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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:15:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: unownedkitty

i think the word murder comes into it when the baby reaches a certain age and for some people it may be sensitive like for me its purely personal why i think 22 weeks is murder as i gave birth and watched my child die so maybe when i read things like this i should take deep breath breath and think out side of my box??

It's extremely difficult to go through that trauma and then be able to "think outside of the box" regarding something near and dear to our hearts. I watched my second child nearly die 4 times before she ever left the delivery room, so I honestly feel some of the pain you have regarding the death of your child. I was fortunate. She lived and in a little over a month now, will be celebrating her 20th birthday. So, I certainly can't say I KNOW how you feel.

But I think the conversation here has made it abundantly clear that people do NOT wait for the potential for viability before calling it murder.

Breathing is good. So is being able to take a step back and try to understand both sides of the fence. I have strong opinions against late term abortions. I mean seriously, even taking into consideration a man's right, a woman's choice and all that, in my mind, no one can claim they didn't have enough time to decide before viability was reached. But the rest? I don't walk in anyone's shoes so I can't decide for them.

juliet

(in reply to unownedkitty)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:16:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
quote:

ORIGINAL: unownedkitty

for the people for abortions have you thought about the baby? or is all the thought with the mother?

......to be honest my sympathy is almost wholly with the woman. Because to not do so is a slippery slope which has at its end the right of the state to tell us what to do with our own bodies.

But isn't it the state only telling us we can't destroy the body of another? That's nothing new.

As a side note, I really.. am phobic.. of "slippery slope" arguments. As long as we go with what's right, and don't deviate from that, we're fine. But when we start concerning ourselves with manipulating judgement, such as ignoring what's right via arguing that we won't be compotent to chose what's right in the future, and therefore should do what's wrong now.. well, we pretty much shoot ourselves in the foot right away, don't we?

Not that I don't empathize with your point, just.. that's why I avoid "slippery slope" arguments.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:16:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

And no woman will ever know the sex drive that I, as a 21-year old male, have. I don't care how much women get it later in life; it just doesn't compare biologically. You can't possibly understand the feelings I have. So don't you dare tell me rape is wrong. You couldn't possibly understand.

This is as far as I could manage reading this thread. You have got to be freaking kidding me CuriousLord.Rape is not wrong? I can't help but wonder what you would say if some guy smacked you around, threatened your life. Overpowered you. Tears your jeans down your legs. Literally rips your underwear off of your body. Then he spreads your asscheeks open and rams his cock into your body.It's a good thing YOU could never conceive from this. Ugh that is it for this thread and me.

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RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:17:10 PM

ChicagoSwitchMal

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it interest me how pro-lifers call pro-choicer's "for abortion". I don't think anyone is "for abortion" - they're for a woman's right to choose and quite often they choose to HAVE the baby. No one calls pro-lifers "Pro-non-choice" which is really their agenda. "I guess pro-life seems nicer. I mean who would fight on their side in a "pro-choice" vs. "pro-no-choice" debate?

(in reply to hermione83)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:18:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: julietsierra

quote:

ORIGINAL: unownedkitty

i think the word murder comes into it when the baby reaches a certain age and for some people it may be sensitive like for me its purely personal why i think 22 weeks is murder as i gave birth and watched my child die so maybe when i read things like this i should take deep breath breath and think out side of my box??

It's extremely difficult to go through that trauma and then be able to "think outside of the box" regarding something near and dear to our hearts. I watched my second child nearly die 4 times before she ever left the delivery room, so I honestly feel some of the pain you have regarding the death of your child. I was fortunate. She lived and in a little over a month now, will be celebrating her 20th birthday. So, I certainly can't say I KNOW how you feel.

But I think the conversation here has made it abundantly clear that people do NOT wait for the potential for viability before calling it murder.

Breathing is good. So is being able to take a step back and try to understand both sides of the fence. I have strong opinions against late term abortions. I mean seriously, even taking into consideration a man's right, a woman's choice and all that, in my mind, no one can claim they didn't have enough time to decide before viability was reached. But the rest? I don't walk in anyone's shoes so I can't decide for them.

juliet

you have spoke a lot of sense in that post,,,, btw i am glad your daughter is ok x

(in reply to julietsierra)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:18:46 PM

ChicagoSwitchMal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

And no woman will ever know the sex drive that I, as a 21-year old male, have. I don't care how much women get it later in life; it just doesn't compare biologically. You can't possibly understand the feelings I have. So don't you dare tell me rape is wrong. You couldn't possibly understand.

This is as far as I could manage reading this thread. You have got to be freaking kidding me CuriousLord.Rape is not wrong? I can't help but wonder what you would say if some guy smacked you around, threatened your life. Overpowered you. Tears your jeans down your legs. Literally rips your underwear off of your body. Then he spreads your asscheeks open and rams his cock into your body.It's a good thing YOU could never conceive from this. Ugh that is it for this thread and me.

I think kyou just excited half the membes of this forum. OKay - bad joke. Going to my corner.

(in reply to camille65)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:22:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
And no woman will ever know the sex drive that I, as a 21-year old male, have. I don't care how much women get it later in life; it just doesn't compare biologically. You can't possibly understand the feelings I have. So don't you dare tell me rape is wrong. You couldn't possibly understand.

This is as far as I could manage reading this thread. You have got to be freaking kidding me CuriousLord.Rape is not wrong? I can't help but wonder what you would say if some guy smacked you around, threatened your life. Overpowered you. Tears your jeans down your legs. Literally rips your underwear off of your body. Then he spreads your asscheeks open and rams his cock into your body.It's a good thing YOU could never conceive from this. Ugh that is it for this thread and me.

Erm.. I thought that was pretty oblivously sarcasm. I was a bit tired of being told, "You're a guy, you can't understand."

You see,
"And no woman will ever know the sex drive that I, as a 21-year old male, have. I don't care how much women get it later in life; it just doesn't compare biologically. You can't possibly understand the feelings I have.So don't you dare tell me that rape is wrong. You couldn't possibly understand."
was a parallel to..
"And no man will ever know the hardships of pregnancy. You can't possibly understand the feelings I have. So don't you dare tell me abortion is wrong. You couldn't possibly understand."

You see, my argument was rather.. disgusting. I was hoping to show the women making this sexist argument just how disgusting it was to a man. This was the closest analogy I could think of, and I think it's a pretty fair one. I'd be happy to rewrite it if you can think of another.

Edit: I hope the italics make it easier to read.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/7/2007 3:23:09 PM >

(in reply to camille65)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:23:21 PM

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you do...i was ranting at people who "discover" they are pregnant after the first trimester and then decide to have an abortion because its inconvinient...and then the baby is never given a chance to live because they "humanely kill it" by crushing its skull....its sickening....

i am pro-life...btw...my rant was extremely sarcastic and i was not intending to get into this argument...

btw...pro-life, does not mean i think a mother should die so that her child should live....or that a 12 year old should give birth because she was raped..yes, in those cases, i think they should be given a choice....on the opposite end....your second abortion thats not an extreme case, i think you should be sterallized....

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(in reply to unownedkitty)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:24:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Level those statistics assume that rape/incest victims report their reasons for an abortion when getting it. In my experience having worked with them and domestic violence victims for quite some time, this is rarely the case. However, I'm sure even with accurate statistics, the numbers would still show that most abortions are convience based.

The problem with this topic is that everyone on either side feels very strongly about their viewpoint and that it is absolutely THE right one. I have found in life that this is rarely the case. Religious based objections that judge and condemn seem contradictory to me.

As Juliet's story points out, being there, having to face the reality of it is much different than touting statistics and quoting religion. As I pointed out earlier, I am pro-choice because of my ongoing continual work with the families in the trenches that deal with these everyday issues rather than mere words, however, I would not condemn or insult someone that had a different view than mine. Honestly neither should any of you.
l

I'm going to assume that you're not specifically claiming that I've condemned or insulted anyone, laurell. I've spent considerable time on several abortion threads here, and I've been pretty good about trying to get my points and beliefs across, without being rude.

Also, I'm quite aware that abortion is a painful and often tragic topic; I don't look down my nose at those that have chosen to abort, except perhaps at those relatively few that do see it as "no big deal".

Not at all Level. My comment to you was about the statistics only. Sorry for the confusion.
l

(in reply to Level)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:25:41 PM

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I've delivered babies for twenty five years as a midwife. Needless to say, until you are the one that is pregnant, it is useless to try to tell someone else what to do with their body.

When I have worked at clinics, I've seen just as many women walk out crying because they weren't pregnant as those that were pregnant.

Pregnancy and birth control are complicated, personal issues. I've seen families that used abortion as a form of birth control and families that never used any form of birth control at all. As long as the baby I am delivering is cared for and wanted, I've stopped worrying about about that family's personal decisions.

Just as people on this site constantly talk about everyone's d/s is different and there is no one right or wrong way--the path every person takes in their decisions about reproduction is just as complicated.

Yes, there are men who are devastated by the abortion of their child, just as there are grandmothers and relatives who mourn. But, it is the woman who takes on the risk of the pregnancy and in the end, she is the only person who gives birth to that child. Thus, she is the one that makes the major decision and carries the weight and the responsibility on her shoulders. All of life is a process and none of it is easy.

I wait for the day when all babies are wanted, all mothers are supported and all fathers are willing to step up to the plate and help raise their child. Until then,

Blessings and be well,

(in reply to unownedkitty)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:26:20 PM

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quote:

It's none of their business. My view is that people who feel abortion is wrong should definitely not have abortions. They should not have the right to force their opinion...and that's all it is, an opinion...on those who believe differently.

I think it's less thinking out of the box to assume that "a bunch of cells" isn't human. People can easily shut their eyes to a crime. You could hear the woman next door getting beaten day after day, and do nothing. Or you could do something to stop it. I'm sorry, is someone being arrested and taken out of society for murder, having their rights taken away by someone? Yes, and that's how it should be. They just took the right to live away from the person they killed. The law apparently takes upon itself to force people to wear seatbelts to force people to take care of themselves, and yet it's wrong to try to force someone to not hurt *someone else*? The latter is where personal rights and freedoms should always stop. It’s the essence and point of law and governments, IMHO. And even if you for some reason can't see it as "human" - why is *that* the standard? People once thought people of other skin colors weren't human. They are, but I think what makes us "human" is the ability to look at other species, etc, and take care of them. We have this intelligence to be the caretakers of this planet, and all in it. That is why we are lucky enough to be at the top of the food chain. Compassion and love, should be first, and should be extended to all, no matter what its name or type.

One more thing, the living outside it's mother argument disgusts me. You mean the fact that my dog couldn't survive in the wild by itself (or, say, a 5 year old, or a disabled 30 year old living with his mom forever...) means I have the right to do what I want to with it? Kill it? Or that doctors should be able to do experimentations on someone in a vegetative state, thinking that they can't feel it and their dignity doesn't matter? Humanity means you take care of those WEAKER THAN YOU, and you don't value the strong above that of the weak.

< Message edited by hermione83 -- 10/7/2007 3:33:04 PM >

(in reply to unownedkitty)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:27:04 PM

Level

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No problem!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to laurell3)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:29:50 PM

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This is a highly personal debate and I think the decision is best taken by the individuals involved rather than lawmakers. No one here can agree so why would anyone expect lawmakers to get it right?

A case comes to mind recently where a woman from Ireland had a foetus diagnosed with some disease. In Ireland someone took the decision that she shouldn’t be able to leave for the UK and have an abortion. I personally can’t understand how people can interfere with the lives of others like this and take moral standpoints having never experienced such things themselves.

Law is black and white and any law which is grey is flawed. So you can change the law to suit one group of people but it will be applied to every situation and take no account as to legitimate reasons for an abortion taking place. The last thing people in emotional agony need is the law persecuting them.

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(in reply to unownedkitty)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:34:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

This is a highly personal debate and I think the decision is best taken by the individuals involved rather than lawmakers. No one here can agree so why would anyone expect lawmakers to get it right?

A case comes to mind recently where a woman from Ireland had a foetus diagnosed with some disease. In Ireland someone took the decision that she shouldn’t be able to leave for the UK and have an abortion. I personally can’t understand how people can interfere with the lives of others like this and take moral standpoints having never experienced such things themselves.

Law is black and white and any law which is grey is flawed. So you can change the law to suit one group of people but it will be applied to every situation and take no account as to legitimate reasons for an abortion taking place. The last thing people in emotional agony need is the law persecuting them.

Unfortunately the areas where we have people that have such strong beliefs seems to be where the law is involved the most.
l

(in reply to FullCircle)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:35:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The last thing people in emotional agony need is the law persecuting them.

Pretty good reason not to break it, then, right? Sort of like the codepedent boyfriend who just lost his girlfriend of six years because she couldn't take it anymore. Psychologically, he's in absolute, obsessive, uncontrolable agony. (Such is the state of such loss to a codepedent.) But, if he kidnaps her, rapes her, or kills her (as codependents generally find loss to death much easier to deal with), he should still be prosecuted, right?

Just because someone really wants something doesn't make it right- even if that something is killing another to stave off some agony.

(in reply to FullCircle)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:36:52 PM

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Nice debate but they'll be another one next month, bye

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(in reply to laurell3)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:37:13 PM

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If a human can be kept alive, via medical procedure, then they are alive. Why is that hard to understand?

Those that want to say a very small mass of cells is a human being, then do not spill your seed on the ground because it is the same premise.

Remove the emotion, and think clearly.

Orion

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(in reply to FullCircle)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:37:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Nice debate but they'll be another one next month, bye

People learn, even if slowly. These do go somewhere, even if they're not all conclusions.

And, yeah, it's fun to have these debates. Peace.

(in reply to FullCircle)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:48:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Just because someone really wants something doesn't make it right- even if that something is killing another to stave off some agony.

The purpose of the law is to protect the majority from the views of the minority. Well that’s my take on things. The majority of people, I think, are still pro choice therefore this debate is a bit academic. I don’t know that’s an absolute hard fact but I do know if there was enough pro-life momentum the law wouldn’t be as it is now. I’m happy with the law as it is apart from the 22 weeks limit, that should be reduced in my opinion. It’s not easy to get an abortion either quite frankly because a doctor has to agree to it after assessing the woman’s mental state. Some people seem to think this is a rubberstamping procedure and abortions are like something you order from the supermarket. They should really get this idea out of their head as it has no basis in reality.

Anyway thanks and goodnight.

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: Abortion - 10/7/2007 3:49:45 PM

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Good night, FC

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to FullCircle)

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