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RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 11:20:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Bush has done for Capitalism, exactly what Marx did for Communism.

Maybe that's unfair.

Maybe the correct comparison is to Stalin...

Bush is not much in a the way of a capitalist, unfortunately. I don't know how that would relate to Stalin/communism though. I was pretty sure that whatever communism Stalin/Mao/Castro practiced/is practicing was pretty spot on on what it was meant to be like.

Our country's economy is more of a cross between Capitalism and Socialism, IMO. Not nearly the amount of socialism or regulation like you see in Europe or India, but still more than you see in a place like Taiwan.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 11:54:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

Italy has a large poplulation of communists and last time I was there i didn't see any death camps

Are you saying that Italy is a communist nation? *sits down with a bowl of popcorn*

This should be good.

(in reply to pinkme2)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 1:05:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

What? You deny that communism isn't around anymore? Who is the main financier of most peace rallies? The communists.

I dont believe I ever said it wasn't around, look at china. And sure the Russians had problems that was because of the Cold war and they where putting every thing they had in to Military Defence. The Chinese on the other hand are doing better than us right now. In fact Bush is borrowing money from them.

Yes, the millions of them still peddling bicycles, through thick brown air, earning a fraction of what most of us do, sure have it good.

Don't you all wish you lived in China??

I would say that things are improving over there, but better than America? No.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to joanus)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 1:27:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

I was pretty sure that whatever communism Stalin/Mao/Castro practiced/is practicing was pretty spot on on what it was meant to be like.

Our country's economy is more of a cross between Capitalism and Socialism, IMO. Not nearly the amount of socialism or regulation like you see in Europe or India, but still more than you see in a place like Taiwan.

..just a quickie as i roll past on the way to sweeping floors....lol......but i think most scholars wouldn't agree with you that Stalin et al practised communism as envisaged by Marx and Engels........however, i do agree that most civilised countries end up with some form of mixed economy, socialism and capitalism combined. Putting aside for a while our fellow posters of a more extreme bent i think most of argue about where to draw the line as opposed to whether or not a mixed economy is a good idea.

Now, back to the swiffer......oh, and ta for the links earlier, i promise to give them the attention they deserve later........

(in reply to pinkme2)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 1:35:00 PM

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LOL on the links......

phil, you thinking you might have to take a shit later and need some asswipe?

communists ---

WMD postings more like it.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 1:44:32 PM

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Capitalism suffers from a serious flaw – namely, that to work the people engaging in it must be people of good and honest character but communism has never worked and communism will never work because communism is fundamentally flawed in it’s very concept. It is premised on the false beliefs that something can be worth other than it really is and that people can be something other than they are. It denies human nature - believing, incorrectly, that human nature is "socially constructed" and can be remolded at will. This is why communism (and it’s half hearted step sister, socialism) must always resort to tyranny to achieve it’s aims.

If communism can work why has it been necessary for communists to murder nearly one hundred million people? Why are concentration camps and secret police necessary? Why do communist nations have to guard their borders to keep their own people in? Why, when the Berlin wall fell, did everyone in the east head west and not the other way around?

"They came. They saw. They went shopping."
– Graffiti written on the remains of the Berlin wall shortly after it’s fall.

I look forward to the day in Cuba when all the posters of that murdering terrorist, Che Guevara, are plastered over with Coca Cola ads.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 10/26/2007 1:49:00 PM >

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to pinkme2)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 1:52:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL on the links......

phil, you thinking you might have to take a shit later and need some asswipe?

communists ---

WMD postings more like it.

..ah Ron........have to read something before judging it........i'm only half way through so far.......

yours

Grand Old Duke of York

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 1:55:38 PM

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quote:

but i think most scholars wouldn't agree with you that Stalin et al practised communism as envisaged by Marx and Engels........

I wasn't aware that either Marx or Engels practiced communism in any form.

So I would default to the terminology chosen by those who actually ran a country for a while, such as Mao, Castro, and Stalin.

They will just have to do until 'Twue' communism comes along.

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 2:09:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

but i think most scholars wouldn't agree with you that Stalin et al practised communism as envisaged by Marx and Engels........

I wasn't aware that either Marx or Engels practiced communism in any form.

So I would default to the terminology chosen by those who actually ran a country for a while, such as Mao, Castro, and Stalin.

They will just have to do until 'Twue' communism comes along.

....sighs......i didn't say they practised communism, but they did envisage it in Das Kapital. Pink wrote of what communism was 'meant to be like'. It was originally meant to be like what Marx and Engels wrote. i don't suggest it turned out that way...and that is exactly the point i was making. In essence there really was a 'twue' communism, existing as a thought experiment......it never made the leap to the real world. However several totalitarian regimes hijacked the term for their own purposes.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 2:21:00 PM

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......back in the day Pink i used to be active in the UK's anti-nuclear movement. One of them single issue thingies. Something we used to bemoan as we supped our warm beer and stamped our feet to keep warm was how many other groups would tag along on our marches without really grasping what a single issue movement was.
The thing about such movements is that, in a sense, they are apolitical. i don't mean that they have no political dimension, rather that they are not the province of a single political party.
An example in modern times is, perhaps, abortion. There are republicans and democrats on both sides of the issue. What i took from the links you provided was not that the Communists in the US were the main force behind the peace rallies, rather that they were ubiquitous on them......but so were several other organisations including Veterans Organisations and Churches. It seems to me that the Communists in the US are jumping on a popular bandwagon, not creating or organising it. Just as similar organisations in the UK did to the anti-nuclear people back in the 70's.
There is clearly a range of opposition to the war in Iraq, ranging from those who see this specific war as an error to those who oppose all wars. To give credit/blame the Communists for the peace movement is to give them too much credit/blame. For instance, Popeye on these boards wants to end the war in Iraq.....and i'm fairly sure he aint a commie.........

(in reply to pinkme2)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 2:25:17 PM

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quote:

However several totalitarian regimes hijacked the term for their own purposes.

Just like 'democracy', and 'theocracy', and 'monarchy'....

All we ever have is the reality, not the idealized theory. And in reality, the counties ruled by Mao, et al. were communist/socialist.
The fact that a couple of upper middle class philosophers got the details wrong in their musings doesn't change that.

'See the smiley, become the smiley'.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 4:30:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......back in the day Pink i used to be active in the UK's anti-nuclear movement. One of them single issue thingies. Something we used to bemoan as we supped our warm beer and stamped our feet to keep warm was how many other groups would tag along on our marches without really grasping what a single issue movement was.
The thing about such movements is that, in a sense, they are apolitical. i don't mean that they have no political dimension, rather that they are not the province of a single political party.
An example in modern times is, perhaps, abortion. There are republicans and democrats on both sides of the issue. What i took from the links you provided was not that the Communists in the US were the main force behind the peace rallies, rather that they were ubiquitous on them......but so were several other organisations including Veterans Organisations and Churches. It seems to me that the Communists in the US are jumping on a popular bandwagon, not creating or organising it. Just as similar organisations in the UK did to the anti-nuclear people back in the 70's.
There is clearly a range of opposition to the war in Iraq, ranging from those who see this specific war as an error to those who oppose all wars. To give credit/blame the Communists for the peace movement is to give them too much credit/blame. For instance, Popeye on these boards wants to end the war in Iraq.....and i'm fairly sure he aint a commie.........

Well, I do understand what you mean. If they weren't actually organizing them, I'd be in complete agreement. But several of the groups I linked to, including ANSWER and Peace and Justice, actually ORGANIZE people, including those greenies, churches or veterans. The single issue guys are the ones tagging along not visa versa. I wish it weren't so, because I dont' think that these communists groups preach peace. They generally just seem to be anti-US. I have no problem with those that are not in support of the Iraq war- several friends of mine are against it.

But ask Nonie Darwish how she felt as those that preach "peace" disrupted her very pacifist speech, simply because she wasn't anti-US.

http://www.zombietime.com/darwish_berkeley/

It's really sad.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 4:36:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

but i think most scholars wouldn't agree with you that Stalin et al practised communism as envisaged by Marx and Engels........

I wasn't aware that either Marx or Engels practiced communism in any form.

So I would default to the terminology chosen by those who actually ran a country for a while, such as Mao, Castro, and Stalin.

They will just have to do until 'Twue' communism comes along.

....sighs......i didn't say they practised communism, but they did envisage it in Das Kapital. Pink wrote of what communism was 'meant to be like'. It was originally meant to be like what Marx and Engels wrote. i don't suggest it turned out that way...and that is exactly the point i was making. In essence there really was a 'twue' communism, existing as a thought experiment......it never made the leap to the real world. However several totalitarian regimes hijacked the term for their own purposes.

Everything owned in common, everyone living with some few basics... government in control, not corporations... what am I missing?

I do think that on a small level, with motivated individuals, you can come closer to a model that would work (no coersion, starvation, etc). In Russia's case, the whole country did begin down the course of communism with idealism in mind... just whenever that is put into practice, it means coercion, death camps and starvation. So at this point, I think I'm going to say that communism is a raging failure and a danger to the world as a method of government.

And the reason that I say it was closest to "how it was meant to be like" was because no matter what Ideal you envision, actual people carry the actions out and are imperfect. They seemed to forget that in the models and propaganda tracts.

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 4:38:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL on the links......

phil, you thinking you might have to take a shit later and need some asswipe?

communists ---

WMD postings more like it.

What was wrong with my links? Most of them were links to so-called progressive organizations that are the driving force behind many of today's peace rallies. You have links that show larger rallies that aren't connected to communists?

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 4:40:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Capitalism suffers from a serious flaw – namely, that to work the people engaging in it must be people of good and honest character but communism has never worked and communism will never work because communism is fundamentally flawed in it’s very concept. It is premised on the false beliefs that something can be worth other than it really is and that people can be something other than they are. It denies human nature - believing, incorrectly, that human nature is "socially constructed" and can be remolded at will. This is why communism (and it’s half hearted step sister, socialism) must always resort to tyranny to achieve it’s aims.

If communism can work why has it been necessary for communists to murder nearly one hundred million people? Why are concentration camps and secret police necessary? Why do communist nations have to guard their borders to keep their own people in? Why, when the Berlin wall fell, did everyone in the east head west and not the other way around?

"They came. They saw. They went shopping."
– Graffiti written on the remains of the Berlin wall shortly after it’s fall.

I look forward to the day in Cuba when all the posters of that murdering terrorist, Che Guevara, are plastered over with Coca Cola ads.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087

Well said, thank you. *clapping*

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 4:48:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

And the reason that I say it was closest to "how it was meant to be like" was because no matter what Ideal you envision, actual people carry the actions out and are imperfect. They seemed to forget that in the models and propaganda tracts.

*emphasis added*

Exactly.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to pinkme2)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 6:27:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL on the links......

phil, you thinking you might have to take a shit later and need some asswipe?

communists ---

WMD postings more like it.

What was wrong with my links? Most of them were links to so-called progressive organizations that are the driving force behind many of today's peace rallies. You have links that show larger rallies that aren't connected to communists?

nope good links, my calling asswipe has no more than a little bit to do with your calling these good people communists. First of all-------

Unions are communist?
waltz me thru how that works, just an overview pal, doubt you could bridge an entire notion.

just work on the fundamentals, I will ask questions in kind, it is obvious you can't hold three or four syllable concepts in your hand.

So, as we peruse the organizers of these gatherings what , exactly and precisely makes them communists or anything that should be held with arms akimbo?

in the hallowed words of cyberdude, you are forcing us to believe that we are communists and you have a clue.

which, you don't.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to pinkme2)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 6:44:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

nope good links, my calling asswipe has no more than a little bit to do with your calling these good people communists. First of all-------

What "good" people? Is calling a spade a spade name calling now? I've simply read their sites.

quote:

Unions are communist?
waltz me thru how that works, just an overview pal, doubt you could bridge an entire notion.

Never said Unions were communist. But communists do support unions, and on those sites, that tends to be another activist cause.

quote:

just work on the fundamentals, I will ask questions in kind, it is obvious you can't hold three or four syllable concepts in your hand.

You insult my intelligence and expect me to have a civilized debate with you? I think my intellect speaks for itself, as it does for anyone on either side of a debate. Simply disagreeing with you doesn't indicate my lack of intelligence, your (debatable) superior brain, or anything else. It just says we disagree.

quote:

So, as we peruse the organizers of these gatherings what , exactly and precisely makes them communists or anything that should be held with arms akimbo?

Which group? ANSWER? Or Power to the Peaceful? Or People's World Weekly? Or perhaps United for Peace and Justice? Which of these are you saying isn't communist? And why hold anything akimbo? Does that mean you are anti-communist as well since you seem to equate allegiance with them an evil to be avoided?

quote:

in the hallowed words of cyberdude, you are forcing us to believe that we are communists and you have a clue.

Who is this elusive "we"? I am stating that those organizers are communist. Do you belong to one of them? And I'm not a dude, though thanks for saying I fight like one.

quote:

which, you don't.

As I said, I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean I don't have a clue. This isn't about me. Interesting that you have to put me down and call me stupid instead of debating with words, like a big boy. Come on, you can do it!! I know you can.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 6:52:42 PM

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OK, big girl. you said the communists run all the protests, yes or no, be the marshmallow grasshopper.

Or stay home.

You are passing these links off as supporting your viewpoint, (very fucking tenuous)

a quick scan says that no words in these documents started with communis*, neither is there any talk of funding the protests by groups that are known communists. So, I call bullshit--------

Spin it daddy, you are not shoveling any buttressing of your position, but you are only shoveling bullshit--------------

Don't matter how softly, sweetly and smellingly you do that............

this is not a reason to believe. This is simply neo-con masturbation. Someone who mimics, but does not understand. End of joke.

Ron

add one thing: I am not insulting your intelligence. I am furiously in contempt of your conclusions.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/26/2007 6:54:22 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to pinkme2)

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/26/2007 7:05:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OK, big girl. you said the communists run all the protests, yes or no, be the marshmallow grasshopper.

Huh?? I didn't say they ran everything. I said that they were the largest similar agenda contingent organizing and showing up.

quote:

Or stay home.

Umm... from what? I don't go to "peace" rallies because I believe that only the conquered are "peaceful."

quote:

You are passing these links off as supporting your viewpoint, (very fucking tenuous)

Umm... ok. Proof? I've already asked for you to show me some larger rallies not organized by groups with communist links/ties/whatever. No one, including you has been able to do that. I'd love to be wrong. But I'm not.

quote:

a quick scan says that no words in these documents started with communis*, neither is there any talk of funding the protests by groups that are known communists. So, I call bullshit--------

So in order for you to believe they are communist, it has to be explicitly shown in there? Many groups don't advertise it. Why? Perhaps they know how well it would be received. People's Weekly World, which you claimed was simply a harmless Union tract, is a known official paper for the Communist party. I can go through each one, including my search process, if you'd like.

quote:

this is not a reason to believe. This is simply neo-con masturbation. Someone who mimics, but does not understand. End of joke.

I'm actually not a neo con in any sense of the word, but ok. Thanks for your colorful... umm... version of things.

quote:

add one thing: I am not insulting your intelligence. I am furiously in contempt of your conclusions.

Well, since you offered nothing to back up *your* conclusions, I'll simply ignore them.

(in reply to mnottertail)

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