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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/19/2005 9:01:07 PM

domtimothy46176

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quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
The disciples of Jesus were hunted down and killed by the Jewish religous leaders at every opportunity.

It just seems like a cult to me. (I dont mean to offend) Look at cults and it is basically like Jesus. You have a divine leader that is all knowing, all seeing. You have the right hand men who has seen the proove of the leader. Then the followers who beleave because of whats being said is what they are wanting to hear.

Back in the days of Jesus they were going against the Religion of the time. Also making civil un-rest and going against the laws of the land. They were criminals.

quote:

The easy way out would have been to refute the works and teachings of Jesus, rather than insisting on their veracity. Who would knowingly die defending a lie? It seems illogical to me.

People die to protect a lie.

Timothy

Define cult. What religion can't be classified a cult by those who believe otherwise?

Do people die defending lies? I can't fathom the willingness to sacrifice one's life in defense of something one knows to be false, but that's just me. I might be willing to die for something I believed in, but not something I knew was untrue. I'm willing to accept that while I've studies a wide range of subjects I may have missed something. Care to share the specifics?
Timothy

(in reply to imtempting)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/19/2005 9:09:00 PM

domtimothy46176

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

This is exactly the stage that makes no sense to me. Why did God create an originally perfect universe if it was going to be fucked up? How did humans succeed in fucking up God's perfect creation? And why should innocents today suffer because of it?

It all sounds horribly unjust to me. I'd really rather believe in nothing than believe in a God who is such an asshole. Of course, I don't choose to believe and disbelieve something on the basis of whether I like it. I believe on the basis of what I see and think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

Perfect world is transformed into a world where man is challenged throughout his life by nature and evil and other men.

I dunno either. One would think an all-knowing God would know that Lucifer would stage a revolt, would know that man would yield to temptation and would just chuck the whole idea. I also think it would be more efficient to have simply erased the mistakes. I completely understand your distaste for the whole state of affairs. It doesn't make sense within my finite understanding.
Timothy

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 1:51:56 AM

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quote:

This makes me wonder. I thought God forgives everyone so therefore how can one be condemmed? How can one go to hell?

Also people dont beleive these Priest that say they can heal the sick and heal disabled people as fakes and people making money. They do set ups etc to dis-proove them which prooves them as fakes. Why do people belief Jesus could do it?? when back in the times of Jesus it would of been easier to pull off....

imtempting -

Please forgive me jumping in here - ignore it if you wish - I know your question was addressed to Timothy, but I just wanted to add my perspective.

In my understand, like Timothy, it's about humility. God forgives the humble and those who ask for forgiveness with a true and open heart, and those who realise their imperfections. I don't believe God forgives everyone, but he does have the ability to forgive everyone, should they choose to accept humility over selfishness.

As for the healers and movers - the key here is that they claim that they themselves are able to heal. That is IMO - total falicy. God heals - not them. Any priest, follower or person who claims to have the power to heal is not showing humility at all. God heals - and he heals through others - but it's not their power, not their making. Only God. Jesus on the other hand, was God - and so His claim is alot different to those in modern day world.

I can 'claim' to have been healed - and you can choose to accept that it was medical or my body healing itself - although the doctors cannot account for it and I will always be just viewed by those that don't believe as just 'one of those strange occurances that happen' But I felt God heal me - I knew I was the moment it happened. And yes, hand were laid on - but that person was not doing it because they could heal, but because God used them. And no - I didn't become a christian because of my healing, I had already been one for many years, so it wasn't a reason for my conversion.

Any christian working through Gods gifts in it's purest sense will do so with humility and with conviction. No adverts, no money involved, no commitments and no comeback. Because the gift of healing isn't theres to give - it's the love of God.

Love and Blessings

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to imtempting)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 2:34:34 AM

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A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

That was from google defination now for oxfords.

noun 1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. 3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.

Id like you to look at point 2.
At the time of the Romans this was Christianty. That is why I do not belief in Jesus. Everything to me that I have read leads to a cult.

Do you believe Scientology is a proper religion or a false religion?

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 6:08:13 AM

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[quote]Do you believe Scientology is a proper religion or a false religion? [/quote]

"The Church of Scientology is a vicious and dangerous cult that masquerades as a religion. Its purpose is to make money. It practices a variety of mind-control techniques on people lured into its midst to gain control over their money and their lives. Its aim is to take from them every penny that they have and can ever borrow and to also enslave them to further its wicked ends.

It was started in the 1950s by a science fiction writer named L. Ron Hubbard in fulfilment to his declared aim to start a religion to make money. It is an offshoot to a method of psychotherapy he concocted from various sources which he named "Dianetics". Dianetics is a form of regression therapy. It was then further expanded to appear more like a religion in order to enjoy tax benefits. He called it "Scientology".

Scientology is a confused concoction of crackpot, dangerously applied psychotherapy, oversimplified, idiotic and inapplicable rules and ideas and science-fiction drivel that is presented to its members (at the "advanced" levels) as profound spiritual truth. "

http://www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html

"January 22, 2004

Tom Cruise: Psychiatry Should Be Outlawed
You may already know that Tom Cruise is a member of Scientology, the science fiction fan club that tries to act like a religion, but lately he has been pushing Scientology orthodoxy pretty hard.

iAfrica reports:

The ardent Scientologist has now weighed in on the subject of counselling. “I think it's an utter waste of time. There's nothing scientific about it,” he fulminates. "Communication is a good thing, but I think people get more mentally out of having a good meal or going for a walk. I think psychiatry should be outlawed.”

Rick Ross makes an interesting observation:

[Tom Cruise] knows the story of an evil galactic overlord named Xenu who is supposedly responsible for the human condition. Some might observe that anyone who would swallow this story must be “crazy,” or maybe just a bit “brainwashed.”

I don't know about being "brainwashed," but it is quite arguable that "there's nothing scientific about" his religious fantasies. Arguable? No, it's more than arguable that this Scientology nonsense is not only unscientific, but it's probably a whole lot less scientific than psychiatry - a profession which itself has it's own share of problems. "

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/058731.htm

i am a Catholic..so we lay claim to being the One True Church. Snobbish, but not cultish. i am a bit suspicious of religions whose founders are within living memory, but i am not entitled to that bias.

i think the "gold standard" is the effect the religion has on its members. If they begin donating more than they can afford; refusing medical attention; quitting their jobs to live in a commune..these things would tend to make me designate a religion as a cult. Also, if the well-known methods of brain-washing were used on members and recruiting was aggressive..that too would cause me to consider a religion as a cult.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 7/20/2005 6:12:28 AM >

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(in reply to imtempting)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 7:03:48 AM

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quote:

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

That was from google defination now for oxfords.

noun 1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. 3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.

Id like you to look at point 2.
At the time of the Romans this was Christianty. That is why I do not belief in Jesus. Everything to me that I have read leads to a cult.

Do you believe Scientology is a proper religion or a false religion?

Imtempting -

A cult is defined in all the ways as above - a cult is simply a selection of people who follow a belief, that is not held by everyone - or - the majority of society. So, on an individual basis - there are many things you may deem a cult. In otherwords, if you think that something is unorthodox for you, then it is a cult.

quote:

Id like you to look at point 2.
At the time of the Romans this was Christianty.

In essence - the Romans were (during invasion) a cult as well as christianity. Both were regard as strange by the majority, both 'imposing ideas'(although it would be argued that christianity does not impose, but it is an advocate of free will) on others and both worshiping an authority figure.

scientology - the white house - even the National Organisation for Womens Rights - All of these can be considered a cult. It's a word used to justify a dislike in something that doesn't sit well with an individual. Even BDSM can be viewed as a cult - what do you think about that?

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to imtempting)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 8:51:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Even BDSM can be viewed as a cult - what do you think about that?

Peace and Love[/center][/size][/font]

I dont go to people saying belive in this or you will go to hell. Or who is a leader of Bdsm? God hmm no. A priest hmmm no. Noone is a leader. Noone has defined rules we must follow in Bdsm.

quote:

although it would be argued that christianity does not impose, but it is an advocate of free will

Christianity has killed many in its life because people has not come to it.

quote:

i am a bit suspicious of religions whose founders are within living memory ( From Pink Pleasures

What is the differance between beliving someone today and beliving someone from over 2000 years ago?

The ark of the covent where is it? Why does the Vatican not release whats in the sacred scrolls?

< Message edited by imtempting -- 7/20/2005 8:54:00 AM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 10:09:19 AM

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quote:

I dont go to people saying belive in this or you will go to hell. Or who is a leader of Bdsm? God hmm no. A priest hmmm no. Noone is a leader. Noone has defined rules we must follow in Bdsm.

It could be argued that the Dominant is the 'God' - but the reality is that to some people - BDSM is a religon - I have heard that claim b people many times - in which case - BDSM is a cult. It has all the factors for some people. And as much as you might not wish to see it, the facts are clearly there - if you want to see it - People have killed for BDSM - people have died - every single community could be designated a cult if someone wishes to - that's my point. The word cult is a scare word - a word to use when people don't understand something and have no desire to - it's no different IMO to using the words 'true' 'real' or 'gift of'. The word cult is given to give something percieved as being without body, form and substance, so it can be seen, generalised and filed - so that one can then protect oneself from being infested by it. What is a fetish? - the word is closely linked with 'cult'. There are defined rules in BDSM - those are the rules and limits and boundries set up between you and whoever you decide to work with - BDSM, to some people is a cult.

I have a sugestion(IMO) that you may be mixing the word cult up with sect - that may be closer to what I believe you might be hinting at. But even then, christianity doesn't come close. Certain sections of the christian community maybe - but not as a whole. Same for BDSM - or any other 'cult'.

quote:

Christianity has killed many in its life because people has not come to it.

No - man has killed - not christianity. You and anyone else can use religion as an excuse. The Romans(which was the initial point) murdered and killed in the name of their 'God'. Muslim extremists - in fact there is probably one well known religion who has not killed(to my knowledge) and that is buddism. The serb/croatia conflict was many deaths - the IRA- all these extremsits will kill and use religion as an excuse to target the weak and to try to absolve themselves from guilt. But it just don't work like that.

quote:

The ark of the covent where is it? Why does the Vatican not release whats in the sacred scrolls?

No idea - why does it matter? Only matters if they rebuild the temple. If you want to 'see' it to make some sort of proof - then you would be fooling yourself. Nothing will convince you until you are ready to accept, not what you assume, not what anyone can teach, not even what you may physically 'see' with your eyes - but what may be possible.

As for the scrolls - you will have to get a RC to answer that.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to imtempting)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 10:57:18 AM

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quote:

No - man has killed - not christianity. You and anyone else can use religion as an excuse. The Romans(which was the initial point) murdered and killed in the name of their 'God'. Muslim extremists - in fact there is probably one well known religion who has not killed(to my knowledge) and that is buddism.

~Angel,
This is the core of the problem. You have stated it very succinctly, without religion as an "excuse" there would be less killing. Excluding the consideration of a god's existence, you are right. It's not any deity causing the problem it's the religion created around the possibility of god's existence that is used as an excuse and causes man to inflict death and suffering on his fellow man. Logic would dictate that we should eliminate the excuse.

I don't agree that religion is only used as to "target the weak". Muslim's claim they use terrorism against civilians because they are weak and can not fight on a equal footing military soldier versus military soldier.

If there was a "one true religion" I think it would be Buddhism. A "radical" Buddhist sacrifices himself because to destroy any other life would be against his dogma. I am not well versed on the Buddhist religion, but I believe their god is "life". If I didn't like to eat meat so much, and enjoy wearing leather I would maybe consider it. I think their believe system has merit. From a naive and a viewpoint of ignorance regarding the details of their religion, Buddhism doesn't seem to involve any hypocrisy. I don't know any other religion that can make that claim.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 12:11:58 PM

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quote:

~Angel,
This is the core of the problem. You have stated it very succinctly, without religion as an "excuse" there would be less killing. Excluding the consideration of a god's existence, you are right. It's not any deity causing the problem it's the religion created around the possibility of god's existence that is used as an excuse and causes man to inflict death and suffering on his fellow man. Logic would dictate that we should eliminate the excuse.

Merc, I am sorry if you misunderstood me, my thought wasn't that without religion their would be less war - because I believe that, even without religion, man will kill. Man would just find another excuse, another reason... there will not be less war, just a different excuse.

quote:

If there was a "one true religion" I think it would be Buddhism. A "radical" Buddhist sacrifices himself because to destroy any other life would be against his dogma. I am not well versed on the Buddhist religion, but I believe their god is "life". If I didn't like to eat meat so much, and enjoy wearing leather I would maybe consider it. I think their believe system has merit. From a naive and a viewpoint of ignorance regarding the details of their religion, Buddhism doesn't seem to involve any hypocrisy. I don't know any other religion that can make that claim.

Buddism is a beautiful and just concept of self realisation and the acceptance that we are responsible. I agree with you, I truely believe that Buddism taken as a concept is void of hypocrasy. Enlightenment is the only way to any kind of 'salvation' - in truth, buddism and it's thoughts, is exactly (IMO) how a christian should approach God. I believe in God, yet I guess, I have buddist leanings and the lessons taught in buddism are the most poinant and complete a person could ever read... I completely recommend anyone to examine the teachings.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 1:54:16 PM

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quote:

i cannot explain all that happens in the world, or answer all the questions that have been asked on this thread. However, i do know God exisits; that there is life after death; that we will be judged for our sins; that God loves us; and that He answers prayers.

i have felt His arms around me; His breath on my neck; His hand on my shoulder. i could never deny His existence after such experiences. i suppose some would call them "mystical"; others would call them "wish-fulfillment". i could not care less; i know in my heart what happened.

Some things in this life cannot be endured without God's help. That fact is undeniable. Y/you may not have prayed once in Y/your life, but that does not mean God deserted Y/you.

pinkpleasures

This says it all~

Thank You so much pinkpleasures~

Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to pinkpleasures)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 6:59:23 PM

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What are the sacred scrolls? i have never heard of them...going to dogpile, LOL.

http://www.tehutionline.com/newpage4.htm

Can't make heads or tails of this site.

http://www.sacredscrolls.net/

A site where Jews can buy the Torah and other holy books.

metaphysical research is found on sacred scrolls referenced at this web site:

http://www.tehutionline.com/

Now; i tried "vatican sacred scrolls" and "catholic sacred scrolls" and came up with nothing. dogpile is the best search engine; so i'm in the dark.

What are these sacred scrolls the Vatican holds? Would really like to know.

pinkpleasures

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RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 7:54:52 PM

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I have read this entire thread and am left wondering something. For the people who do not believe in God: Do you believe that a man walked on the moon?

If your answer is yes, why do you believe that?

It probably sounds like I am trying to convert people. I am not. I am sincerely wondering.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 8:01:33 PM

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I believe it because there is lots of empirical evidence for it. A famous audio tape, for one thing. Lots of video. In view of all the evidence, it is much more likely to be true than to be false. It also does not violate any of my fundamental epistemological beliefs to draw the inference that a man walked on the moon.

It would violate all kinds of epistemological beliefs to draw the inference that God created the universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Do you believe that a man walked on the moon?

If your answer is yes, why do you believe that?

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 9:35:22 PM

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quote:

If your answer is yes, why do you believe that?

Yes - What L&M said.

My original hypothesis was to address the problem that the existence of a deity would contradict the powers associated with a deity. Based on the replies I'm even more convinced. But I retain my envy of those who just believe and don't need any proof.

But I will take your concept to a dichotomy I believe I've expressed before; I've never seen an alien but believe there is life on other planets. Strange huh, that I have no problem with that belief? Maybe it's because belief in aliens was never a cause to kill anyone.

(in reply to kisshou)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/20/2005 9:55:24 PM

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Now you and I are totally in agreement. There also happens to be good presumptive evidence for life on other planets, but we'll know the answer to that one definitively within a generation or two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I've never seen an alien but believe there is life on other planets. Strange huh, that I have no problem with that belief? Maybe it's because belief in aliens was never a cause to kill anyone.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 1:01:43 AM

domtimothy46176

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My point is that any religion can be considered a cult by those who disagree with its tenets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

That was from google defination now for oxfords.

noun 1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. 3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.

Id like you to look at point 2.
At the time of the Romans this was Christianty. That is why I do not belief in Jesus. Everything to me that I have read leads to a cult.

Do you believe Scientology is a proper religion or a false religion?

(in reply to imtempting)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 2:21:54 AM

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LaM & Merc

I am not sure about in the usa - but in the UK and in Aus I know there were programmes broadcast that cast doubt over the moon landings - ok - call it conspiricy(sp ?) theories, but they were made by reputable sources - the lastest one in the UK was ummm about 8 months ago?

Now whether you believe the tapes - or believe that it's conspiricy - is not the point. The point is you believe in it and you believe it possible - why? Because of hearesay and what other people have taught and what you are open to hear, what you are wishing to understand. Not because you have 'walked on the moon' yourself.

You are assuming that christians believe in God and creation, just because of a few words in a book. Or that all spiritual peoples, be they muslim, jew, wiccan, buddist etc... is learnt and indoctrinated or just comes from a few, considerably short texts that you cannot verify personally. Not all spiritual people are like that - they have' walked on the moon' in some way or another, understandable to them. So although it may make no sense to you or to the finite mind, those that wish to grasp the infinite are aware that anything is possible...

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 11:08:27 AM

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quote:

I am not sure about in the usa - but in the UK and in Aus I know there were programmes broadcast that cast doubt over the moon landings - ok - call it conspiricy(sp ?) theories, but they were made by reputable sources - the lastest one in the UK was ummm about 8 months ago?

~Angel,
I've seen all that have been on TV here in the US. I'm actually a conspiracy "junkie". After another thread pointing out the the US conspiracy concerning 9/11 I spent more hours and days than I want to think about trying to ascertain the validity. Unlike some, I welcome debate and specifically seek out any "evidence" contrary to what I believe. Without considering contrary positions you tend to stagnate. Surrounding yourself with information and only people in agreement with you results in a boor. You don't have to be in agreement with someone across the board to be a friend. In fact on subject of religion, beth and I couldn't be further apart. But I digress...

Regarding the moon landing, here in the US there was actually a "counter-conspiracy" program. They re-created all the alleged evidence pointing to the flight never happening. It was pretty convincing. But it's more the negative confirmations that make the case for a landing. For instance, I think the USSR would have been the first to point out any fraud. They monitored the broadcasts from the moon direct and any relay would have been obvious.

So, in my opinion, there is too much evidence that we indeed landed men on the moon. You don't have a need for blind faith. The story isn't just documented ancient legend handed down verbally until a form of written language was invented.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: "Acts of God" Riddle - 7/21/2005 1:13:05 PM

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Sure Merc - I am not denying there is written documentation - but you still didn't do it yoúrself and until you do - it is just a story.

I believe it is possible to visit the moon - but belief and actual experience are two different things entirely.

(and don't you just love conspiricy theory?)

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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