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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 1:15:19 PM

Lordandmaster

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That just doesn't follow. What you might mean is: "Those who wish to grasp the infinite BELIEVE that anything is possible." But believing it doesn't make it so, because the truth does not depend on our beliefs. Whether God exists and whether someone walked on the moon are both either true or false regardless of anyone's beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

So although it may make no sense to you or to the finite mind, those that wish to grasp the infinite are aware that anything is possible...

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 141

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 1:31:47 PM

darkinshadows

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not really - belief comes with the finite IMO - belief and awareness comes with infinite - I have belief - and I have certainty - alot of people only have belief - now for you - it may only be belief and there is absolutely nothing wrong with your belief for you. But for me,it is certainty - why? Well, thats a more personal reason which is actually irrelevant. What is relevant is that You have your belief - I have mine and the knowledge I have been open to. I am not trying to convert anyone - just as you are not wishing to. And if you live in peace with yourself as much as I do, and have no qualms about your understanding that is all that matters.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 142

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 2:12:00 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

but you still didn't do it yoúrself and until you do - it is just a story.

~Angel,
I couldn't resist getting just a touch "evil". By this logic there are a lot of places that don't exist.

beth and I are heading for Amsterdam in October. We've never been there before. So until we land and see it - it doesn't exist?

YES - I LOVE conspiracies, and I deliberately take the dark, less traveled, roads whenever I have the opportunity just to have a "close encounter". Have you ever visited any of the "crop circle" sites in your country? I've read most of Edgar Cayce's books, beth's had me read many of the Holy Grail and Masonic reference books, and beth & I fall asleep every night with the radio on a station broadcasting "Coast To Coast" (Link: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/) which is a US radio program that is ALL about conspiracies.

Appreciate you not trying to convert anyone. Me neither. But you do have me researching Buddhism. Who knows, maybe I'll convert - I'm already close to having a "shaved" head.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 143

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 2:21:47 PM

FangsNfeet

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quote:

why is it that many "Act's of God" such as earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc; kill?

Well Merc when a natural disater of such kills a person, remember that God still considers you alive as you are still a soul that enters the lands of beyond. Thus he really didn't Kill you as per say it's his dicission that it's time for you to leave the earth. "Men themselves are not to have the right to decide when it's someones time to leave the earth." That's my interpritation of this commandment. Though I still highly support the DEATH PENALTY as I belive that you forefit your own life when you unjustly kill someone along with other horrible acts. But for some people, death is just to good for them.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

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Post #: 144

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 2:54:01 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

remember that God still considers you alive as you are still a soul that enters the lands of beyond.

F&f
Now that's a hard and good argument! Interesting. As they used to say on the "Family Feud" game show - "GOOD ANSWER - GOOD ANSWER!"

All you have to do is believe in the existence of a soul. Can I believe in a "soul"? What is the difference between a person, or any living thing, in the second where the it goes from "living" to "dead". All the parts are there, some not working, but there is something that must be added to a body to make it a living thing. A soul? Replace the word soul with "conscience". Is there some, yet undiscovered "22 Grams", within us?

A soul by definition can't be killed, making all death of the physical form not murder, not contra-commandment. Is that the ultimate and justified rationalization that the crusaders, the inquisitioners, the muslims, and every other religion uses in their "holy wars"?

In my not humble opinion, your's was the best point made in this thread. THANKS!

PS - Also agree with both aspects of your "Death Penalty" view. Although the pragmatist in me prefers to kill them versus pay taxes to keep them alive in a prison. How about using them as living body part donors. Considering your point regarding the soul it may be a charitable compromise.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 145

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 2:58:38 PM

darkinshadows

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quote:

~Angel,
I couldn't resist getting just a touch "evil". By this logic there are a lot of places that don't exist.

beth and I are heading for Amsterdam in October. We've never been there before. So until we land and see it - it doesn't exist?

Ah... Now you are understanding my logic!... It's a bit like - if a butterfly beats it's wings kinda thing.....
I havent ever been to visit one, but read alot about them... (maybe they don;t really esist...hahaha.... btw - I really like the film 'signs' ever seen it? ... now thats this thread all wrapped into one film - talk about irony!...lololol)

I live in a land of myth and legend - not far from tintagel and it's supposed birthplace of merlin. And to stand their on the cliff face is to know REAL legend!

Ach, when you come to England - you and beth really must come visit - lol... I have tintagel, jamacia inn, stunning cathedral and penzance with its pirates all in easy reach!(Not to mention the crop circles...lol)

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 146

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 3:22:56 PM

Lordandmaster

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That's right. All those people killed by the tsunami--they're not really dead; they're all just souls entering the lands of the beyond. And the infants without mothers, the millions without loved ones ... well, I guess they all just need to learn a little more about Christian theology, and then their loss won't seem so devastating and senseless.

Do you really believe that a GOOD god would do this? I know, we're not supposed to judge God; we have finite minds and limited understanding--but too bad, God made us this way, and I don't see any good in disasters whatsoever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Well Merc when a natural disater of such kills a person, remember that God still considers you alive as you are still a soul that enters the lands of beyond. Thus he really didn't Kill you as per say it's his dicission that it's time for you to leave the earth.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 147

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 4:11:26 PM

FangsNfeet

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well L & M, I acctually have a whole series of agnostic beliefs myself. I've only pointed this out for the understanding of the Christianity Biblical beliefs. After all, the concept of pergatory wasn't invented untill the Great Plauges of Europe to explain what God had instore of all the Children that died. It has been agreed by others that religion has been invinted to controll the mass populace. As horrible things happen that's out of Mans controll, new inventive ideas to add to the invention of religion had to be placed as to please the populace and keep a somewhat order of things.

If you want to belive more in Nature rather than religion, one can concieve the idea that no one species should over populate the earth as it causes catastrophic environmental damages. Thus the invention of diseases and disasters for the earth to cleanse itself.

But let's all remember one thing. For the most part we know where most of these natural disasters occur. We know the areas of tornedos, earthquaks, hurricanes, floods, land slides, fires, and such are most pobable to happen. Yet ppl still stay in these environments. Cali, Florida, Oklahoma, along the River. So wake up people and get a clue. When you know where the danger is, why do you still live there? Is it still Gods fault when you are already aware of the dangers? Let's look at all the people who live right under volcanoes and Mt St Helens. Whoe's fault is it for dyeing on that one?

Other than that, we all are aware of the possibilities of a Big Meteor whipping the Earth out. I don't know much about Gods Will on that but according to the Bibles discription of his creation of the universe, free will and randomization where thrown into the mix to make just about anything possible. And though I really don't belive in the Jewish Mythology of Noah's Arch, I won't dissagree that the earth hasn't been flooded a time or two in the past 5 billion years and that it's probable to happen again as well as another ICE AGE. The flooding according to the story of Noah did do good.

On the final note. None of us can live forever on earth. No matter what we prcieve in what comes after death, the Earth cannot support immortality and the continueing process of creating new life. The resources just aren't there so ppl have to die. So we are made to be able to get old, die of diseases, and natural disasters. As to why greater powers made us this way in benounced to me but perhaps thats where the ideas of faith come in to play as well.

< Message edited by FangsNfeet -- 7/21/2005 4:14:18 PM >

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 148

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 4:37:30 PM

sub4hire

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quote:

Do you really believe that a GOOD god would do this? I know, we're not supposed to judge God; we have finite minds and limited understanding--but too bad, God made us this way, and I don't see any good in disasters whatsoever.

How do you know what we percieve good to be is actually good? Not to go the philosophical route because I hate people who do that. Although in this conversation it has its merits.

With different versions of the bible we read different things. This has already been pointed out in this thread or one of the many other's.

So, I ask you this. What if god answers all of our prayers? Yet, our time frame is all whacked and it takes a hundred year's to answer them?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 149

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 6:20:44 PM

Lordandmaster

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He doesn't answer the prayers of the people who die in disasters. A mother loses her infant in a tsunami--or turn it the other way around: an infant loses its mother in a tsunami--and you're saying that it's all good because God might answer their prayers hundreds of years from now? I honestly cannot imagine someone believing this and also believing that God is good.

And that gets to your other problem--about how we define "good." It's a tautology to say that "God is good" if "good" means simply "whatever God does." I don't find any humanly comprehensible good in it. In fact, I don't see any good or evil at all; I just see matter and laws, doing their thing, sometimes in ways that we like, sometimes in ways that really fuck us over. Because it didn't all come to pass with us in mind.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

So, I ask you this. What if god answers all of our prayers? Yet, our time frame is all whacked and it takes a hundred year's to answer them?

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 150

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 6:22:14 PM

Lordandmaster

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I guess you haven't been following the thread from the beginning, because we've already established that it's not possible to live anywhere on earth without the threat of earthquakes and volcanoes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

But let's all remember one thing. For the most part we know where most of these natural disasters occur. We know the areas of tornedos, earthquaks, hurricanes, floods, land slides, fires, and such are most pobable to happen. Yet ppl still stay in these environments. Cali, Florida, Oklahoma, along the River. So wake up people and get a clue. When you know where the danger is, why do you still live there? Is it still Gods fault when you are already aware of the dangers? Let's look at all the people who live right under volcanoes and Mt St Helens. Whoe's fault is it for dyeing on that one?

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 151

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 6:30:10 PM

sub4hire

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ALM you're going by your definitions and the definitions society has put on things. That doesn't make them right.
Just saying...what if we all are wrong? These thoughts go through my head from time to time.

Our definitions of good may not be the same as his.
They may be, they may not be. I certainly don't know but I do ponder it from time to time.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 152

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 6:51:16 PM

perverseangelic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

How do you know what we percieve good to be is actually good? Not to go the philosophical route because I hate people who do that. Although in this conversation it has its merits.

See, but that opens up a whole can o' philosophy that we haven't even gotten to.

How do we know dead is dead? How do we know pleasure isn't -actually- pain?

Owch.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 153

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 7:27:13 PM

Lordandmaster

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We certainly could be, but I don't believe we are wrong about certain very basic things. So yes, I believe certain things too. At any rate, I don't see how the fact that we might be wrong about the way we perceive the universe suggests the likelihood that some god created it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

Just saying...what if we all are wrong? These thoughts go through my head from time to time.

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 154

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 9:50:27 PM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
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Just two interesting quotes...

“Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus, Greek Philosopher

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 155

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 10:16:06 PM

knees2you

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quote:

“Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus, Greek Philosopher

George Washington's Visions / Prophecies

http://www.crystalinks.com/gw.html

The Devil is not allowed to do anything without Gods approval.
Who keeps You inline, other then a worldly figure.
Who knows maybe we could have evolved from apes also.

Back in Biblical times God came in many ways sent Angels
and people still did not Recieve, or Believe.

There finding more and more evidence of a Higher Power everyday.
You had to come from someone,

not something.

Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to MadameDahlia)

Post #: 156

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 10:26:00 PM

FangsNfeet

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Well LAM,

let's look as some things that happen after bad things happen.

When the Titanic Sunk one very wealthy person died leaving his inherentence to 3 people.
One person built the Empire State Building, the second built a huge clothing retail store, and the third started CBS.

At anyrate, let's look at Tsunami results. Tragic yes but it ended up bringing people together. Also, certain sex feind scandleist got caught trying to take advantage of the situation and ended up where they can't make any more kidy porn. We weed out the Good and the Evil when such tragadies occur. It's where caring an compassion come in to play. As humans we are all vulnerable and sometimes need to be reminded that life isn't to be taken for granted. Events happen because they happen. Maybe there's a purpose and maybe there's not. Either way, it is important to the Human race survival that people die. Immortality would be the end of our race. If there is a GOD, then life on earth is just apart of his journey for us. Under most Christianity beliefs, Bad things happen as test and toughening us up as well as being a lesson for some. Tragic events are made to be apart of life. It's not easy being GOD. It dosen't come down to what's good or bad but what needs to be done. After all, the phrase "Doing bad things in the name of Good" didn't just come out of thin air.

This earth is an ever evolving and reforming planet. The core, platelets, rotations around the sun, and such are always in motion. It's designed so that nothing can nor will last forever. Every rock breaks down to sand. Lava melts everthing and recombinds it with other materails to make new and different rocks. Mountains fall for new ones to emerge. Oceans cover lands to bath them and restart a new. We are living organisims that are in the middle of it all and are just going to have to put up with it and overcome the adversity. If God dosn't give us challange, the we would all get bored and cease to care.

In this discussion are you giving us your oppinion or telling us your hatred about the Christian / Jewish GOD? I may be reading your post wrong but you seem to be taking many statements in this thread very personal and are replying on more emotion than acctuall debate. Perhaps God may be a little more evil or selfish than we would all like to think. After all, God dosn't want us to build a Tower of Babel. He gives us these diversities to prevent or atleast post pone the Human Race of becoming a God itself.

< Message edited by FangsNfeet -- 7/21/2005 10:27:43 PM >

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 157

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 10:38:39 PM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

There finding more and more evidence of a Higher Power everyday.
You had to come from someone, not something.

Please show me this evidence (studies, etc.) Please do not quote scripture, as this is not sufficient.

And as for coming from something or someone... I believe in the theories of evolution. I came from something (single celled organisms) regardless of how or why those 'somethings' were here to evolve.

Whether a god, the God, a Goddess and her wild turkey or a bunch of aliens stuck the initial single celled organisms on this planet is still up in the air for me. It's possible. I'm still waiting for it to be tangible evidence, proved to be true time and time again in scientific studies.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 158

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 10:56:39 PM

imtempting

Posts: 1280
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quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

The Devil is not allowed to do anything without Gods approval.

In that case God is Evil. God is the real demon. God is the puppet master. What a great God......

quote:

Back in Biblical times God came in many ways sent Angels
and people still did not Recieve, or Believe.

Why did he stop?

quote:

There finding more and more evidence of a Higher Power everyday.
You had to come from someone, not something.

quote:

MadameDahlia
And as for coming from something or someone... I believe in the theories of evolution. I came from something (single celled organisms) regardless of how or why those 'somethings' were here to evolve.

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 159

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 10:57:07 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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I thought I've been pretty clear about my opinion in this thread, but since it obviously hasn't gotten through, I may as well repeat it.

I believe one of the following must be true:

1. God is not good.
2. God is good, but cannot do better.
3. God does not exist.

In fact, I believe No. 3. I don't hate or love God because I don't believe there is a God. I think it's telling that theists often try to find some kind of moral or emotional defect in atheists; it's as though they cannot imagine a sane and content individual who does not believe in God. But I do believe, as I've been saying, that if there IS an omnipotent God (and I don't think there is), that God cannot be called good.

I'll add one other belief, as long as I'm being asked to reveal my beliefs: the familiar human justifications for the omnipotent and omnibenevolent God are based on specious reasoning and have caused more misery and bloodshed than any other human invention in history. Good things can come out of a nuclear disaster, Fangs. That doesn't mean nuclear disasters are good.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

In this discussion are you giving us your oppinion or telling us your hatred about the Christian / Jewish GOD? I may be reading your post wrong but you seem to be taking many statements in this thread very personal and are replying on more emotion than acctuall debate. Perhaps God may be a little more evil or selfish than we would all like to think. After all, God dosn't want us to build a Tower of Babel. He gives us these diversities to prevent or atleast post pone the Human Race of becoming a God itself.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 160

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