RE: An example of why our military loves the press ....

Post #: 141

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:03:58 PM

pinkme2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2
I think mistakes can be uncovered, discussed and prosecuted *after* we've won. It's all about perception, not truth. Haven't you been paying attention? *wink*

...this, i think, is the crux of our disagreement. i do strongly believe that the truth takes precedence over just about anything else. Another word for perception in politics is spin. Once we start down the road of managing perception as opposed to discovering truth, then we lose our moral anchors. We abandon our ethics.
The war on terror is only justifiable as a war of ethical systems.....essentially a question of what is the right way to create political and societal change. If we lose sight of that then we stand the very real risk of becoming the real terrorists. Perhaps not the 'strap a bomb on yer chest and find a bus' sort of terrorist.....but the sort of terrorist that uses fear as the weapon of choice.
i genuinely think we can do better than that.

Whereas I believe we can hold true to what we believe, discovering truth, and prosecuting those who act outside our belief system, without giving our enemies more hope. I do think it's happening (prosecuting of criminal acts on our side), but for some, it has to be out in the open and we have to whip ourselves on the altar of apology forever to be over it. We can do it quietly. But that's not enough for some. Hell, no apology/prison time/money is ever enough for many of the radicals. And you know that, Philo. They're not just out for "peace" or for "justice" but to trash our country. I'm not counting all of them in this, but many.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 142

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:04:59 PM

pinkme2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...this, i think, is the crux of our disagreement. i do strongly believe that the truth takes precedence over just about anything else. Another word for perception in politics is spin. Once we start down the road of managing perception as opposed to discovering truth, then we lose our moral anchors. We abandon our ethics.
The war on terror is only justifiable as a war of ethical systems.....essentially a question of what is the right way to create political and societal change. If we lose sight of that then we stand the very real risk of becoming the real terrorists. Perhaps not the 'strap a bomb on yer chest and find a bus' sort of terrorist.....but the sort of terrorist that uses fear as the weapon of choice.
i genuinely think we can do better than that.

I agree with Phil on this one the biggest terrorists in the Middle East is the US military.

That's not what Philo said, it's what YOU are saying. And it shows plainly how out of touch and biased you are.

< Message edited by pinkme2 -- 10/29/2007 1:05:14 PM >

(in reply to joanus)

Post #: 143

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:14:38 PM

joanus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i'm reminded of the line from the Abyss.....'hippie, don't be on my side'.......Joanus, you may be right, you may be wrong. Now what is the best way forward? To name call and engage in childish yah boo you're a bigger terrorist than my fridge stuff? Or to try to identify the root of the problem (if there is a problem) and move on from there.
Bear in mind that no-one listens to you if all you do is identify the bad stuff, try identifying positive things too.
For instance, i have argued hotly with firmhand in the past, i don't apologise for that......but it got us precisely nowhere. All it did is entrench our previously held opinions. If change is to happen we all have to hold our preconceptions in a certain amount of contempt......this means you, me, firmhand, pinkme and the dalai lama........

Yes lets focus on the good so we can forget how fucked up the world is. Oh and Im not a Hippie, trust me I am the opposite of a hippie but Im not some right wing gunghao NRA member. I simply try to find a compromise between senceless destruction and Lying down and taking it like a pussy. Instead of listening to the news or the governemnt I actually check out whats going on for myself and formulate my own opinion about whats fucked up and whats ok. And trust me the World today is as far from ok as you can get,
Yes there is a problem in the Middle East but Armchair Warriors and Internet Crusaders Like you guys should try actually finding out what its really like rather than sitting on your butts and screaming at the screen how you think Bush, some coach or some overpaid jock should do their job. So if you want to whine about the War go to Iraq and sit down in the middle of a fire fight and then see if you are of the same opinion. Or try running forty yards through and around 2 tons of muscle than wants to pound you into the ground. (sorry I'm in a sports bar right now) When you can do what others failed to do then you can say what ever you want. Until then shut up.
Im sorry if this comes off a little pissy but I am tried of the constant macho talk and the poseing.

< Message edited by joanus -- 10/29/2007 1:17:23 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 144

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:16:23 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

no apology/prison time/money is ever enough for many of the radicals

....i recognise the attitude you describe here Pinkme, i really do. However it doesn't exist in a vacuum. At the other end of the spectrum is an attitude that suggests that 'no apology/prison time/money is necessary'. The real issue is where to draw that line.
i do have a minor problem when you suggest that justice can be done quietly. Justice must be seen to be done or there is no justice. Sometimes the offences are so inhuman that they need to be exemplified. Abu Ghraib is an example of such, however in that case it was clear to most that the real breakdown occured quite high up......with high ranking people who clearly wanted to find a way for the USA to be exempt from the normal and civilised standards relating to the treatment of foreign civilians. The soldiers who ended up paying the price for that were sacrificed in order to protect higher ups.
As i've tried to suggest, the war on terror is a war of ethical systems. We need to identify what ethical code we are fighting for......and then stand by it. If any on our side break that code then make examples of them...and by so doing win the propaganda war......and ultimately the propaganda war is the real battlefield.

(in reply to pinkme2)

Post #: 145

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:20:40 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

Yes lets focus on the good so we can forget how fucked up the world is.

....no, lets focus on the good so that we can find common ground and thus move forward together. Because while we are divided we aren't going anywhere. Focussing on the good doesn't mean forgetting the bad......i am quite capable of holding more than two facts in my mind at any one time. One truth does not negate another truth....paradoxes are quite normal in human affairs. You may as well get used to that.

(in reply to joanus)

Post #: 146

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:41:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

When I debate with someone who impresses me with their command of the subject at hand I show my respect for them.

... and, by definition, anyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't have "command of the subject" ... and is therefore not worthy of any respect.

Got it.

If you disagree with SM, then you are an idiot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
You have yet to write anything worthy of any respect which is why I treat you with a minimum of civility.

... and since only idiots dare disagree with SM, then they don't warrant any civility, respect, or humanity.

Got it.

hmmm .... I think the DSM-IV has a name for those type of belief patterns.

Firm

KY, I know you think you are quite slick but once again you can't respond to anything I have posted and insult me. There are posters here I disagree with vehemently with but have the utmost respect for, Merc of Merc&Beth is not exactly the poster child for liberalism and yet him and I not only debate civility, we greatly enjoy spending time together. Caitlyn and I have had some violent disagreements and while I object to her conclusions I have stopped bothered trying to check many of her facts because she HAS an actualy base of knowledge to draw from. I have spent a lot of time in the small arms business, another thing not famous for being a hotbed of liberalism but I have many friends who I disagree with but can do so on the basis of the conclusions they draw not on their lack of a grasp of history.

I have answered any number of questions in this thread but have yet to have any of mine answered. As usual, when Republicans face off against someone who doesn't have a mushy grasp of history they resort to name calling and or hand wringing over our "irrational hatred of Bush" which is amusing coming from people who were screeching to impeach Clinton over a simply lie about sex and mine comes from a complex undermining of the values and constitution of the country I love.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 147

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:42:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I mean I could be wrong but my guess is Pink grasp of this subject is quite shallow although adequate for a cheerleeder it seems. Nobody help her, let her own conscious eat at her when she googles this stuff and pretends to know it.

Any idea of which former communist country received massive US support for many many years and was never tied closely to Stalin?

Can you name a Middle East country other than Israel the West has not invaded, occupied, or overthrown their government?

How many democracies has the US overthrown?

quote:

If they have nukes, then they will be fucking with America and the safety and security of the world. If you think they'd keep them to themselves, then you are delusional.

Can you by any chance give us an example of how Iran is going to do this. Pretend for the moment that instead of 11 Nimitz class carriers, the US has only one although that one carrier could wipe out the entire Middle East conventionally or with nucs. Also pretend we have only one Ohio class nuclear submarine carrying 24 Trident missiles armed with 8 warheads each.

I await your answer, don't try and get it off of Fox News because they couldn't figure it out either.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 148

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:49:30 PM

pinkme2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

no apology/prison time/money is ever enough for many of the radicals

....i recognise the attitude you describe here Pinkme, i really do. However it doesn't exist in a vacuum. At the other end of the spectrum is an attitude that suggests that 'no apology/prison time/money is necessary'. The real issue is where to draw that line.
i do have a minor problem when you suggest that justice can be done quietly. Justice must be seen to be done or there is no justice. Sometimes the offences are so inhuman that they need to be exemplified. Abu Ghraib is an example of such, however in that case it was clear to most that the real breakdown occured quite high up......with high ranking people who clearly wanted to find a way for the USA to be exempt from the normal and civilised standards relating to the treatment of foreign civilians. The soldiers who ended up paying the price for that were sacrificed in order to protect higher ups.
As i've tried to suggest, the war on terror is a war of ethical systems. We need to identify what ethical code we are fighting for......and then stand by it. If any on our side break that code then make examples of them...and by so doing win the propaganda war......and ultimately the propaganda war is the real battlefield.

I'm going to just have to disagree with you fundamentally here. If our enemies thought like that, I'd agree. If those on the "peace" side of things thought like that, I'd agree. But they don't, and so I don't. The terrorists see any sign of apology or breakdown in unity as a weakness and exploit it as such. They succeeded in Spain and hope to do it here. Remember when they came out publically for Kerry in the last US presidential election? They did so for a reason. Why is that? Why did the terrorists get behind the Democrat? Or take the peace activists... even a public apology, jail time and money paid to those hurt/involved didn't lessen their outrage. Why not? While I understand Americans held to a higher standard, why do they ignore the good and instead constantly go on about the bad? Every little thing gets magnified and held up, and shouted about. It's never enough.

We can become so focused on all our wrongs and failings and forget what we are fighting. When I focus on a partner's weaknesses and forget their strengths, it's detrimental to the relationship. You get to nitpicking and looking for problems. Haven't you noticed that about many of the anti-war crowd? When I talk to them, it's all ranting and raving, negatives and bad attitude... and somehow you say our country's positive matter to them? According to many of them, we have no code!

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 149

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:51:03 PM

pinkme2

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(I'm not answering you Michael. You're not my teacher and I ain't taking a quiz.)

(in reply to pinkme2)

Post #: 150

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:54:11 PM

mnottertail

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LOL, which terrorist group came out publicly for Kerry?

So, you think that they thought that their support of Kerry was an enhancement?

You don't think that they would have got the idea that they would make people wanna distance themselves from Kerry? It ain't like they could vote.

Now, assuming that there are some attributes to these folk that make them dangerous, and plotting and capable of intrigue-------waltz me thru the downline on that would you?

Maybe I am confused, but I really gotta say I fuckin' doubt it.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to pinkme2)

Post #: 151

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 1:54:44 PM

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Too bad, you need some education.

(in reply to pinkme2)

Post #: 152

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:00:36 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

I'm going to just have to disagree with you fundamentally here. If our enemies thought like that, I'd agree. If those on the "peace" side of things thought like that, I'd agree. But they don't, and so I don't.

......you're making a rather sweeping assumption. i would be considered on the 'peace' side of things....yet i try to be reasonable. You may even agree that i try to be reasonable. i think you're charcterising an entire position based on the extremists.

quote:

The terrorists see any sign of apology or breakdown in unity as a weakness and exploit it as such. They succeeded in Spain and hope to do it here. Remember when they came out publically for Kerry in the last US presidential election? They did so for a reason. Why is that? Why did the terrorists get behind the Democrat?

...i'd argue they did so in order to make sure Bush won. Terrorists know they have little or no constituency in the US. By backing a candidate they didn't want in, they make it easier for the one they want to get in.

quote:

Or take the peace activists... even a public apology, jail time and money paid to those hurt/involved didn't lessen their outrage. Why not? While I understand Americans held to a higher standard, why do they ignore the good and instead constantly go on about the bad? Every little thing gets magnified and held up, and shouted about. It's never enough.

..again, i feel you're seeing the extremes of an argument and characterising a whole group based on those attitudes.

quote:

We can become so focused on all our wrongs and failings and forget what we are fighting. When I focus on a partner's weaknesses and forget their strengths, it's detrimental to the relationship. You get to nitpicking and looking for problems. Haven't you noticed that about many of the anti-war crowd? When I talk to them, it's all ranting and raving, negatives and bad attitude... and somehow you say our country's positive matter to them? According to many of them, we have no code!

...i'd agree with the whole paragraph if the word 'many' was replaced by 'some'.

(in reply to pinkme2)

Post #: 153

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:03:44 PM

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quote:

The terrorists see any sign of apology or breakdown in unity as a weakness and exploit it as such.

How exactly can you exploit that as weakness? The vast majority of people in the US who now oppose the war are only recently doing so and do so because they can plainly see what people like myself saw before the war started. Putting the Shia in charge of Iraq is a strategic mistake which is why when the rose up after GWI, Bush father allowed Saddam to massacre them along with the Kurds. Whatever can be salvaged from this massive strategic blunder can only be done so diplomatically, not at the end of a bayonet. Speaking of which can you name the last time there was a bayonet charge? Probably not but I think it is so cool!

It is the incompetence of this administration, like Custer's, that has emboldened our enemy. This war isn't being lost because some grandmother is standing on a streetcorner with a sign saying "surrender now" (or whatever) but because Bush has made blunders at every level from strategic to tactical.

If everyone in America wanted to surrender to the Muslims but our military and diplomatic assets were doing what they should be doing, Iraq AND Afghanistan would be prosperous countries by now and nobody could stop them. The only thing standing in the way of our troops winning is this administration, not some grandma with a peace sign.

(in reply to pinkme2)

Post #: 154

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:27:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joanus

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Hmm... And the current inhabitants of each European country are native? Or has there been some shifting around there too?

In actuality, all peoples fight for land and territory, including the Native Americans. They lost. The Celts lost. The odd thing about modern times is how little industrial nations fight over this anymore. The third world still does. Muslims and Palestinians are still fighting. African nations battle all the time over it.

So it's not some peculiar American thing to wrest land from the natives. *rolls eyes*

With the exeption of WWII I really doubt any other country has mass murdered a race of people on such a level. Because the US government put out a bounty on every Indian killed they where pushed almost to the point of extinction now the are guests in their own countries. The real problem I see in this is how America prides its self for being founded on Freedom and Liberty when it was really built on Slavery and Bloodshed. Now they police the world bringing "Freedom".
Can you still call it freedom when you force it on others?

First, things weren’t hunky dory in this continent before the Europeans arrived.

The Indians were killing and raiding each other just fine. In fact, scientists have uncovered evidence of mass murder in the Southwest - PRIOR to European arrival.

Here’s another thing that arrived in our Southwest, something that would’ve continued unchecked had it not been for Spanish arrival - Aztec influence.

Who were the Aztecs? This was a group of people that conquered surrounding tribes, and levied a heavy tax on them. This tax included family members that were sacrificed at the alter.

This was one of the driving reasons behind why many tribes allied with the Conquistadores against the Aztecs.

One would have to look at European, Asian, and African histories to see what would’ve happened without European intervention--Aztec civilization, or a successor civilization, conquering the tribes in northern Mexico and Southwest US.

Or, we could’ve had a situation where Indians from the North invaded the expanding Aztec, or Aztec based civilization.

The point is that sooner or later, the Indians living on the East coast would’ve been subjected to invasion.

Unless human nature is different when dealing with Indians, it wasn’t going to matter if the Europeans arrived in the Americas or not. Those Indians were going to be conquered--or evolved into a civilization that participates in conquer.

What happened in the US was not different from what happened in other parts of the World. One group conquered the others. If we didn’t enter the picture, SOMEONE on the North American continent, an Indian group, was going to do the conquering.

The last time I checked, slavery and bloodshed weren’t unique to the United States.

(in reply to joanus)

Post #: 155

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:32:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Montana,

No wonder, what's next a screed about n&^%grs and jews?

You’re comparing apples and oranges with this comparison.

I support Pinky’s assessments. From what I’m reading, she’s not throwing things around just to “rant and rave” about things.

She’s telling it like it is, and I applaud her.

(in reply to herfacechair)

Post #: 156

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:34:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

KY,

Actually, I much prefer what I wrote before. The overly simplistic and blithely ignorant posts in most Republican posts tend to get my goat. However, since I don't disregard all Republicans as idiots, I prefer to take on individuals but that isn't allowed here and that is the only reason I edited my post.

I’ve read the posts by some of the people you’ve debated with on this message board. Those posters that you dismiss as making “simplistic and blithely ‘ignorant’” posts have a very good grasp of what’s going on around the world.

One of them was twice your junior. Despite your insinuation that he didn’t have that much experience, that if only he gained experience he’d “see” what you’re saying he’d start seeing things similar to you. But his arguments were more on target, and closely matched to what’s going on, than your arguments.

Understand that when those conservative posters see posts like yours, or other liberal posts, they end up feeling the same way you feel here.

As for your statement about taking individuals on here “not being allowed”, I beg to differ. I’ve gone up against practically every liberal on a thread. Or the vast majority of them. The administration has issues with people slapping insults and fighting words around while doing it.

They don’t have issues with people being polite.

(in reply to herfacechair)

Post #: 157

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:36:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I mean I could be wrong but my guess is Pink grasp of this subject is quite shallow although adequate for a cheerleeder it seems. Nobody help her, let her own conscious eat at her when she googles this stuff and pretends to know it.

I disagree. Pink has a very good grasp of the realities that we’re facing. She’s doing the same thing a person would do if they were to describe a red fire hydrant as a red fire hydrant.

This is an assumption that you’re position is the “correct” one, and that she “knows” it, and that she’s “stubbornly” holding onto a position for “refusing” to be “wrong”. Or something to that effect.

I’ve argued many of her pointers on this and other threads/message boards for the past four years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Any idea of which former communist country received massive US support for many many years and was never tied closely to Stalin?

Can you name a Middle East country other than Israel the West has not invaded, occupied, or overthrown their government?

How many democracies has the US overthrown?

These are all red herring statements that don’t address Pink’s arguments. However, these questions does build on what I talked about on my first post here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Can you by any chance give us an example of how Iran is going to do this. Pretend for the moment that instead of 11 Nimitz class carriers, the US has only one although that one carrier could wipe out the entire Middle East conventionally or with nucs. Also pretend we have only one Ohio class nuclear submarine carrying 24 Trident missiles armed with 8 warheads each.

I await your answer, don't try and get it off of Fox News because they couldn't figure it out either.

The War on Terrorism is an asymmetrical war. You should view this as such, otherwise, you’re begging to lose the war.

Under asymmetrical warfare, you don’t need a power projecting military to deliver a blow against a powerful enemy. Terrorists proved that in 1993 and 2001.

In this case, all you need is a suitcase nuclear bomb, and a member of a terrorist organization’s martyrdom brigade, and presto. A precision guided “bomb” that could strike a target within inches.

Not even the greatest military in the world, with enough firepower power to level a continent, could prevent 19 hijackers from turning airliners into precision guided projectiles aimed at targets on our own soil.

In Iran’s case, we have someone that believes that he was bathed in some divine light. This same person has said things about Israel that weren’t quite flattering.

Nuclear capability + Man that believes that he plays a role in bringing in an Armageddon type battle to rush the 12th mhadi’s (sp) retun.

You do the math.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 158

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:42:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

What? You deny that communism isn't around anymore? Who is the main financier of most peace rallies? The communists.

....this line leapt out at me....do you have a link to support that claim?

“We practically midwived the birth of the Anti War movement in the U.S.” -Senior ranking KGB agent

For confirmation, I recommend that you read the book, “Through the Eyes of the Enemy,” by Colonel Stanislav Lunev. As of the time he wrote that book, he was the senior ranking GRU agent to defect to the US.

And check this out:

http://www.protestwarrior.com/gallery.php?group=lefties&pic=7

http://www.protestwarrior.com/gallery.php?group=lefties&pic=8

http://www.protestwarrior.com/gallery.php?group=lefties&pic=10

http://www.protestwarrior.com/gallery.php?group=lefties&pic=13

There’s still a communist/socialist movement, and their influence is still strong.

That’s from the http://www.protestwarrior.com site.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 159

RE: An example of why our military loves the press .... - 10/29/2007 2:47:02 PM

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SimplyMIchael: Bush has close ties to Bin Laudin and is therefore a terrorist and the Republican party has close to ties to white supremicists and thus are all racists, course you probably know about the latter.

Not true.

The reality is that members of the Bush family had some business dealings with members of the Bin Ladin family, NOT with Osama Bin Laden himself.

As for your statement about Republicans having “close ties” with white supremacists, again that’s not true.

Some members of the Republican party, as are some members of the Democratic party, had ties with white supremacists.

Here’s a tidbit you should remember. A greater percentage of the Republican Party supported the Civil Rights Act (approx. 80%) compared to the percentage of Democrats that supported that act (approx. 62%)

SimplyMIchael: Oh, and as for Raygun winning the cold war, Kennen said of that thought "intrinsically silly and childish" which seems an apt description of the followers of Bush today.

Reagan’s policies DID end the Cold War. He knew that the Soviet Economy couldn’t support their system. All he had to do was economically strangle their inefficient economy, while pressuring them with a military buildup.

They needed that economy to sustain their military machine.

The Soviet’s knew that. They’d passed us up in military strength before Reagan became president, and they were at capacity in terms of being able to support that buildup.

Reagan forced them to go past breaking point by maintaining their military buildup at great expense to their economy. He did that by expanding our military. He made things hard on them by chocking them economically.

The end result? They collapsed. It started with the breaking down of the Berlin Wall, and liberation of Soviet Block countries. And ended when the Soviet Union disintegrated.

There are allot of people in the former Soviet Block countries that love Ronald Reagan for what he did.

SimplyMIchael: And of course not a single answer to any of my rather simple questions but I guess one can't expect much from a high school education these days.

Those questions were red herring statements that didn’t support your argument, or detract from hers. I don’t blame her for not answering them.

SimplyMIchael: Its sad how cowardly many Republican's are, so terrified of the Muslim menace

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null

quote:

We have ruled the world before

And by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again

The day will come when we will rule America

The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world…

After Bin Laden told us that we should convert to Islam, and considering the above tying the Moorish Caliphates to the modern day “Islamic Nation”, who wouldn’t see this as some kind of menace?

How many times did Bin Laden talk about ill fate falling on America before the attacks of 9/11/2001?

The above isn’t isolated, but common. Their ultimate goal is converting the world to their brand of Islam. Our response, witch amounts to us fighting in a MORTAL fight, doesn’t constitute cowardly. But us fighting so that our civilization, and our way of life, doesn’t perish.

SimplyMIchael: that they are ready to surrender the constitution, their rights, and god knows what else to a group who couldn't even beat France. Just seems so odd.

Nobody, NOT ONE person, that’s thrown this charge, has been able to prove his point.

But, I’ve been able to prove the constitutionality, and legality, of our government’s actions that’s earning them the “giving up the constitution” label.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)