanic - but white? Barely none. Demons thoughts on this is was this just incompetance or indifference? Mine is one of anger and contempt at watching a government who claims to stand for a multicultural and multi-ethnic country allow such obvious shit to happen, let alone for all the world to see.

dark~angel

quote:

Were people in Galveston dropped off at the convention center, told to wait for a bus, and then not given food or water for three days?

You sound like you have the same attitude as FEMA: if people die, it's their own fault.

Lordandmaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You said Job never asked why, not that he never cursed God.

quote:

I believe its His way of population control.