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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 8:54:31 PM

DianeB269

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

MY THOUGHT: The reason this is a turn off for SOME mistresses is that while sissification is done in our venue, it's the Mistress' idea.. not the submissive's. THAT'S what makes it BDSM.

When the sissy comes already "dressed to the wiitwd party", there is nothing left for the Mistress to do really. She can't actually do forced feminization.. he already presents that he likes it. There are rare mistresses that enjoy just watching sissy prance about.. but is it really BDSM?

Tawk amoungst yourselves, discuss :)

I'm one those Dommes that doesn't like to play or do a scene with a cd or a tv...
So, I have to agree with LotusSong...

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/2/2007 10:01:14 PM

undergroundsea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Crossdressing is a very common fetish, and as a fetish, it gets dumped into the BDSM corner. I am not sure it's accurate to say that sissies and sissy maids are a proper subset of CD's, and I certainly don't think that fetish crossdressing has anything to do with the TG community. T's are dressing as part of their transition to female life (or male life) so for them it is appropriate, not fetishy.

I use the term crossdressing as a verb or action. In other words:

[The act of] crossdressing (of which sissification is one form) is driven by a different combination of motivations for different people: an admiration or fetish for female appearance and attire (to feel sexy and sensual), to be emasculated or to escape the male identity, incongruence between the sex (as defined by anatomy) and gender (as defined by that individual's psychological make up), a form of submission through appearance play, more.

quote:

I am one that feels that "forced fem" as a humiliation is degrading to women.

I see your point and I think it reflects on society more than the individual. That is, I don't think a want to be crossdressed for sake of humiliation is necessarily for misogynistic reasons. I think the humiliation or whatever symbolism forced crossdressing represents is driven by how such an appearance is perceived in general. For instance, someone who shows up at a formal event wearing shorts and t-shirt will feel uncomfortable, not for how he feels about wearing a short and t-shirt but for how others are viewing him for wearing those clothes.

I think women, men, dommes, and subs each respond to society's general view about a man dressing as a woman.

quote:

I think there is room in the scene for everyone. I do support the idea of select-interest play spaces and groups (Michigan Club Fem, for one) so that those into maiding, food play, pony play, etc can enjoy their specific favorite thing. These SIG's should be an enhancement of an open scene---how would any of us get to know what else is out there if it wasn't available for us to see? How many CD's come to events not dressed, that would be encouraged by the sight of others that are?

I agree.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 12:09:55 AM

FullfigRIMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
How friendly do you think my responses would be if I started a thread, "Fat Ladies: The reason this is a turn off for some men is....." Next, imagine the irony if I called a responder to me in such a thread "hateful."

Hey! When did this become about us?!

Unphuck you aaight! M

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 4:04:03 AM

iwearpanties

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Ms LotusSong . i see where you stated your male sub is in panties always .. i can relate too this when i did have Mistress she also had me in them but i had already had a fetish for wearing them .. i figuired all if not most male subs at some pioint wear or where placed in panties as sign of submission or to remind them of there place among Mistress'es and other Dominants

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 7:13:27 AM

LotusSong

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I stand up to you b/c I think you are ignorant and judgmental. (Sorry, I can't pull any punches here.)

If you want to call it hate, be my guest.

Pull punches? Neither do I. (and I don't apologise for it) My OPINION is the result of actualy interacting with crossdressers. There is a common attitude and you are displaying it wonderfully.

Your generalizations are off the mark. Your comprehension of CDs is limited.

Thank you for your opinion.

You'd be a lot more honest if you'd just say, "I'm turned off by CDs." Why masquarade with a lead of, "The reason this is a turn off for SOME mistresses....."

ahhh.. because I'm not the ONLY one?

I'm curious, how many CDs have ever written to you congratulating you for your posts and understanding of their situation?

I haven't felt the need to post such a note.. but if I do and I get any responses I'll let you know :)

How friendly do you think my responses would be if I started a thread, "Fat Ladies: The reason this is a turn off for some men is....." Next, imagine the irony if I called a responder to me in such a thread "hateful."

I don't know. I don't think I've ever seen you do a "friendly post" whever this subject comes up.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 8:35:51 AM

cloudboy

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Well, I hope you got my point. It may not be clear from this thread, but it is abundantly clear from LS's posting history that she vehemently dislikes CDs and sissies --- and lacks any kind of insightful, sympathetic understanding of them whatsoever. Furthermore, she feels compelled to express "the reasons" she doesn't like them, and in this case, why they don't fit into BDSM from her POV.

She's like a right wing reverand talking about gay marriage. The guy masquarades like he's telling some kind of "objective" truth, but in reality he's just projecting what he feels on the inside outward.

People who project from the inside out, don't often see what's actually outside. In LS's case, this means she's always talking about herself and her own feelings and not about about actual CDs and Sissies.

Lola used to call such people here bigots, and I used to think he was exagerating. Now I agree with him.

Sissies don't have an "acceptence problem," they just are not accepted, understood, or appreciated by most woman. Gay's don't have an "acceptance problem" either, society does.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/3/2007 8:41:57 AM >

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 9:48:53 AM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Sissies don't have an "acceptence problem," they just are not accepted, understood, or appreciated by most woman.

This DOES seem like the very definition of "problem"... I am going to go out on a limb here and say that MANY fetish interests have limited acceptance and understanding. Personally, I would not have a sissy for a personal submissive. Are they welcome as friends? Absolutely! Do I have sissy maid service at parties? Yep. And my guests and I are very appreciative. Why not?

If you pursue something unusual, the best anyone can ask for is cordial tolerance. I accept that Goreans are part of the realm of WIIWD, just as those who are into vomit and shit and humiliation, and all sorts of other things that I do not participate in or perhaps even personally approve of. I am not really interested in the whys and wherefores of the things I do not like, except as a way of helping me better understand my fellow humans.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 10:21:20 AM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

. Furthermore, she feels compelled to express "the reasons" she doesn't like them, and in this case, why they don't fit into BDSM from her POV.

I just don't make a statement without an explanation. It pre-answers the "where did she come up with that?" It's a courtesy thing.

Let's get back to the OP. In summary it asks.. are BDSM clubs the appropriate venue for those not interested in BDSM or M/s or D/s (or whatever alphabet soup you know), that just wish to dress up.

One of the definitions for fetish is: Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.

If by this definition, cross dressing is a person's fetish, then it makes sense to me.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 10:53:14 AM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Let's get back to the OP. In summary it asks.. are BDSM clubs the appropriate venue for those not interested in BDSM or M/s or D/s (or whatever alphabet soup you know), that just wish to dress up.

Why don't you just be honest and say that your OP was really just another passive-aggressive airing of your personal issues with crossdressers? As has already been pointed out by cloudboy, your posting history on the topic of crossdressers is rife with contempt and animus for them. Why attempt to couch this thread as anything different?

~stef

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 12:30:02 PM

BBBTBW

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I think the biggest problem for subs and slaves that dress is the DOMMES they try to associate themselves with want to have their DOMINANT feelings met rather than seeing the person as someone willing to be their sub/slave but have this particular proclivity.

Sure there are things I like to do with a slave...but if they already come with that particular proclvity, I get creative and see how I can advance the level of that proclivity. With dressing it doesn't necessarily mean hormones and or surgery. It can mean purchasing articles of clothing together, something identical so you and your slave can dress alike. Purchase him a couple of gaffs and make him the girly boy you want without the surgery. Everyone even the most muscular of men have extra flesh under their arms and on their chests...buy them some bra's that accentuate breasts when that extra flesh is pushed into the bra. Buy him realistic wigs or style his hair in a fem style. Learn to do his make up so that he has the appearance of softer lines with shadowing etc....make him your best girlfriend. Train him to be your maid or girl friday when he is dressed. Train him to put on his own makeup and style his hair or wig. It can be fun and if he is already into it, you can really get giddy about it. Make the most of the situation by being creative.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 12:34:24 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Let's get back to the OP. In summary it asks.. are BDSM clubs the appropriate venue for those not interested in BDSM or M/s or D/s (or whatever alphabet soup you know), that just wish to dress up.

Why don't you just be honest and say that your OP was really just another passive-aggressive airing of your personal issues with crossdressers? As has already been pointed out by cloudboy, your posting history on the topic of crossdressers is rife with contempt and animus for them. Why attempt to couch this thread as anything different?

~stef

People read into things what they wish. The "lifestyle" has been lamented at times as a "catchall".
I posted what I did because of the threads asking "Why do Mistresses Not Like Sissies or CD or TVs or Switches or Broccoli or Bichon Frises"? When someone posts a why question, I will answer from my experiences. Mostly it becomes more of pity party instead of a discussion.

Listen, I did not say I hate CD's.. I just don't relate to them. When so many say "How come nobody wants to collar/play with us"? I offer a possible reason. If it is something I have had an actual experience with.. I'll share it. If they don't want to discuss it, then why ask?

My OP is one that many people with this behavior come to the local dungeons or groups and then find a disappointment when they are not finding what they want. I'm just trying to get them to think about what they are asking and the venue in which they are seeking like minds.

I wouldn't attend a Catholic Mass then afterward pull the priest aside and ask why he neglected to address the (insert holy book of any other religion here). Or is the particular faith just being closed minded and non-inclusive? I mean, they are a belife in a higher power and all that.. what's the differnce?

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 12:42:50 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwearpanties

Ms LotusSong . i see where you stated your male sub is in panties always .. i can relate too this when i did have Mistress she also had me in them but i had already had a fetish for wearing them .. i figuired all if not most male subs at some pioint wear or where placed in panties as sign of submission or to remind them of there place among Mistress'es and other Dominants

Yes I did. That is his preference to do because he iikes the material. He was in to that before we even met. It's not humilating to him. It's not something I ever ordered him to do. In short, it is not D/s BDSM related. And yes, he looks pretty in them :)

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/3/2007 2:56:21 PM

catleggs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

I think the biggest problem for subs and slaves that dress is the DOMMES they try to associate themselves with want to have their DOMINANT feelings met rather than seeing the person as someone willing to be their sub/slave but have this particular proclivity.

I agree! You certainly said a mouthful there ;)

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/4/2007 4:15:52 AM

iwearpanties

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hello Ms BBBTBW

i have to say you i think have the right ideas about the cding and submission of cds and sub males who like to dress and wear . honestly i think this is just what most cd/panty bois are seeking is just fun and enjoying the play and sessions that come with it . but i also understand there are the Mistress 'es who dont care for this either but dam dont knock for our likes or wants . i know and have seen where some cds try toobe real femalesand over doing the breast and bra stuffing maybe thesecds just loves TITS! but not all of us are this way either . and i certainly havent nor would i put down or verbaly attack a Mistress for not being into the simular type of play and or fetishes as i may be ...

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/4/2007 7:41:31 AM

MissAndry

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personal opinion is that BDSM is what you make of it, some things that a lot of peep here would find practically vanilla would be complete kink for someone new/inexperienced.
Personally I like sissies, I can always punish them by taking their lingerie away and denying them their femme fix lol.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/4/2007 11:22:44 AM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morsigil

On that note, I think a lot of guys who have closests full of outfits and come dressed to the nines (in their party dresses or what have you) are topping from the bottom by taking an active hand in their fetish without your consent, and that, to me, is not attractive even as someone who wouldn't be in the top position to begin with.

I want to go back to the original OP and this statement made in post#2.
Bolded above...this is where the CD conundrum kills it for Me. I have a good friend who is a CD and is an absolute delight. He knows how to dress, and thoroughly enjoys it. I gave him his "breasts" as a surpsie, and we spent time laughing and practicing "the walk". He is submissive and we have played. I am comfortable with him/her, and have no problem with his love of cross dressing.
He has a love of cross dressing and he is honest about it. He is also a good bottom, and, at times, can be quite submissive. But he would never be a 24/7 boy for Me.
Where I run into a problem is those that try to force their fetish on Me. It is not only enough that I can accept it and tolerate it, but I have to actively participate in it. If I don't do certain things, demand certain things, show obvious enjoyment in his situation (often it is a matter of humiliation for him) and actively take him to new and higher levels, and this is all he really wants btw, then he pouts and is unhappy and unfulfilled.
I don't mind cross dressing in its place. But My personal experience has been that 99 out of 100 boys who are into this fetish only want to show off, have the thrill and/or cannot feel submissive unless they are dressed up.
Perhaps some of it comes from a need to be recognized and accepted. So it is forced down My throat until I am either perceived as unfair or bigoted or I will do it their way.
I really don't mind CDs, and I have no problem with them in the lifestyle, or at events, munches, etc. But I do feel that there are many (most?) who are not really the full package, and they are simply looking for a safe place to act out their fantasies and gain acceptance. There are other places. When they run into a lack of interest it is mainly because this is what their entire interest in the lifestyle is based upon. They are not well rounded in any sense. It is the same as "bottoms" who are only interested in hooking up for a good session of what they want, be it CBT (thread about that right now), bondage or a golden shower. They don't know where else to find it, so they come into this sub-culture to get their itch scratched. It makes sense until they get all bent out of shape because everyone doesn't want to be considered available for this sort of play/activity at the drop of a hat just because it is something they might have an interest in under certain circumstances.
And I have to agree with Francine. The one thing that really frosts Me is the need to be feminized in order to feel submissive. They can't do it as a man. But they can as a "woman"?
I am not opposed to CDs at all. I am opposed to being forced into accepting them as more than a bottom with a fetish who might work out fine for occasionally serving at a luncheon or getting together for an afternoon of shopping and gossip, until I get to know if they have more to offer than a good wardrobe. So far, I haven't had any success in that area.
Well, I broke My toe last night and I am in pain, so I am probably not making a lot of sense! *Smile*
But I do wish everyone a great day! (That means you too, cloudboy!)

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 11/4/2007 11:24:01 AM >

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/4/2007 12:20:13 PM

MadameMarque

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So what, really, is your desired topic, here?

Are sissification, male-to-female crossdressing, feminization "really" BDSM?

Sometimes. They are fetishes. (This assumes that you're not talking really about transgender persons, rather than transvestism.) A fetish is to derive sexual stimulation from something - an object, a body part - that is not inheritly sexual, or to derive sexual satisfaction from it, in the absence of sex, itself. Fetishism need not be BDSM, and BDSM need not include any fetishism, but the two are often together.

If the feminization has an dominant/submissive or sadomasochist element or dynamic to it, then, of course, it's BDSM.

If the crossdressing or feminization is not BDSM oriented, in itself, does it have to be?

Or is your topic, "sissies' acceptance problem"? If the submissive crossdresser's approach to crossdressing is good chemistry with the mistress, great; if it's not, but between the two of them, they can find a way for both to be satisfied, great; if not, then they're not a suitable match. That's all.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/4/2007 12:29:38 PM

AFlyInYourWeb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW

Sure there are things I like to do with a slave...but if they already come with that particular proclvity, I get creative and see how I can advance the level of that proclivity.
It can be fun and if he is already into it, you can really get giddy about it. Make the most of the situation by being creative.

What we, as both Dominants or submissives, often forget is that we are, and are dealing with, people first and kinksters second [I hope].

We all "discriminate" on one level or another: age ranges being the most common, followed by height/weight, appearance, sexual oreintation ["Must be bi or bi-curious" OR "No bi-sexuals!"]...with distance perhaps being the most practical ["must live within one hour's drive of Bumfig Montana"].

Some women are squicked out by CD, and I believe that is their right. I can think of some proclivities that some Dominas have that squick me out, and that is my right, too. It is just a matter of taste. And as the old saying goes, "there ain't no accountin' for taste".

I don't expect every potential Domina to "love" my taste for CD and being femmed. Since half the fun...from my end...is seeing the excitement and satisfaction in her eyes, her lack of enthusiasm would kill my enjoyment of it. It's better to concentrate on what we DO have in common, or find another prospect.

Of course, what BBBTBW suggests is the best course of all: be open-minded, creative and imaginative. These are characteristics I look for in a Domina, regardless of what kinks that she likes or doesn't like. I hope they are qualities I offer as a submissive in return. Without those qualities in both partners, any activity and relationship will get pretty stale awfully fast.

< Message edited by AFlyInYourWeb -- 11/4/2007 12:32:52 PM >

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/6/2007 7:36:01 PM

ElginSub

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LotusSong, first off the link to "trains" is beautiful. You have wonderful insight into others as well as Yourself.
As a sub i have always been directed on how to dress iat mistress'es direction. Always dressed in her presence. I started out young and was always presented with panties to wear. They were either laid out for me, or directed to wear them by verbal or written direction. I have been dressed as a maid to serve and entertain, but not dressed sissy in frilly femine clothes . Depending on the mood of my Mistress.i have been disciplined and humiliated by having to wear fem attire in public. I think that having my Mistress tell me what to wear at that moment sets the tone and that she will enjoy things to the fullest. As with MS Lotus Song, simple panty design (french cut is my favorite) was alays preferred by myself and my Mistress.
I wear an apron and the maids uniform quite often to clean though.

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RE: Sissies' Acceptance Problem - 11/6/2007 10:24:30 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear LotusSong, Ladies and Gentlemen;

In my particular area and in the ClubFEM groups; there are those who are in many 'stages' of cross dressing and do so for as many reasons as there are men who wear women's clothing and props.

What really is an issue of 'acceptance' is their 'attitude' as well as their 'behavior' as individuals.
I want to deal with the person --not deal with the issue of 'clothes.' Some won't go naked and have to wear clothes as to behave submissive. These lads don't help anybody with the needed help to fix food, place food on the buffet table, etc. Just seem to wilt if they are expected to do anything other than to parade their frocks. In a D/s or M/s theme structure--they aren't either dominant or submissive--just lurking and or self absorbed. There are lads who dress but, bust their bottoms to be helpful, to be good company and they are wonderful to be with.

I am not one to be forcing myself fully as to change a person's individuality. However, some do their dead level best to force their fetish and choices in other's faces.

Those who have been successful in an enviorment like ClubFEM know that just as much as they want/need fun and good times; so do the other side of the exchange. Otherwise, it becomes a negative experience or have become involved in another Service TOP/Do Me situation.

More than anything -- it is the individual's attitude and behavior which turns me off or on. I am not going to be around a man who is grumpy and has an attitude/behavior problem and is dressing in female frocks for their own personal giggles and grins.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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